With the NBA season about to conclude, I thought this might be a fun thread to start.

If the list of the 50 greatest players in NBA history were reconfigured today, which players would you remove (from the list compiled 17 years ago) and which would you add?

I would immediately add the following: Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Lebron James, Jason Kidd, and Steve Nash.

Borderline additions (for me): Paul Pierce, Dirk Nowitzki, Dwayne Wade, and Allen Iverson.

Determining which players to remove from the list is much more difficult (based on the fact that I never saw many of them play). I believe that some older players should remain not only for their talent and achievements but also for historical context.
Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2012FinalsMVPisclutch:
Who to get rid of is tough but in today's championship or bust world you could start with players who never won it all.


yer crazy,

Barkley,
Baylor,
Ewing,
Malone,
Marovich

they are easily top 50 to play the game

and amongst champ winners, i would take nate archibald off
also dave cowens. he would get owned in today's league
bill walton i feel wouldn't do well today either. he's like a luc longley of his days.
I'd definitely add Nowitzki to your initial list with Kobe, Duncan, etc. He changed the way you saw a 6 foot 10 big man. I'd also add Kevin Durant. He's not the total package that LBJ or Kobe are (specifically the defense and rebounding), but he's only been in the league a couple of years and he can definitely improve on that end (like Kobe did).

And side note on Walton...I think the exact opposite. I feel that guys like Walton, Hakeem, McHale, etc. would all be amazing today b/c there are no big men these days that actually have any solid post moves. Its sad when Dwight Howard is the best center in the league, and his post game is horrendous. Just watching Tim Duncan school Bosh on some moves early in Game 6 reminded me of how much I love talented big men.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2012FinalsMVPisclutch:
Who to get rid of is tough but in today's championship or bust world you could start with players who never won it all.


yer crazy,

Barkley,
Baylor,
Ewing,
Malone,
Marovich

they are easily top 50 to play the game

and amongst champ winners, i would take nate archibald off
also dave cowens. he would get owned in today's league
bill walton i feel wouldn't do well today either. he's like a luc longley of his days.

Wow, I actually agree with g-man on something.
Kobe, Duncan, and Lebron for sure. Nowitzki, Kidd, Nash -- eh. You're telling me they're better than Bird and Stockton?

Garnett is borderline. Durant kinda reminds me of Gervin based on limited highlights of Gervin or maybe Dominique.
quote:
Originally posted by Azwiese:

And side note on Walton...I think the exact opposite. I feel that guys like Walton, Hakeem, McHale, etc. would all be amazing today b/c there are no big men these days that actually have any solid post moves. Its sad when Dwight Howard is the best center in the league, and his post game is horrendous. Just watching Tim Duncan school Bosh on some moves early in Game 6 reminded me of how much I love talented big men.


you're doing a huge disservice lumping hakeem in any sort of conversation with walton (unless it ws a convo on how a big man can change the face of the game)

heck walton couldn't even stay on the court
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by Azwiese:

And side note on Walton...I think the exact opposite. I feel that guys like Walton, Hakeem, McHale, etc. would all be amazing today b/c there are no big men these days that actually have any solid post moves. Its sad when Dwight Howard is the best center in the league, and his post game is horrendous. Just watching Tim Duncan school Bosh on some moves early in Game 6 reminded me of how much I love talented big men.


you're doing a huge disservice lumping hakeem in any sort of conversation with walton (unless it ws a convo on how a big man can change the face of the game)

heck walton couldn't even stay on the court

Olajuwan is #4 on my list of all-time NBA centers.

He completely dominated the other notable big men of his era (Robinson, O'Neal, and Ewing).
quote:
Originally posted by gigabit:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by Azwiese:

And side note on Walton...I think the exact opposite. I feel that guys like Walton, Hakeem, McHale, etc. would all be amazing today b/c there are no big men these days that actually have any solid post moves. Its sad when Dwight Howard is the best center in the league, and his post game is horrendous. Just watching Tim Duncan school Bosh on some moves early in Game 6 reminded me of how much I love talented big men.


you're doing a huge disservice lumping hakeem in any sort of conversation with walton (unless it ws a convo on how a big man can change the face of the game)

heck walton couldn't even stay on the court

Olajuwan is #4 on my list of all-time NBA centers.

He completely dominated the other notable big men of his era (Robinson, O'Neal, and Ewing).


we'll have to disagree with Shaq.

