Tips for building a wine cellar

I did something like that in my basement in Michigan a few years ago. More precisely, I had a couple carpenters built it for me. The temperature variation is almost exactly like you described for NH. It is a passive cellar with no cooling unit, and it works just fine.

The cellar was built in the north east corner of the basement and it has two outside walls and two inside walls. The inside walls are paneled and insulated, as is the ceiling. Instead of buying racks, the carpenters custom-build the racks, with some diamond bins, around the inside of the cellar. All racks are bolted to the walls for extra stability. The floor is terra-cotta tiled. It is a utilitarian cellar rather than one for show. I have been very satisfied with this set up.

These people make pretty good racks: www.wineracksamerica.com

But my carpenters were able to built the racks cheaper than I could buy them.

Hope this helps.

Doublestop gives good advice for a passive cellar. Temperature swings in the North are pretty similar, surely, depending on your construction similarities. Many of us get really obsessive about cellar temps. However, even a WS editor or two have cellar envionments not so 'sterile'. Temperature STABILITY is key as well as not light/vibration. And, like doublestop, I'm a big believer in a 'utilitarian cellar'. More for the more important things. Like what you're storing in it.

Another option for racking, which I've purchased from, is winerackstore. I've purchased their stand alone racks. The '144's' are a good value. However, I experienced, twice, missing screws, etc. Packing could be better for the small stuff. But good, stable racks. Lately, however, I've tended to store my 'long term' bottles in wood cases. I'm tired of buying racks for bottles I'm not pulling any time soon. It also helps with 'out of sight, out of mind'.

If you do a 'search' on this forum, you'll find MANY threads on the subject of cellaring, with a lot of good information. You're on the right track, marcb. Good luck.

Utilitarian is exactly what I want. More $$ for wine in my mind. But it sounds like you guys are not too worried about the 65-70 degree temp in the summertime. If I dont need to get a special door and cooling unit that means even more $$ for wine. I just want to make sure the bottles that Board-O et al are suggesting I keep for 10-15 yrs rest happily.
Thanks for the advice and I have checked out the websites already, just want to purchase from one with a good rep if you know what I mean.

I've spent some time thinking/working on the same. For (truly functional) racks, I've made the lower (~3 ft high) level by partitions with (1" x 1") slats that hold bordeaux-type cases. This gives me a bench, above which I have bins. These are diamond bins, made from 12" lumber (easy to construct, like the cardboard in cases). They can be made to fit any space, mine hold about two cases. Both ends of my cellar are done this way, with a single bottle rack facing the entrance, for easy grabs.

For temperature (me being more to the south), I had a local expert install an off-line purchased split refrigeration unit (not AC), to hold @ 55 degrees. If you are near that outside, it won't draw much current, except the evaporator will keep running and circulate the air, which helps if it gets too cold and if humidity gets higher. Costs about $750 for the mechanicals, w/controller (+/- 2 degrees). I can provide a site, than can calculate needs based on volume, but yours is slightly smaller than mine, and I use the smallest compressor made (1/5 hp).

Important is to install a vapor barrier (~ 5 mil poly or better), and maybe double insulate the ceiling, depending upon whether it is close to heat.

I have a regular, solid wood door for the cellar and it seems to work just fine. Right now, the furnace has been on for about a month and a half, and the cellar is at 55 degrees and 50% relative humidity. And it'll stay like that through the winter.

When summer comes, the cellar temperature will creep up to 65 degrees. From my research, a gradual swing of 10 to 15 degrees is OK; it's the sudden temperature change that you would want to avoid.

quote:

Originally posted by marcb7:
...it sounds like you guys are not too worried about the 65-70 degree temp in the summertime.

I keep a close eye on my temps throughout every season,and in the summer, I've never exceeded the 68 degree. One WS editor keeps his bottles at a consistent 64F and 70% humidity. MOST members with cellars keep their bottles in the 56 degree mark. I believe that, overall, this is a matter of personal belief and preference.

I'm in the process of selling my home and will eventually move into another. At that time I will indeed also build a cellar, and likely cool/humidify JUST to keep everything EXTRA consistant. However with my present set-up I'm not worried. IF I DID run into unstable temp swings I'd immediately store offsite.

My sophisticated cellar is in my basement, two outside walls with a window under a patio. I can crack the window a tad in winter and keep the temp 15*C (55F). Summertime it gets a bit warmer, say closer to 20C (65-70F). Seems to work fine. I'm glad though that most of you don't believe in stringent temp control cause I don't want to but a temperature control unit.

quote:

Originally posted by Bowser:
I'm glad though that most of you don't believe in stringent temp control cause I don't want to but a temperature control unit.

