bomba503 posted:
arsenal4ever posted:

Or he could have just been insane

Insane people walk outside and start shooting. Do insane people plan an attack and drive ten hours to shoot people?

“Insane” is tough. These White Supremacist terrorists are clearly mentally disturbed.  Even most White Supremacists don’t behave the way they do. However, Right-wing White Nationalist terrorism is the primary terrorist threat we face today in the U.S..  And, beyond giving a woefully distorted view of mental illness, dismissing these terrorists as insane makes no more sense than dismissing members of ISIS or Al-Qaeda as insane. 

Beyond this, other mass murderers, while sometimes emotionally or realistically untethered, have capacities for easy damage in this country that they simply do not have anywhere else in the Free World. Anyone who dedicates enormous amounts of time and effort into killing several random people anywhere in the Free World will likely be able to do it; but the ease and the likely meaning of “several” are different in the United States. 

As many of you have probably heard, more people have been killed in mass shootings in the United States in the past week than American troops killed in Afghanistan in 2017 and 2018.

Let's be perfectly clear and honest regarding both shootings: they are both acts of terrorism, and the El Paso shooting was perpetrated by a white nationalist.

The fear, anger, and hate associated with these incidents has been tacitly encouraged by Donald J. Trump.

If [he] has any moral fortitude, at all, [he] will change his tone.

I won't hold my breath.

arsenal4ever posted:

Or he could have just been insane

That would be the Racist-in-Chief's base of which you are one. How can you possible excuse a president, a PRESIDENT, who does the following:

"The El Paso attack prompted some critics to circulate a 3-month-old clip of a Trump rally at Panama City Beach, in the Florida Panhandle, at which the president mused aloud about how to stop migrants from crossing the southern border.

'Shoot ‘em!' shouted someone in the audience, drawing cheers from the crowd.

Trump smiled and shook his head. 'That’s only in the Panhandle you can get away with that statement,' he said." This is from the LA Times. I hope you get to see the video which is even more sickening as he stands there doing his Mussolini style mugging.

Today from the Pussy Grabber-in-Chief, "The nation must condemn racism, bigotry and white supremacy." It must have killed him to be forced to call out at least half his supporters.

But just keep looking the other way and making excuses like a good Trumpanzie.

No thinking person takes what the POTUS says seriously.  He lies all the time. He's really poorly educated. (Yes, I know he has a degree from Wharton, but he favors tariffs?)  He doesn't read books.   He advocates love and not hate in today's speech? He's a master of attacking people, insulting them, hating them and giving them nicknames. 

His base will understand that he's just making a speech required by the events, and that he is still the hater-in-chief.

 

 

bomba503 posted:
arsenal4ever posted:

Or he could have just been insane

Insane people walk outside and start shooting. Do insane people plan an attack and drive ten hours to shoot people?

Every country has insane people yet only in the US are there hundreds of mass shootings a year, averaging more than one a day so far this year. And only in the US is that rate of mass shootings increasing.  

Going out on a limb here and wondering if it could possibly have anything to do with weak gun control legislation and a President that encourages his fellow Americans to hate each other and anyone not like them?

bman posted:
bomba503 posted:
arsenal4ever posted:

Or he could have just been insane

Insane people walk outside and start shooting. Do insane people plan an attack and drive ten hours to shoot people?

Every country has insane people yet only in the US are there hundreds of mass shootings a year, averaging more than one a day so far this year. And only in the US is that rate of mass shootings increasing.  

Going out on a limb here and wondering if it could possibly have anything to do with weak gun control legislation and a President that encourages his fellow Americans to hate each other and anyone not like them?

The Bigot-in-Chief is also trying to blame video games. Of course the US is the only country in the world where video games are big...huh?

So, this popped up in my inbox this morning but is nowhere to be found in this thread.  I wonder where the post went, and who he could be talking about! 

Hello, bman:
We're sending you this notification because you are either following the forum, the content, or the author listed below.
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That concept is too intricate for the Canadian fixated on our President.

 

It's our violent culture.  Every house in Switzerland has a gun.  Every house in Israel has a gun.  Almost no gun crime in either place.

We have very little illiteracy in the US because we teach kids how to read.  We have violence because we teach violence. 

 

irwin posted:

It's our violent culture.  Every house in Switzerland has a gun.  Every house in Israel has a gun.  Almost no gun crime in either place.

We have very little illiteracy in the US because we teach kids how to read.  We have violence because we teach violence. 

 

Nailed it, irwin.  No one is born a neo-Nazi.  It all starts at home.

PH

irwin posted:

It's our violent culture.  Every house in Switzerland has a gun.  Every house in Israel has a gun.  Almost no gun crime in either place.

