Does wine with screwcaps age? LWC has gone to all screwcaps and i'm wondering if there is any advantage to holding onto Loring wine or is it as good as it's going to get already?
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Hi Walt,
They say the screw cap is better than the cork for aging.
Taken from http://www.azcentral.com/home/wine/articles/0527corktaint27.html
"Devine said that screw caps also allow the wine to age better and that the closure allows them to be stored upright. "The wines are going to age better because they're not going to be interfered with by excess oxygen," he said. "Wine is a science. No matter what you think, the science says it's going to mature with far more consistency than with a cork."
But then another article from CU http://www.wsj.consumerreports.org/wsjreport128.html said
"There are other benefits to screw caps. You can easily reclose bottles, and you don’t have to store them sideways to moisten the cork so that the seal stays tight. But a recent small study by Hogue Cellars found that screw caps may be inappropriate for wines that can improve with age, particularly reds."
So who knows for sure?
They say the screw cap is better than the cork for aging.
Taken from http://www.azcentral.com/home/wine/articles/0527corktaint27.html
"Devine said that screw caps also allow the wine to age better and that the closure allows them to be stored upright. "The wines are going to age better because they're not going to be interfered with by excess oxygen," he said. "Wine is a science. No matter what you think, the science says it's going to mature with far more consistency than with a cork."
But then another article from CU http://www.wsj.consumerreports.org/wsjreport128.html said
"There are other benefits to screw caps. You can easily reclose bottles, and you don’t have to store them sideways to moisten the cork so that the seal stays tight. But a recent small study by Hogue Cellars found that screw caps may be inappropriate for wines that can improve with age, particularly reds."
So who knows for sure?
Sane people will choose bottles with corks and will live with their choice.
This (first, mind you; as if he's trying to tell us something) paragraph says all there is to know about writer's wine erudition.
quote:When good wines go bad, you know it in a flash. That unmistakable musty odor when you pop the cork -- moldy, mushroomy, wet cardboard -- is a sure sign that your wine has gone off. And it happens more often than you think
This (first, mind you; as if he's trying to tell us something) paragraph says all there is to know about writer's wine erudition.
quote:So who knows for sure?
No one. And until someone can definitively tell me what the effect a screwcap has on ageable wines, I'm going to have to take my chances with cork. I have no problem with screwcaps for "drink now" bottles, but I don't want to end up buying 10-20 year agers in screwcap, only to find out that I've made a terrible mistake several years from now.
I have heard rumors that several reputable chateaux had started putting some wine in screwcap several years ago to compare aging against cork sealed bottles. Anyone know more about this?
PH
We'll know in 2030 or so.
Most wine is poured within the week after purchase.
No screw cap can do any damage there.
Perhaps screw caps won't do anything for aging.
But: neither does:
- bad winemaking
- bad cellaring
- rough transport
- weak vintage
- sick cork
So, in the long run you might still be better of with a screw cap or a synthetic cork.
Most wine is poured within the week after purchase.
No screw cap can do any damage there.
Perhaps screw caps won't do anything for aging.
But: neither does:
- bad winemaking
- bad cellaring
- rough transport
- weak vintage
- sick cork
So, in the long run you might still be better of with a screw cap or a synthetic cork.
Thanks for the link, haggis.
PH
PH
quote:Perhaps screw caps won't do anything for aging.
But: neither does:
Hey, don't show up Purplehaze like that! He is my like my idol.
- AD
What?
Is this really the sign of the future - screw caps for all wine? I must admit that it would certainly be a relief not to have to struggle with the corks, but then again, what about the quality of the wine? How will it be effected?
Hell, he lost me too Rik. 
Your points about winemaking, transport etc. all are valid.
I think the ultimate benefit from screwcaps, once their effect on ageing can be quantified, may be an increase in the predictibility of ageing and improved consistency among bottles. I've heard time and time again stories of sequentially numbered bottles, or bottles from small productions which drink totally differently. Same owner, same storage and same provenance. In almost all cases, the only variable is the cork.
PH
Your points about winemaking, transport etc. all are valid.