Nobody dominated the real superman
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleD:
Kobe, Duncan, and Lebron for sure. Nowitzki, Kidd, Nash -- eh. You're telling me they're better than Bird and Stockton?

Garnett is borderline. Durant kinda reminds me of Gervin based on limited highlights of Gervin or maybe Dominique.


there's already someone in the top 50 that does everything that kidd ever did times 3.

Oscar robertson
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by gigabit:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by Azwiese:

And side note on Walton...I think the exact opposite. I feel that guys like Walton, Hakeem, McHale, etc. would all be amazing today b/c there are no big men these days that actually have any solid post moves. Its sad when Dwight Howard is the best center in the league, and his post game is horrendous. Just watching Tim Duncan school Bosh on some moves early in Game 6 reminded me of how much I love talented big men.


you're doing a huge disservice lumping hakeem in any sort of conversation with walton (unless it ws a convo on how a big man can change the face of the game)

heck walton couldn't even stay on the court

Olajuwan is #4 on my list of all-time NBA centers.

He completely dominated the other notable big men of his era (Robinson, O'Neal, and Ewing).


we'll have to disagree with Shaq.

Nobody dominated the real superman

Go back and watch the '95 Finals. The "S" was on Hakeem's jersey the entire series.
quote:
Originally posted by gigabit:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by gigabit:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by Azwiese:

And side note on Walton...I think the exact opposite. I feel that guys like Walton, Hakeem, McHale, etc. would all be amazing today b/c there are no big men these days that actually have any solid post moves. Its sad when Dwight Howard is the best center in the league, and his post game is horrendous. Just watching Tim Duncan school Bosh on some moves early in Game 6 reminded me of how much I love talented big men.


you're doing a huge disservice lumping hakeem in any sort of conversation with walton (unless it ws a convo on how a big man can change the face of the game)

heck walton couldn't even stay on the court

Olajuwan is #4 on my list of all-time NBA centers.

He completely dominated the other notable big men of his era (Robinson, O'Neal, and Ewing).


we'll have to disagree with Shaq.

Nobody dominated the real superman

Go back and watch the '95 Finals. The "S" was on Hakeem's jersey the entire series.


+1
Shaq, the last "true" center?

No way Nash, Dirk, or Kidd supplant anyone in the top 50.

Garnett is interesting, however.

Walton raises the spector of how long someone has to be great in order to qualify. Barring his foot and dumb diet, he is easily in my top fifty. But, then, barring other calamities, Mark Fidrych and JR Richard would be top 50 all time pitchers. So, I leave including Walton as a personal choice.
To be fair to Shaq in the '95 Finals, it was only his second or third year in the NBA. I think it's a different story if Shaq was five years older and with a much better coach.
quote:
Originally posted by gigabit:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by gigabit:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by Azwiese:

And side note on Walton...I think the exact opposite. I feel that guys like Walton, Hakeem, McHale, etc. would all be amazing today b/c there are no big men these days that actually have any solid post moves. Its sad when Dwight Howard is the best center in the league, and his post game is horrendous. Just watching Tim Duncan school Bosh on some moves early in Game 6 reminded me of how much I love talented big men.


you're doing a huge disservice lumping hakeem in any sort of conversation with walton (unless it ws a convo on how a big man can change the face of the game)

heck walton couldn't even stay on the court

Olajuwan is #4 on my list of all-time NBA centers.

He completely dominated the other notable big men of his era (Robinson, O'Neal, and Ewing).


we'll have to disagree with Shaq.

Nobody dominated the real superman

Go back and watch the '95 Finals. The "S" was on Hakeem's jersey the entire series.


I grew up watching that series

Dominating is not what comes to mind between shaq and hakeem. It was a fantastic display of raw power vs pure finesse.
Just to be clear, Shaq was on the original 50 player list. TNT had a panel select 10 more in 2006 (ten years after the 50 list). They added Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, Connie Hawkins, Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd, Bob McAdoo, Reggie Miller, Gary Payton, and Dominique Wilkins.

Neil
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2012FinalsMVPisclutch:
Orlando with Shaq and Penny is one of those all time what of teams. Sad we never got to see them grow together. Frown


How about if Orlando kept Chris Webber, right out of Michigan with Shaq?!? I always wondered about that pairing.
quote:
Originally posted by Stefania Wine:
Shaq is the best basketball player ever who had no real aptitude for the game.

That sums it up pretty well for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Stefania Wine:
Shaq is the best basketball player ever who had no real aptitude for the game.