 

This line is often used by anti-gun control advocates. However it's really apples and oranges:

From the Times of Israel: "Israelis must meet a detailed list of criteria to be allowed to own a firearm. They must ask the state for a license, are permitted only one gun at a time, and must even ask for permission to sell their gun. And the Firearms Licensing Department is no rubber stamp: Roughly 40 percent of requests are rejected.

Indeed, before even requesting a license, Israelis must meet minimum age requirements, be in good health and of sound mind, and have no criminal record, among other preconditions.


There’s more. Once they are granted the right to carry a gun, Israelis are limited to just 50 bullets in their possession at any given time. They must shoot or return old bullets before they can buy new ones, a process that can only take place at tightly regulated shooting ranges where each bullet’s sale is carefully registered. The types of guns permitted also depend on the reason for the license."

Switzerland, from Wikipedia:

Buying guns
In order to purchase most weapons, the purchaser must obtain a weapon acquisition permit (art. 8 WG/LArm). Swiss citizens and foreigners with a C permit over the age of 18 who are not under a curator nor identified as being a danger for themselves or others, and who don't have a criminal record with a conviction for a violent crime or of several convictions as long as they haven't been written out can request such a permit. Foreigners with citizenship to the following countries are explicitly excluded from the right to possess weapons: Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Algeria and Albania.[note 1] The following information must be provided to the cantonal weapon bureau together with the weapon application form:

valid official identification or passport copy.
residence address.
criminal record copy not older than 3 months.
For each transfer of a weapon or an essential weapon component without weapons acquisition permit (art. 10 WG/LArm), a written contract must be concluded. Each Party shall keep them at least ten years. The contract must include the following information (art. 11 WG/LArm):

Family name, first name, birth date, residence address and signature of the person who sells the weapon or essential weapon component.
Family name, first name, birth date, residence address and signature of the person who purchases the weapon or an essential weapon component.
Kind of weapon, manufacturer or producer, label, caliber, weapon number, and date and place of transfer.
Type and number of the official identification of the person who acquires the weapon or the essential weapon component.
and an indication of the processing of personal data in connection with the contract in accordance with the privacy policy of the Federation or the cantons, if firearms are transmitted.
This information must be sent within 30 days to the cantonal weapon registration bureau, where the weapon holders are registered (art. 9 WG/LArm).

Some weapons do not need a weapon acquisition permit (art. 10 WG/LArm):

Single-shot and multi-barreled hunting rifles and replicas of single-shot muzzle loaders.
Hand bolt-action rifles, which are commonly used in off-duty and sporting gunnery recognized by the military law of 3 February 1952 and shooting clubs for hunting purposes in Switzerland.
Single-shot rabbit slayer.
Compressed air and CO2 weapons that develop a muzzle energy of at least 7.5 joules, or their appearance may be mistaken for real firearms.

Buying ammunition

Ready ammunition of the Swiss Army. Soldiers equipped with the Sig 550 assault rifle used to be issued 50 rounds of ammunition in a sealed can, to be opened only upon alert and for use while en route to join their unit. This practice was stopped in 2007.[13]
In order to purchase ammunition, the buyer must follow the same legal rules that apply when buying guns. The buyer must provide the following information to the seller (art. 15, 16 WG/LArm; art. 24 WV/OArm):[2][1]

a passport or other valid official identification (the holder must be over 18 years of age) with valid address.
a copy of their criminal record not older than 3 months, or a weapons acquisition permit which isn't older than 2 years (art. 24 § 3 WV/OArm).
The seller must verify that the buyer is not psychiatrically disqualified nor identified as posing security problems (art. 8 § 2 WG/LArm).
Further, they must not be a citizen of the following countries (art. 12 WV/OArm): Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Algeria and Albania).

A Swiss 100 gram black powder container.
The possession of the following ammunition is generally prohibited:

Armor-piercing bullets.
Ammunition with projectile containing an explosive or incendiary device.
Ammunition with one or more projectiles releasing substances which damage the health of people in the long run, particularly those mentioned in annex 2 of the WV/OArm.
Ammunition, missiles and missile launchers for military explosive.
Ammunition with projectiles for transmitting electric shocks.
Ammunition for handguns which may cause deformations."

In other words both countries have sensible control.

g-man posted:

Well, if yer busy playing golf on two hot days in a row, you typically will suffer from heat stroke.

What is the buffoon suffering from?   Guess he can't get FOX in his golf cart.  See the body count went up in El Paso.  So sad.  Spent many days on business in that city.  Loved it.

g-man posted:

Was this posted to back up your apples to oranges comparison?

From the article, "The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns."

Nope, I gave the answer for the two countries you cited--very strict gun control laws. Also no country, that I know of, gives citizens access to the high level of fire power and magazine capacity that we do in the US.

From what I can see after a quick Google search, there are roughly 120 guns per 100 people in the US, compared to roughly 7 per 100 people in Israel and 28 per 100 in Switzerland.