I think the ultimate benefit from screwcaps, once their effect on ageing can be quantified, may be an increase in the predictibility of ageing and improved consistency among bottles. I've heard time and time again stories of sequentially numbered bottles, or bottles from small productions which drink totally differently. Same owner, same storage and same provenance. In almost all cases, the only variable is the cork.
PH
quote:Originally posted by DebAnne:
Is this really the sign of the future - screw caps for all wine? I must admit that it would certainly be a relief not to have to struggle with the corks, but then again, what about the quality of the wine? How will it be effected?
The long term studies that I have seen have indicates that wines under screw cap age more consistently and that the quality of the wine is not affected.
The problem that I have seen reported is that winemakers need to reduce the H2S levels, otherwise this can lead to off flavours/aromas.
I've been drinking screw cap wines regulalrly for 5 years and I haven't come across any bottles that indicated to me that they were doing an inferior job of closing the wine than cork.
Leaving aside the issue of whether screw cap or cork is a better closure for long term drinking the current reported failure rate that I've seen in the press is between 3-5% for cork and less than 0.1% for screw cap (by failure I'm talking about corked/leaking etc., not I think the other closure would do a better job)
Thank you Pauly for the explanation. I appreciate your response.
Recently, I was at a party at Marshall Field's on State Street. One of the wines served was from Francis Ford Coppola. It is named for his daughter, 'Sofia' and it comes in a can.
I did not drink it, although I wanted to, but I had eaten too much chocalate; did not want to confuse the flavors.....(long story and boring, too!)
I observed some people sipping it with a straw like it was soda pop.
I have tremendous respect for Coppola, but wine in a can? Seems like a strange concept, but he knows his stuff better than I do; so I shall hinder the comments until I've tried the wine.
Recently, I was at a party at Marshall Field's on State Street. One of the wines served was from Francis Ford Coppola. It is named for his daughter, 'Sofia' and it comes in a can.
I did not drink it, although I wanted to, but I had eaten too much chocalate; did not want to confuse the flavors.....(long story and boring, too!)
I observed some people sipping it with a straw like it was soda pop.
I have tremendous respect for Coppola, but wine in a can? Seems like a strange concept, but he knows his stuff better than I do; so I shall hinder the comments until I've tried the wine.
How much of the pleading à décharge of the regular cork comes from traditionalism and conservatism?
Not a lot of revolutionary thinking around a bottle of Lafite or Latour, I suppose.
The main thing is that when people started to bottle wine (I think the Brits started it) there was not a lot more available than cork and wax... Those were the seventeen hundreds.
It's now 2005.
Most of the old oak cuves have been switched for high tech inoxidables. So why not tin cans for your expensive wines if it keeps the germs out?
Not a lot of revolutionary thinking around a bottle of Lafite or Latour, I suppose.
The main thing is that when people started to bottle wine (I think the Brits started it) there was not a lot more available than cork and wax... Those were the seventeen hundreds.
It's now 2005.
Most of the old oak cuves have been switched for high tech inoxidables. So why not tin cans for your expensive wines if it keeps the germs out?
quote:Originally posted by DebAnne:
One of the wines served was from Francis Ford Coppola. It is named for his daughter, 'Sofia' and it comes in a can.
I observed some people sipping it with a straw like it was soda pop.
Seems like a strange concept, but he knows his stuff better than I do; so I shall hinder the comments until I've tried the wine.
I had this juice once. It left me with no memorable impression at all. Except that I've never seen it on a shelf. All I've ever seen is where it would be. I guess that people buy this stuff up like it's some kind of "wonder juice". I also guess that Francis is laughing himself to the bank with the returns from this product.
Nowt wrong wi' tin cans Rik, they've packaged them this way in Aus for years. As a marketing idea - it failed.
Purplehaze ... how long do you want to "trial'' aging under screw caps for? 10 years - 20 years? Or would you believe that wine we bottled when I was in College in 1979 and which was opened in 2004 - was an adequate test of the principle?
The results of a double-blind tasting (reported in Australian Wine Industry Journal) of Rieslng and Gewurztraminer bottled at Chas. Sturt University in 1979 was that ALL the cork-closed wines were oxidised and rejected; all except one of the Stelvin closed wines were clean, complex, aged wines.