So interestingly enough, I saw him play several times in high school because the little brother of a friend was the center for a school in the same district. He was about 6'10" or so back then, and pretty skinny, but he actually played with quite a bit of skill. I think as he got bigger, and BIGGER, he lost a lot of the pure athleticism he once had and made up for it with size and brute force. Granted most of us aren't quite as "nimble" or athletic as we were at a younger age, but I remember seeing him back then and thinking he had a pretty significant level of skill and ability for his age.
quote:
Originally posted by Wine Sparty:
quote:
Originally posted by Stefania Wine:
Shaq is the best basketball player ever who had no real aptitude for the game.

That sums it up pretty well for me.


Shaq was a fabulous passer from the post.

He absoluetly had aptitude for the low post position and watching the court looking out from the basket area.
Good list, gigabit. I would make the following changes.

quote:
Originally posted by gigabit:

I would immediately add the following: Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Lebron James, Jason Kidd, and Steve Nash.

Borderline additions (for me): Paul Pierce, Dirk Nowitzki, Dwayne Wade, and Allen Iverson .



The remaining borderline adds are all NBA Finals MVPs, certainly a credential worthy of consideration.
i think you start with the players that just are absolute locks- it cannot be disputed:
Jordan
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Kareem
West
Baylor
Robertson
Olajuwon
Duncan
M. Malone
Shaq
Lebron
Bird
Dr. J
Havlicek
K. Malone
Stockton
I. Thomas
Pippen
Mikan
McHale
Kobe
Dirk
KG
Barry
Cousy
Gervin
Hayes
Wes Unseld
Monroe
Maravich
Nash
Pettit
Iverson
Kidd
Worthy
Reggie Miller

Guys whose games don't really stand the test of time and are on the bubble now include:
Arizin (off)
Bing (off)
Cunningham (off)
DeBusschere (off)
Drexler (off)
Ewing (borderline)
Frazier (borderline)
Greer (off)
Jones (off)
Jerry Lucas (stays)
Parish (off)
Reed (borderline)
Admiral (stays)
Schayes (borderline)
Sharman (off)
Barkley (stays)
Thurmond (stays)
Walton (had the talent, lacked the longevity- borderline)
Wilkens (off)
Cowens (off)

Guys who were in the middle of their career at the time of the list and are now retired and in kind of a no-man's land:
Gary Payton (borderline)
Kevin Johnson (no)
Mitch Richmond (no)
CWebb (no)
Mourning (no)
Mullin (no)
Rodman (borderline)
Mutombo (no)
Horry (no)

The list of locks is 38... adding in the bubble guys and the list stretches to 42... amongst current players that are not on the list that could make a case:
KD (yes, already)
Pierce (yes)
Wade (yes)
Allen (yes)
Melo (no)
Pau (no)
Ginobili (borderline)
CP3 (no)
Vince Carter (no)
So right now there are 46 guys that deserve to be on the list... Ewing, Reed, GP, Rodman, Schayes, Ginobili and Walton are borderline... sorry Reed, Manu, Walt and GP, but you are odd-men out.
Last edited by tpewinedrinker
Solid, well thought out list but I gotta bring up a few points.

Reggie Miller as a lock, I just dont know. He only has 5 all star appearances, no MVPs or Finals appearances. Best he ever did was 16th in 97-98 and 13th in 99-00. If you are never in the top 10 players in the league I just dont see how you can be a top 50 all time player.

Im also not sure you can put Durant in already. He's only been in the league 6 years. Its been a very impressive 6 years but its still just 6 years with no Championships or MVP's, although he has finished second 3 times. I think in 3 or 4 years he is an obvious lock but its just too early.

I think Pierce, Wade and Allen are in the lock category.
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2012FinalsMVPisclutch:
Solid, well thought out list but I gotta bring up a few points.

Reggie Miller as a lock, I just dont know. He only has 5 all star appearances, no MVPs or Finals appearances. Best he ever did was 16th in 97-98 and 13th in 99-00. If you are never in the top 10 players in the league I just dont see how you can be a top 50 all time player.

Im also not sure you can put Durant in already. He's only been in the league 6 years. Its been a very impressive 6 years but its still just 6 years with no Championships or MVP's, although he has finished second 3 times. I think in 3 or 4 years he is an obvious lock but its just too early.

I think Pierce, Wade and Allen are in the lock category.