Sure, culture may be an issue, and so is mental illness (in multiple cases, but not all). The disgusting political rhetoric that is now commonplace in the US plays a big role too.

But availability of and access to guns is THE biggest differentiator here, if we're comparing to other nations. 

It's absolutely stunning to me that so many people, supposedly intelligent and competent, are so unable to implement any change that prevent these deaths of innocent US (and other) citizens. Or unwilling.

purplehaze posted:
irwin posted:

It's our violent culture.  Every house in Switzerland has a gun.  Every house in Israel has a gun.  Almost no gun crime in either place.

We have very little illiteracy in the US because we teach kids how to read.  We have violence because we teach violence. 

 

Nailed it, irwin.  No one is born a neo-Nazi.  It all starts at home.

PH

True. But it gets a whole hell of a lot worse if they can simply stroll into their neighbourhood Walmart and buy guns and ammo.

shavez posted:

From what I can see after a quick Google search, there are roughly 120 guns per 100 people in the US, compared to roughly 7 per 100 people in Israel and 28 per 100 in Switzerland.

Sure, culture may be an issue, and so is mental illness (in multiple cases, but not all). The disgusting political rhetoric that is now commonplace in the US plays a big role too.

But availability of and access to guns is THE biggest differentiator here, if we're comparing to other nations. 

It's absolutely stunning to me that so many people, supposedly intelligent and competent, are so unable to implement any change that prevent these deaths of innocent US (and other) citizens. Or unwilling.

Well obviously countries with stricter gun control than the US, in other words every country, are going to have less guns in the public's hands. I'm making the case for gun control, Irwin was making it about our culture. To which I call BS.

The Old Man posted:
shavez posted:

From what I can see after a quick Google search, there are roughly 120 guns per 100 people in the US, compared to roughly 7 per 100 people in Israel and 28 per 100 in Switzerland.

Sure, culture may be an issue, and so is mental illness (in multiple cases, but not all). The disgusting political rhetoric that is now commonplace in the US plays a big role too.

But availability of and access to guns is THE biggest differentiator here, if we're comparing to other nations. 

It's absolutely stunning to me that so many people, supposedly intelligent and competent, are so unable to implement any change that prevent these deaths of innocent US (and other) citizens. Or unwilling.

Well obviously countries with stricter gun control than the US, in other words every country, are going to have less guns in the public's hands. I'm making the case for gun control, Irwin was making it about our culture. To which I call BS.

Irwin's post suggested that gun availability in Switzerland and Israel was somehow comparable to the US. Which is wrong. Anyone suggesting that the availability of and access to guns in the US is not at the very core of the issue is...well...missing the point, to put it mildly.

shavez posted:
The Old Man posted:
shavez posted:

From what I can see after a quick Google search, there are roughly 120 guns per 100 people in the US, compared to roughly 7 per 100 people in Israel and 28 per 100 in Switzerland.

Sure, culture may be an issue, and so is mental illness (in multiple cases, but not all). The disgusting political rhetoric that is now commonplace in the US plays a big role too.

But availability of and access to guns is THE biggest differentiator here, if we're comparing to other nations. 

It's absolutely stunning to me that so many people, supposedly intelligent and competent, are so unable to implement any change that prevent these deaths of innocent US (and other) citizens. Or unwilling.

Well obviously countries with stricter gun control than the US, in other words every country, are going to have less guns in the public's hands. I'm making the case for gun control, Irwin was making it about our culture. To which I call BS.

Irwin's post suggested that gun availability in Switzerland and Israel was somehow comparable to the US. Which is wrong. Anyone suggesting that the availability of and access to guns in the US is not at the very core of the issue is...well...missing the point, to put it mildly.

Exactly. And the difference is the gun laws of those countries. Lot easier starting there than trying to change America's culture.

Can't believe the speech they gave the hater in chief to read about how hate is the problem. No sense of irony.

shavez posted:
purplehaze posted:
irwin posted:

It's our violent culture.  Every house in Switzerland has a gun.  Every house in Israel has a gun.  Almost no gun crime in either place.

We have very little illiteracy in the US because we teach kids how to read.  We have violence because we teach violence. 

 

Nailed it, irwin.  No one is born a neo-Nazi.  It all starts at home.

PH

True. But it gets a whole hell of a lot worse if they can simply stroll into their neighbourhood Walmart and buy guns and ammo.

No argument from me.  My concern is that even if we totally ended all weapon sales in the US today, there are 270 million firearms, including just shy of 2 million assault weapons.  Without a profound cultural shift in our country, we are all at risk every day.

PH

Israel also has mandatory military service (except for the ultra-religious who managed to get themselves excepted) - which I would wager both increases the level of training and is more likely to weed out people with psychological issues who then find it harder to obtain weapons.