Nich var St Thomas?
Purplehaze ... how long do you want to "trial'' aging under screw caps for? 10 years - 20 years? Or would you believe that wine we bottled when I was in College in 1979 and which was opened in 2004 - was an adequate test of the principle?
The results of a double-blind tasting (reported in Australian Wine Industry Journal) of Rieslng and Gewurztraminer bottled at Chas. Sturt University in 1979 was that ALL the cork-closed wines were oxidised and rejected; all except one of the Stelvin closed wines were clean, complex, aged wines.
Nich var St Thomas?
Do a search on a thread entitled "Screw screw caps" in wine conversations about a year ago. It was pretty comprehensive and offered a LOT of information (and opinions).
Since 1979, he, Vinserve...
Methink your statement makes the point we were looking for.
But wait a minute. Gewurz, Riesling... who says it will work for cabs from Lafite's croupes in Pauillac? They're so fancy they need nothing less than a two dollar cork to shove up their tight, well, bottlenecks.
Methink your statement makes the point we were looking for.
But wait a minute. Gewurz, Riesling... who says it will work for cabs from Lafite's croupes in Pauillac? They're so fancy they need nothing less than a two dollar cork to shove up their tight, well, bottlenecks.
quote:Purplehaze ... how long do you want to "trial'' aging under screw caps for? 10 years - 20 years? Or would you believe that wine we bottled when I was in College in 1979 and which was opened in 2004 - was an adequate test of the principle?
I'd say 20 years would be enough to get a fairly good idea. It would have to be with wines which are specifically made to be aged, and would need to be done side-by-side with identical bottles sealed with cork.
quote:The results of a double-blind tasting (reported in Australian Wine Industry Journal) of Rieslng and Gewurztraminer bottled at Chas. Sturt University in 1979 was that ALL the cork-closed wines were oxidised and rejected; all except one of the Stelvin closed wines were clean, complex, aged wines.
This speaks specifically to my concerns about ageability and consistency. I'm not sure what type of reisling or gewurztraminer you were using in 1979, but I'll hazard that it was fairly generic stuff. I wonder what the result would have been had you used great quality red wines designed for ageing. Would the bottles sealed with cork be mature and integrated? Would the bottles sealed by screwcap be primary and tannic? Who the hell knows? Until someone does this with ageable reds for a long enough time to see what the effect of ageing is under screwcap, I think it's premature to say that screwcaps are the solution.
PH
PurpleHaze, I agree with you 100%.
Purple and MiamiAtty,
I think you are not being quite reasonable here so to take a leaf from Miami's profession,
"Members of the Jury, I put it to you that if the Riesling and the Gewurztraminer was (as posited by the plaintive), merely everyday, generic stuff - yet lasted twenty years - that using premium fruit would have only enhanced the result!"
In a more serious vein, I agree with you - the jury is out - the jury being the drinking public. I also point out that few of the posters on this BB are "the drinking public" but represent the thin crust (perhaps less than 1%) of the consumers.
There are so many facets to this thing.
First and foremost somewhere in the order of 1% of wines (conservatively) are showing cork spoilage. This is unacceptable in today's market.
Secondly, no closure - repeat NO closure - is perfect, whether it be cork, zork (ugh!), synthetic "cork" (double "ugh"), or ROPP (such as Stelvin). All have their advantages and disadvantages.
The faults of cork are well known so are the advantages. The advantages of Stelvin are known - but - there are two major disadvantages; i) the seal is too perfect. ii) leads from this, that the equilibrium reaction of sulphidic reduction/oxidation is slowed or prevented ... leading to an occasional H2S spoilage.
i) means that the wines will bottle age very slowly indeed.
ii) means that it will take longer than normal for this reaction to proceed to its balance point and so wines closed in this way may continue to show H2S related spoilage for many years - more years than if sealed under the less impermeable cork.
However, the argument is moot when the marketing is considered. Thorough research in four countries has established that 93% of wine bought is consumed within 48 hours of purchase.