As for Miller, in my opinion he is more deserving than Allen. Reggie was a tenacious defender, one of the all-time great FT, 3Pt, and clutch shooters, and the hands-down second best SG of his generation behind a certain guy named Jordan. He was also "the man" on every Pacers team; Allen has never been more than the 3rd best player on the championship level teams. And if Walton made the top 50 with really only 6 years of production, than there is room for KD, whose 6 years in the league have been at a historic level.
So, I just looked up Walton on Basketball reference and I didnt realize the extent his injuries limited him. Im not sure you can put him on the top 50 list. Dude was just never on the court. He does have an MVP, Finals MVP and ring though.

Allen is pretty clutch 3pt shooter in his right. We all just saw that. Allen also has twice as many all star appearances, 9th and 11th place MVP finishes and two rings. He might not have been the man on either championship team but he was one of the men on the BOS team and was big part of this Heat team. In today's game rings are pretty much the only thing that matter. Allen has two. I think thats a pretty big separator. Also, Allen was statistically better than Miller at the 3 and FTs.

Miller
3pt made - 2560
3pt % - 39.5%
FT% - 88.8%

Allen
3pt made - 2857
3pt% - 40.1%
FT% - 89.4%


Durants six years are historic but look what Dwight Howard did in his first 6-7 years. Dude was pretty amazing. Would you put him in the top 50 now? Hell no. Those 6 years dont make a career. Neither do Durants. I think Durant will eventually be a top 10 all time player but he's got to do it longer than 6 years.
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2012FinalsMVPisclutch:
So, I just looked up Walton on Basketball reference and I didnt realize the extent his injuries limited him. Im not sure you can put him on the top 50 list. Dude was just never on the court. He does have an MVP, Finals MVP and ring though.

Allen is pretty clutch 3pt shooter in his right. We all just saw that. Allen also has twice as many all star appearances, 9th and 11th place MVP finishes and two rings. He might not have been the man on either championship team but he was one of the men on the BOS team and was big part of this Heat team. In today's game rings are pretty much the only thing that matter. Allen has two. I think thats a pretty big separator. Also, Allen was statistically better than Miller at the 3 and FTs.

Miller
3pt made - 2560
3pt % - 39.5%
FT% - 88.8%

Allen
3pt made - 2857
3pt% - 40.1%
FT% - 89.4%


Durants six years are historic but look what Dwight Howard did in his first 6-7 years. Dude was pretty amazing. Would you put him in the top 50 now? Hell no. Those 6 years dont make a career. Neither do Durants. I think Durant will eventually be a top 10 all time player but he's got to do it longer than 6 years.

Good debate, but two quick things: 1) Miller played in an era where the 3pt line was 1.5 feet behind where it currently sits (that makes a HUGE difference); and 2) with KD I am using the Terrell Davis blueprint- if KD walked away from the game tomorrow, his accomplishments would stand up for a LONG time, and so I think he gets the benefit of the doubt. Furthermore, I am comparing KD to his peers like CP3 and Melo who both have a longer body of work, but KD's success has been at such a level, that although it is for a shorter duration, it is far more significant.
quote:
Originally posted by TPEwinedrinker:

Good debate, but two quick things: 1) Miller played in an era where the 3pt line was 1.5 feet behind where it currently sits (that makes a HUGE difference); and 2) with KD I am using the Terrell Davis blueprint- if KD walked away from the game tomorrow, his accomplishments would stand up for a LONG time, and so I think he gets the benefit of the doubt. Furthermore, I am comparing KD to his peers like CP3 and Melo who both have a longer body of work, but KD's success has been at such a level, that although it is for a shorter duration, it is far more significant.


pretty sure they overlapped and i alwasy recall allen being a crazy good shooter and even better then miller.

miller solidified his existence in game 1 of knicks series where he was oh so clutch with 8 pts in 9 seconds. A truly amazing series of events.

But besides that, I'd put miller on the borderline as I'd agree with LBJ there that if miller is lock then allen deserves a mention.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
surprised no love for vc15

never saw anybody dunk OVER a 7 ft in a real game


Yeah but isnt that pretty how his whole game is regarded? He is looked at as a super dunker whose game as a whole under achieved relative to expectations. Not saying that is accurate but I feel thats how he is portayed and that portayal aint gonna get ya on any all time list.
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2012FinalsMVPisclutch:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
surprised no love for vc15

never saw anybody dunk OVER a 7 ft in a real game


Yeah but isnt that pretty how his whole game is regarded? He is looked at as a super dunker whose game as a whole under achieved relative to expectations. Not saying that is accurate but I feel thats how he is portayed and that portayal aint gonna get ya on any all time list.


look at his stats and tell me otherwise =)
Like I said, Im not saying that is accurate but that is how he is viewed.

