Wine Pairing Help

Lots of choices- Champagne, Vouvray Sec, Albariño, et al. The Verdejo should be fine too.

Champers or a semi-dry Riesling

Swordfish should be a fine substitution for that recipe. have made a Tuscan style swordfish with roasted fennel in the past and it is excellent

Would imagine the Chablis would go well with this

Thanks for the input. Change of plans in that I won't be making this tonight, but I'll likely make next weekend -- so keep the suggestions coming.

If I could ask one thing. While all the suggestions so far are probably great as far as pairings, it would be most helpful if suggestions for wines could be limited to those mentioned in my original post as I'd prefer to drink something I already have. Not sure it matters, but if helpful the exact wines referenced in OP are:

2007 Spreitzer Oestricher Lenchen Erstes Gewachs Riesling
2008 Francis Blanchet Pouilly Fume Cuvee Silice
2009 Ossian Verdejo
2012 Birgit Eichinger Gruner Veltliner Wechselberg

Have a couple Chablis to choose from -- nothing outstanding though. Also probably have an Austrian Riesling of pretty good quality I can pull.

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Parcival:


Would imagine the Chablis would go well with this

If there's a fish that Chablis does not pair well with, I have yet to discover it (the exception, of course, is fish prepared in a tomato sauce or something equally offensive to Chablis). I often serve fish (salmon, snapper, trout, halibut, cod, char, sea bass-- almost any fish that can provide a decent sized fillet) on a bed of roasted vegetables; most white wines and Brut Champagnes work well, though our favourite accompaniment is Chablis.

Ok,

Here is the thing. Artichoke.

I mean... artichoke.

I have only ever found two types of still wine to pair well with dishes with roasted artichokes -- (drier side) Gewurztraminer and (drier side) Alsatian Pinot Gris.

Every other wine I've tried has tended toward bitter-sour-sweet when paired with artichokes, except, when the artichokes are overwhelmed with dairy fat. (eg. a risotto.) And frequently the artichoke has made the wine seem thinner.

The Gruner would be awesome with the fennel and baby carrots but depending upon how pronounced the artichoke is, it could go south.

I would not consider a Pouilly Fume nor a Chablis. A Verdejo *might* be ok.

Riesling is an interesting option. I would side with the Austrian, assuming it is just off-dry and has a decent richness to it.

A young, not-super-brut Blanc de Blancs Champagne could work as well.

As for the fish -- I've gotta for once disagree with Parcival and suggest that if you can't source halibut you stay away from traditionally "steak" fish, even white meat ones, so no swordfish. It is hard to know what you have access to, but some fish I would subsitute

-Most flatfish large enough to produce the fillet sizes you want. Obviously, most other flatfish are thin and you'll have to make some cooking adjustments, but that will be true in one way or another for any of the fish I list. True Dover Sole, Petrale Sole, and almost anything that says sole but is actually flounder could work.

-Mahi-Mahi

-Grouper

-Any Sea Bass (esp. ethically and sustainably caught Chilean)

-John Dory (aka St. Pierre)

-Black Cod

-Skate

-Ono/Wahoo and Opakapaka would also work though if you can't source Halibut it's even more unlikely you'll be able to find these.

Just based upon the dish and my perceived ideas about what you might have access to, I would strongly consider Mahi-Mahi as a fish I think would work well with that dish and that you can probably source.

Thanks for the great thoughts Winetarelli -- especially regarding fish substitutes. I have limited experience with preparing fish at home -- mostly the usual suspects grilled or baked. Columbus, Ohio, as you might imagine, is not an ideal locale for sourcing fish. The "best" shop with the broadest selection that is relatively close to me is probably a place called The Fish Guys (believe that's the name) in The North Market, but it is pretty expensive and I've not been overly impressed with the quality in the past. But I'll probably go there as it has the highest likely of having what I need (or some of the substitutes you mention) and the only other options are really Whole Foods or grocery chains.

The artichoke is the reason I posted on some help with pairing. The recipe is from the Tre Vigne cookbook and sounded interesting, so what the heck thought I'd try it. Based upon your thoughts, I find myself leaning toward the Gruner. It also has the benefit of being inexpensive, so if not a great pairing -- no harm no foul. I recently had a 2012 Hirsch Gruner and that showed a bit of creaminess -- though not as much as I know at least one of the Austrian Rieslings I have will exhibit (but those bottles are probably 3 to 4 times more expensive, so I would prefer to save for a safer pairing). It will also allow me to get a further reading on the quality of the 2012 vintage to decide if I want to look at sourcing some better bottles of Gruner from the vintage -- as the Hirsch was really very good for a $15 bottle of wine.

Glad I could be of help!

In California, Whole Foods generally has decent fish selection and quality; I don't know if that would be true in central Ohio.