FWIW: Actually, Bowser, I think those that have posted today are the exception, rather than the norm. I find that MOST members of this forum have either built in dedicated cellars, with cooling & humidification, or wine cellar fridges.

I would not be comfortable at all in long term storage in a cellar that is reaching 70f in the summer.....65f yes, anything over that and I would install a cooling unit.

OK guys, say I do get a cooling unit. Which brand do you recommend? The vendors all say Whisper cool, is it the best or is it because its the most expensive? Have any of you had to change the unit due to wear and tear?

Vapor barriers - don’t build one without them.

quote:

Originally posted by marcb7:
OK guys, say I do get a cooling unit. Which brand do you recommend? The vendors all say Whisper cool, is it the best or is it because its the most expensive? Have any of you had to change the unit due to wear and tear?

Sorry....can't help you there as I have a Eurocave for home and use off-site storage for the rest.

Built my cellar two years back. Two walls are foundation; two are interior. The interior walls were already 2 x 6; the foundation walls had 2 x 4s which I added a 2 x 2 to get depth for R-30 insulation. Agree w/GD on the vapor barrier, and not just because I'm in GA where the women don't perspire, they glisten.

As for cooling units, I went the inexpensive way and installed an 8,000 BTU casement/slider AC unit, venting into a basement garage of approx. 3-4X the volume in the cellar room. Temps hold between 60-65 degs, and I'm sure the humidity is a bit lower than ideal but I'm not presently holding anything for 25 yrs. I built the racks myself based on those you can buy from WineRacks America; I figure I saved approx. 40% (my personal time notwithstanding). The finished results can be seen here.

quote:

Originally posted by kybo:
...I built the racks myself...[/URL]

Nicely done kybo!

What a timely thread - it finally got me off my duff to register for this great site - this is my first post.

I'm in the process of finishing off a room in my basement, I'm going to dedicate room for about 200 bottles in a passive cellar. In actually, this will be a closet on two outside walls, most of which is below grade. The rest of the room is studded out for drywall and a quiet area of the house. I am putting in insulation around the exterior walls for the rest of the room, I did this in another basement room and it helped keep things warmer.

Of course I'm not looking for warmer so what I was going to do for this closet was to leave the exterior two walls uninsulated and I'd put us some sort of insulation for the interior walls of the closet (they'll be facing the living area of the room. I will also put in a solid core door on the closet to help regulate temp. there - I'm picking up the door tonight.

So a couple of questions:
- Does my plan sound reasonable?
- Specifically regarding a vapor barrier - the exterior walls have a VB in the rest of the room, I was thinking of not putting in a VB on the exterior walls of the wine closet. However after reading this post, I'm thinking your suggestions would be to put one up. I was thinking of a VB on the interior walls - would the exterior need on as well?
- What about the ceiling of this closet? I was thinking of some simple insulation between the floor joists above - any other or contrary suggestions?

Passive will work for me - I'm more into keeping wines 3-10 years. I'm getting a thermometer/hygrometer from Santa to keep an eye on things.

Thanks for any input!
Bob

Welcome to the boards, Bob.

My first cellar in KY was passive; I noticed about a 10 deg. temp swing (+/- 60 to 70 deg.)summer to winter, which concerned me a bit. Like your plan, two walls were 94 yr. old concrete and almost entirely sub-terranean, the other two walls were stud/insul/gyp board. I didn't use a solid-core door, and no weather strippping at the door threshold, so its easy to understand where the high temps were coming from.

The vapor barrier is a must if you're planning on ever installing a cooling unit, as it will do its damnest to pull moisture from its surroundings, including through the concrete. Considering your cellar is such a small area, a 6 mil roll of VB isn't a huge investment; you'll simply need to lay it in the stud cavities to allow the insulation to fit.

Another course of action would be to have a contractor spray in quick-rise polystyrene. It'll cost a bit, but it provides insulation and VB in one application. Note that you can buy this stuff on line and DIY - if your so inclined - and save a little bit of $$$.

Just remember, if you do a good job of insulating your cellar, and are creating a warm environment outside in the livable area of the basement, w/o any positive air pressure on the cellar side you'll draw the warm, moist air into the room that'll stay in there and bring the potential for dampness and all that that implies. Good luck, and post pics!

Kybo,

Thanks for the greeting and good info. I’m in the DC area, I’ll be curious with how my basement holds up but I never recall the basement getting higher than 68 – although I’ll keep a close eye on it this summer. We’re a bit cooler here – right now (before I insulate the basement) it is 58 degrees.

I’m pretty sure I’ll never cool that closet – we’ll be moving in a few years and I don’t want the expense right now. With that in mind, do you suggest I still use a VB in the wine closet? I was thinking of not using it in the closet, but I’m not sure. Also, I was thinking of not using any insulation in the closet’s exterior walls – it would be cooler that way in there. Insulation would only be for the interior walls.