Also, can you really be considered one of the top 50 players of all time if you never got out of round 2 of the playoffs except once when you were riding on Dwight Howards coat tails at age 33?
Last edited by jburman82
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2XFinalsMVPisclutch:
Like I said, Im not saying that is accurate but that is how he is viewed.

Also, can you really be considered one of the top 50 players of all time if you never got out of round 2 of the playoffs except once when you were riding on Dwight Howards coat tails at age 33?


really?

how many rings did lebron win before he got bosh and wade?
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2XFinalsMVPisclutch:
Like I said, Im not saying that is accurate but that is how he is viewed.

Also, can you really be considered one of the top 50 players of all time if you never got out of round 2 of the playoffs except once when you were riding on Dwight Howards coat tails at age 33?



really?

how many rings did lebron win before he got bosh and wade?

James took the Cavaliers to the Finals; a team which, otherwise, had no business being there.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2XFinalsMVPisclutch:
Like I said, Im not saying that is accurate but that is how he is viewed.

Also, can you really be considered one of the top 50 players of all time if you never got out of round 2 of the playoffs except once when you were riding on Dwight Howards coat tails at age 33?


really?

how many rings did lebron win before he got bosh and wade?


This was a seriously bad comparision to make.

In Vince Carter's 15 year career he made the playoffs 7 times getting to the Eastern Conference Finals once. He was an All Star 8 times and his best MVP finish was 10th. He was All NBA second team once and third team once.

In the Lebron's firts 7 years in Cleveland he went to the playoffs 5 times including 2 Eastern Conference Finals and 1 NBA Finals. He was an All Star 6 times, All Star game MVP twice and won 2 NBA MVP awards, while finishing in the top 10 EVERY SINGLE SEASON. He was also All NBA first or second team 6 times and twice All Defensive team.
quote:
Originally posted by gigabit:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2XFinalsMVPisclutch:
Like I said, Im not saying that is accurate but that is how he is viewed.

Also, can you really be considered one of the top 50 players of all time if you never got out of round 2 of the playoffs except once when you were riding on Dwight Howards coat tails at age 33?



really?

how many rings did lebron win before he got bosh and wade?

James took the Cavaliers to the Finals; a team which, otherwise, had no business being there.


realy?

cuz round 1 and 2 were both 41-41 borderline teams that really had no business being in the playoffs either.

Detroit was a legit defensive team with no scoring options so when someone like lebron gets in there, it's the perfect kind of match up cleveland can hope for.

what happened all the other years in cleveland?
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2XFinalsMVPisclutch:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by LBJ2XFinalsMVPisclutch:
Like I said, Im not saying that is accurate but that is how he is viewed.

Also, can you really be considered one of the top 50 players of all time if you never got out of round 2 of the playoffs except once when you were riding on Dwight Howards coat tails at age 33?


really?

how many rings did lebron win before he got bosh and wade?


This was a seriously bad comparision to make.

In Vince Carter's 15 year career he made the playoffs 7 times getting to the Eastern Conference Finals once. He was an All Star 8 times and his best MVP finish was 10th. He was All NBA second team once and third team once.

In the Lebron's firts 7 years in Cleveland he went to the playoffs 5 times including 2 Eastern Conference Finals and 1 NBA Finals. He was an All Star 6 times, All Star game MVP twice and won 2 NBA MVP awards, while finishing in the top 10 EVERY SINGLE SEASON. He was also All NBA first or second team 6 times and twice All Defensive team.


i didn't say that VC is the #1-5 of top 50 players, only that he should get a mention. And if the criteria you used to judge VC15 not being a top 50 player is that he wasn't able to take a team out of round 2, I'm saying the VC took a team that was much crappier team then the 2006-2007 cavs to the playoffs.

when a 37 yr old charles oakley is your starting center and you still make the playoffs. Yes that was all VC15.
I did give VC his proper due... I mentioned him in the last post on page 1 and said he deserves mention but doesn't deserve to be in the top 50. He warrants serious consideration for top 75. I also said that Ray Allen deserves to be in the top 50, but Reggie Miller also deserves to be in the top 50... Can't have one without the other.

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