Also, upon reflection, even though I listed them first for obvious reasons, I might consider other flat fish more as a last resort depending upon your preparations. True Dover sole is probably too expensive, difficult to source, yummy on its own, and delicately flavored to be considered. Petrale sole would definitely work, but I don't think it leaves CA very often. And, while flavor-wise the other flounders and flat fish (grey sole, lemon sole "dover sole", etc) would work, I think cooking might be too different from the Halibut recipie to work. (Most of these other fish fall apart in a sautee pan too easily and quickly -- when I cook with them it is generally in the oven.)

Hirsch and Brundelmeyer were my first serious introductions to good Austrian Gruner. Warm place in my heart for them.

[QUOTE]
As for the fish -- I've gotta for once disagree with Parcival and suggest that if you can't source halibut you stay away from traditionally "steak" fish, even white meat ones, so no swordfish. It is hard to know what you have access to, but some fish I would subsitute

QUOTE]

Winetarelli . . . I validate that disagreement! But, now my interested in piqued. Tell me your thoughts on the swordfish/halibut substitution and why you think swordfish would not be a great substitution.

I often make that substitution but generally for "on-the-grill preparations where these two fish may be a little more on equal playing fields. But, interested in your perspective here

Swordfish is much meatier than halibut. I think the reason may be iron content.
A couple more suggestions for substitution are lingcod and a fish that has been showing up in Seattle, but apparently comes from South America, corvina.

quote:

Originally posted by pape du neuf:
Swordfish is much meatier than halibut. I think the reason may be iron content.
A couple more suggestions for substitution are lingcod and a fish that has been showing up in Seattle, but apparently comes from South America, corvina.

Lingcod is a great substitute but a bit flakier. The best textural match may Bluenose seabass from New Zealand but I've been hesitant as its reproductive capacity is not well understood. Halibut doesn't taste like much so just about any white fish should do.

quote:

Originally posted by Parcival:
[QUOTE]
As for the fish -- I've gotta for once disagree with Parcival and suggest that if you can't source halibut you stay away from traditionally "steak" fish, even white meat ones, so no swordfish. It is hard to know what you have access to, but some fish I would subsitute

QUOTE]

Winetarelli . . . I validate that disagreement! But, now my interested in piqued. Tell me your thoughts on the swordfish/halibut substitution and why you think swordfish would not be a great substitution.

I often make that substitution but generally for "on-the-grill preparations where these two fish may be a little more on equal playing fields. But, interested in your perspective here

Halibut is a bit milder and sweeter. Has a bit more fat. The meat flakes perpendicular to the skin.

Swordfish is meatier, more grainy texture, less fat and flakes in radiating concentric circles from the spine. Cooked the flavor is closer to albacore tuna than it is flatfish which makes sense since it's closer related to the tuna species.

winetarelli are you from CA? For some reason I pegged you as an East Coaster.

quote:

Originally posted by Danyull:
winetarelli are you from CA? For some reason I pegged you as an East Coaster.

I am an East Coaster living in CA

quote:

Originally posted by winetarelli:

quote:

Originally posted by Danyull:
winetarelli are you from CA? For some reason I pegged you as an East Coaster.

I am an East Coaster living in CA

Where? You going to join one of our OLs?

quote:

Originally posted by Danyull:

quote:

Originally posted by winetarelli:

quote:

Originally posted by Danyull:
winetarelli are you from CA? For some reason I pegged you as an East Coaster.

I am an East Coaster living in CA

Where? You going to join one of our OLs?

Down south, I'm afraid. A little north of LA. At some point I'll come up and join, perhaps. TPE and I have met a few times.

quote:

Halibut is a bit milder and sweeter. Has a bit more fat. The meat flakes perpendicular to the skin.

Swordfish is meatier, more grainy texture, less fat and flakes in radiating concentric circles from the spine. Cooked the flavor is closer to albacore tuna than it is flatfish which makes sense since it's closer related to the tuna species.

Exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by winetarelli:

quote:

Originally posted by Danyull:

quote:

Originally posted by winetarelli:

quote:

Originally posted by Danyull:
winetarelli are you from CA? For some reason I pegged you as an East Coaster.

I am an East Coaster living in CA

Where? You going to join one of our OLs?

Down south, I'm afraid. A little north of LA. At some point I'll come up and join, perhaps. TPE and I have met a few times.

I hope a Northern Rhone offline is in order! Although, there's pretty much just 1 other guy besides you in CA who I know is in love with the stuff. Although, the guy I know is pretty hardcore, bought 5 cases of Jamet 2010 including 2 of Cote Brune.

Screw the "recipe" and get whatever fish is freshest and best. Then drink whatever wine you like most. Some wines taste like artichokes, e.g. some Sauvignon Blancs, but that doesn't make them great pairings.

Roasted fennel has a licorice kind of note and works with many reds. Roasted carrots, provided they get caramelized, can also work with either reds or whites.