Therefore, when you are selling your wine you are faced with a stark choice - accept that at least 1% of your product is going to be spoilt by TCA - or package under Stelvin and not have that problem. In 48 hours it's gone - so the path of safety is Stelvin. You are a bold maker if you risk even one consumer rejecting your wine, especially as most are not knowledgeable and so would not know that this was a problem not representative of all your wines. There are so many competing products out there that they need never buy your wine again - yet if you give them a good experience it is likely that they will seek out your wine repeatedly, for many years on end.
I also would ask you to note that in the 25 years since those wines were bottled that the Stelvin closure has undergone continuing research and improvement.
Should you wish to lay down Stelvin closures I recommend that you put the neck of the bottle in to the wall as it is when they are dented along the top edge that the seal fails.
The answer to your main contention is 20 years away - and YOU are the only person that can do this experiment, both because of the marketing reality (above), and because as an enthusiast, it is a worthy experiment.
May I suggest that you buy six bottles of each closure from one of the several companies offering this choice - and lay them down. After five years sample the first pairing; follow this at ten, fifteen and twenty years - perhaps leaving one pair for 25 years.
Remember to post tasting notes. I'll read them with interest - or at least the first three - after that ... well this is why I'm no longer laying in Port by the case. Meanwhile I shall not resile from my contention that screw-caps WILL prove to be better than cork for long term storage of premium red wines.
I think you are not being quite reasonable here so to take a leaf from Miami's profession,
"Members of the Jury, I put it to you that if the Riesling and the Gewurztraminer was (as posited by the plaintive), merely everyday, generic stuff - yet lasted twenty years - that using premium fruit would have only enhanced the result!"
In a more serious vein, I agree with you - the jury is out - the jury being the drinking public. I also point out that few of the posters on this BB are "the drinking public" but represent the thin crust (perhaps less than 1%) of the consumers.
There are so many facets to this thing.
First and foremost somewhere in the order of 1% of wines (conservatively) are showing cork spoilage. This is unacceptable in today's market.
Secondly, no closure - repeat NO closure - is perfect, whether it be cork, zork (ugh!), synthetic "cork" (double "ugh"), or ROPP (such as Stelvin). All have their advantages and disadvantages.
The faults of cork are well known so are the advantages. The advantages of Stelvin are known - but - there are two major disadvantages; i) the seal is too perfect. ii) leads from this, that the equilibrium reaction of sulphidic reduction/oxidation is slowed or prevented ... leading to an occasional H2S spoilage.
i) means that the wines will bottle age very slowly indeed.
ii) means that it will take longer than normal for this reaction to proceed to its balance point and so wines closed in this way may continue to show H2S related spoilage for many years - more years than if sealed under the less impermeable cork.
However, the argument is moot when the marketing is considered. Thorough research in four countries has established that 93% of wine bought is consumed within 48 hours of purchase.
Therefore, when you are selling your wine you are faced with a stark choice - accept that at least 1% of your product is going to be spoilt by TCA - or package under Stelvin and not have that problem. In 48 hours it's gone - so the path of safety is Stelvin. You are a bold maker if you risk even one consumer rejecting your wine, especially as most are not knowledgeable and so would not know that this was a problem not representative of all your wines. There are so many competing products out there that they need never buy your wine again - yet if you give them a good experience it is likely that they will seek out your wine repeatedly, for many years on end.
I also would ask you to note that in the 25 years since those wines were bottled that the Stelvin closure has undergone continuing research and improvement.
Should you wish to lay down Stelvin closures I recommend that you put the neck of the bottle in to the wall as it is when they are dented along the top edge that the seal fails.
The answer to your main contention is 20 years away - and YOU are the only person that can do this experiment, both because of the marketing reality (above), and because as an enthusiast, it is a worthy experiment.
May I suggest that you buy six bottles of each closure from one of the several companies offering this choice - and lay them down. After five years sample the first pairing; follow this at ten, fifteen and twenty years - perhaps leaving one pair for 25 years.
Remember to post tasting notes. I'll read them with interest - or at least the first three - after that ... well this is why I'm no longer laying in Port by the case. Meanwhile I shall not resile from my contention that screw-caps WILL prove to be better than cork for long term storage of premium red wines.