You go on to say: “[you] are creating a warm environment outside in the livable area of the basement, w/o any positive air pressure on the cellar side you'll draw the warm, moist air into the room that'll stay in there and bring the potential for dampness and all that that implies.” So maybe my question here is the same as my question in the above paragraph. How do I ensure I create positive air pressure on the cellar site to keep the warm air out? Is putting a VB & insulation on the interior walls of the cellar a way of ensuring a positive air flow? I plan on sealing door w/neoprene to help, and perhaps putting a VB on the inside walls would help as well.

Sorry for confusion – just want to get it right!

Many thanks,
Bob

My thoughts on the '...warm environment...' thread were that once the VB is installed, it will not let vapor pass one way or the other; if you let in warm, moist air, it'll stay there. Eventually, the thermal mass of the foundation walls will regulate the air, but the humidity will be there and could cause mold to develop on the walls, racks, bottles, etc.

W/o some type of blower, fan, etc., providing at least equillibrium between the two areas, you'll create a vacuum whenever you open the door. As far as mold, etc., you know what a warm closet full of sneakers smells like; w/o a method of changing air in the closet you could end up w/similar results.

I know lots of folks here have built storage similar to that which you describe; it'd be interesting to see if they've seen any deleterious effects over time. I also think the two key things are minimal temp variation and light exposure; both of which an insulated, closed room will provide. If you're not planning on staying in the house too long - and not planning on housing that '49 Cheval Blanc - I wouldn't sweat the VB or cooling unit.

Thanks for the reply. As I understand it, for most applications (like a basement room) the VB is more for preventing moisture from warm air (inside of the room) passing through to the cooler foundation walls and causing a mold problem on the walls or anything touching it. So perhaps what I'll do is try to prevent the moisture from entering the wine closet (VB on the interior walls) and leave the closet's exterior walls open. In this way, any moisture that enters the closet (opening the door, for example) can exit to the cooler foundation walls. I can easily put in a small fan in the closet as well to help keep things circulating.

Of course I've only changed my mind 15 times on this already, we'll see how things end up!

Bob

The vapor barrier goes on the WARM side whatever that is. You don't want moisture in the warm air as it potentially migrates to the cooler area to condense. This means that in a wine celler walls to other conditioned spaces have the barrier on the non-cellar side. If your cellar wall touches a colder exterior wall, then you want the barrier on the cellar side.

quote:

Originally posted by kybo:
Built my cellar two years back.

Nice job Kybo. Not OTT. Just real nice! Congratulations.

I had a passive cellar, I have torn it apart and re-insulated, double vapor barrier and a cooling unit. Now I need to fill it

Definately go with the VP, it is easier now than later.

This is how it turned out: Cellar

Beautiful job!

quote:

Originally posted by AftOf245:
I had a passive cellar, I have torn it apart and re-insulated, double vapor barrier and a cooling unit. Now I need to fill it

Definately go with the VP, it is easier now than later.

This is how it turned out: Cellar

Nice job on your cellar! Which cooling unit did you decide to go with?? I currently have a passive cellar and I'm thinking about proceeding with a cooling unit, though I'm gonna hold off until late spring(wifes advice ). I agree vb is a must and insulate well. uncertain as to which cooling unit. Its about 250 cubic feet. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by napaccoast:

quote:

Originally posted by AftOf245:
I had a passive cellar, I have torn it apart and re-insulated, double vapor barrier and a cooling unit. Now I need to fill it

Definately go with the VP, it is easier now than later.

This is how it turned out: Cellar

Nice job on your cellar! Which cooling unit did you decide to go with?? I currently have a passive cellar and I'm thinking about proceeding with a cooling unit, though I'm gonna hold off until late spring(wifes advice ). I agree vb is a must and insulate well. uncertain as to which cooling unit. Its about 250 cubic feet. Thanks

I went with the ChillR unit: http://www.customcellars.ca/chillr.html

quote:

Originally posted by AftOf245:

quote:

Originally posted by napaccoast:

quote:

Originally posted by AftOf245:
I had a passive cellar, I have torn it apart and re-insulated, double vapor barrier and a cooling unit. Now I need to fill it

Definately go with the VP, it is easier now than later.

This is how it turned out: Cellar

Nice job on your cellar! Which cooling unit did you decide to go with?? I currently have a passive cellar and I'm thinking about proceeding with a cooling unit, though I'm gonna hold off until late spring(wifes advice ). I agree vb is a must and insulate well. uncertain as to which cooling unit. Its about 250 cubic feet. Thanks

I went with the ChillR unit: http://www.customcellars.ca/chillr.html