I'd get some medium-bodied tart red like classic Rioja, Barbera, Sangiovese, and through a few tomatoes into the recipe and then I wouldn't be stuck with hunting up some white. If you end up with a fish that doesn't have a lot of flavor, or that is really subtle, amp up the sauce!

quote:

Originally posted by Danyull:
Although, there's pretty much just 1 other guy besides you in CA who I know is in love with the stuff. Although, the guy I know is pretty hardcore, bought 5 cases of Jamet 2010 including 2 of Cote Brune.

quote:

Originally posted by winetarelli:

As for the fish -- I've gotta for once disagree with Parcival and suggest that if you can't source halibut you stay away from traditionally "steak" fish, even white meat ones, so no swordfish. It is hard to know what you have access to, but some fish I would subsitute

-Most flatfish large enough to produce the fillet sizes you want. Obviously, most other flatfish are thin and you'll have to make some cooking adjustments, but that will be true in one way or another for any of the fish I list. True Dover Sole, Petrale Sole, and almost anything that says sole but is actually flounder could work.

-Mahi-Mahi

-Grouper

-Any Sea Bass (esp. ethically and sustainably caught Chilean)

-John Dory (aka St. Pierre)

-Black Cod

-Skate

-Ono/Wahoo and Opakapaka would also work though if you can't source Halibut it's even more unlikely you'll be able to find these.

Just based upon the dish and my perceived ideas about what you might have access to, I would strongly consider Mahi-Mahi as a fish I think would work well with that dish and that you can probably source.

chilean sea bass isnt' a sea bass and the meat is no where similar as it's really nice and cartilagey (i made up that word) a similar fish would be the wings of a Skate.

but mahi mahi/john dory/opa/ono is like a "steaky/flaky" fish and not really like halibut at all. it flakes, but it'll tastes closer to that swordfish

for halibut, i like branzino, any sort of sole as winteralli suggests, black sea bass, (striped bass is that meaty/flaky kind fo fish) tilapia, fluke or cods.

or if you wanan try something cool, catfish =) it's neither flaky or meaty, but more chewy.

Sturgeon has kind of a fun texture too. Pretty cheap at the chinese markets around here. Live too.

quote:

Originally posted by Danyull:
Sturgeon has kind of a fun texture too. Pretty cheap at the chinese markets around here. Live too.

sturgeon is like mackerel if i recall .. tho, i believe the iron in the meat gives an off putting flavor to alot of red wines for pairing.

in which case, i would do sake.

quote:

but mahi mahi/john dory/opakapaka/ono is like a "steaky/flaky" fish and not really like halibut at all. it flakes, but it'll tastes closer to that swordfish

Different type of fish, but they work similarly in cooking to Halibut. Mahi-mahi is slightly more flavorful, but they are all very light and clean in taste and all take to a variety of cooking styles. I think none taste like swordfish at all. In fact, in Hawaii the most common way of preparing Opakapaka I've seen is simply in piccata; whereas John Dory is frequently served like true Dover Sole, basically just in brown butter with lemon.

Another fish that has been showing up at Whole Foods recently is paiche. It is a fresh water fish from South America, similar in taste and texture to halibut or sea bass. I think it would be a more appropriate substitution than swordfish or tuna.

I bought some two weeks ago and pan seared, and think it would go well in your menu with the roasted vegetables. I think the Gruner or Verdejo would be great pairings. We paired it with a Bedrock Compagni Portis.

quote:

Originally posted by winetarelli:

quote:

but mahi mahi/john dory/opakapaka/ono is like a "steaky/flaky" fish and not really like halibut at all. it flakes, but it'll tastes closer to that swordfish

Different type of fish, but they work similarly in cooking to Halibut. Mahi-mahi is slightly more flavorful, but they are all very light and clean in taste and all take to a variety of cooking styles. I think none taste like swordfish at all. In fact, in Hawaii the most common way of preparing Opakapaka I've seen is simply in piccata; whereas John Dory is frequently served like true Dover Sole, basically just in brown butter with lemon.

i'm talking about texture though

they have a fibery texture as oppose to a flaky gelantonous texture

I made the dish Friday night. I found sustainably caught Chilean sea bass steaks. Fish was seasoned with freshly ground pepper and sea salt, and herbes de Provence and it came out perfect and quite tasty. I went with Gruner and it was an OK match. For my tastes, it was the fennel bulb that caused more problems with the pairing than the artichoke.

I doubt I'll make this again -- the flavors didn't really all come together for me. But it was a good exercise on trying different flavors together, and I will definitely be using herbes de Provence to season fish more often. Thanks for all the help. I learned a lot about fish through this discussion, which will be helpful moving forward.

quote:

Originally posted by eyesintime:
I made the dish Friday night. I found sustainably caught Chilean sea bass steaks. Fish was seasoned with freshly ground pepper and sea salt, and herbes de Provence and it came out perfect and quite tasty. I went with Gruner and it was an OK match. For my tastes, it was the fennel bulb that caused more problems with the pairing than the artichoke.

I doubt I'll make this again -- the flavors didn't really all come together for me. But it was a good exercise on trying different flavors together, and I will definitely be using herbes de Provence to season fish more often. Thanks for all the help. I learned a lot about fish through this discussion, which will be helpful moving forward.

white port and fennel..

give it a shot

it's a great pairing. (or a 20 year old tawny if you cant find the white port)