The Old Man posted:
g-man posted:

Was this posted to back up your apples to oranges comparison?

From the article, "The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns."

Nope, I gave the answer for the two countries you cited--very strict gun control laws. Also no country, that I know of, gives citizens access to the high level of fire power and magazine capacity that we do in the US.

You're replying to the wrong individual I believe?

Regardless, did you even read the article TOM?

 

purplehaze posted:
shavez posted:
purplehaze posted:
irwin posted:

It's our violent culture.  Every house in Switzerland has a gun.  Every house in Israel has a gun.  Almost no gun crime in either place.

We have very little illiteracy in the US because we teach kids how to read.  We have violence because we teach violence. 

 

Nailed it, irwin.  No one is born a neo-Nazi.  It all starts at home.

PH

True. But it gets a whole hell of a lot worse if they can simply stroll into their neighbourhood Walmart and buy guns and ammo.

No argument from me.  My concern is that even if we totally ended all weapon sales in the US today, there are 270 million firearms, including just shy of 2 million assault weapons.  Without a profound cultural shift in our country, we are all at risk every day.

PH

Simply need to look at a few other countries in the world that had similar problems and solved it.  Ie Australia. 

g-man posted:
The Old Man posted:
g-man posted:

Was this posted to back up your apples to oranges comparison?

From the article, "The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns."

Nope, I gave the answer for the two countries you cited--very strict gun control laws. Also no country, that I know of, gives citizens access to the high level of fire power and magazine capacity that we do in the US.

You're replying to the wrong individual I believe?

Regardless, did you even read the article TOM?

 

Yes. Wrong person. Yes I did read the article I even quoted from it.

Ha. The hospital patients in El Paso refused to see the orange racist so the White House had to have two previously released patients return so that there would be someone for him to see.😂

Now the White House staff is admitting the trip didn’t go as hoped, and hospital administrators saying the orange racist was completely devoid of empathy. No shit! 

wineart 2 posted:

Ha. The hospital patients in El Paso refused to see the orange racist so the White House had to have two previously released patients return so that there would be someone for him to see.😂

Now the White House staff is admitting the trip didn’t go as hoped, and hospital administrators saying the orange racist was completely devoid of empathy. No shit! 

But, but but... he spoke so eloquently about the poor people of Toledo!  

Of course, another geezer with aspirations for office (sorry bman, I know you like him) offered his sympathies to the people of Houston and Michigan. 

New rule.  If you're 71 or older, no presidency for you!  I added a year, because I'm actually kinda digging Elizabeth Warren lately.  And I'd LOVE to see her on a debate stage with the dotard.   

PH

thistlintom posted:

OMG,  “we choose truth over facts”. I can’t believe he said that.  Oh, wait that was Biden, not Trump?  Never mind.

Certainly on par with the classlessness and stupidity of bragging about crowd sizes when visiting shooting victims.

thistlintom posted:

OMG,  “we choose truth over facts”. I can’t believe he said that.  Oh, wait that was Biden, not Trump?  Never mind.

Certainly an awkward turn of phrase, unless you consider that truth is immutable.  Apparently "facts," at least among a certain population, can have "alternatives."

PH

thistlintom posted:

OMG,  “we choose truth over facts”. I can’t believe he said that.  Oh, wait that was Biden, not Trump?  Never mind.

Certainly a dumb thing to say, but hardly as bad as being the first openly racist president since Andrew Jackson. Not to mention being a bigot, a sexist, a mocker of the disabled, a mocker of POW's ("I like people who weren't captured, OK?"), an admitter of sexual assault, a know-nothing (didn't even know what the nuclear triad is), an instigator of violence and a demagogue.

I think I'll give Biden a pass on this one.

billhike posted:
thistlintom posted:

OMG,  “we choose truth over facts”. I can’t believe he said that.  Oh, wait that was Biden, not Trump?  Never mind.

Certainly on par with the classlessness and stupidity of bragging about crowd sizes when visiting shooting victims.

Makes one want to vomit:

"An individual briefed on the matter confirmed to CNN's Jake Tapper a Washington Post report that not one of the eight patients still being treated at University Medical Center wanted to meet with the President so administrators brought back two patients who had already been discharged and who expressed a willingness to meet with him.

A hospital official familiar with the President's trip cautioned that some of those patients did not want to meet with anybody because of their conditions. The official went on to say that there was a general assessment that there was 'an absence of empathy' on Trump's part."

purplehaze posted:
wineart 2 posted:

Ha. The hospital patients in El Paso refused to see the orange racist so the White House had to have two previously released patients return so that there would be someone for him to see.😂

Now the White House staff is admitting the trip didn’t go as hoped, and hospital administrators saying the orange racist was completely devoid of empathy. No shit! 

But, but but... he spoke so eloquently about the poor people of Toledo!  

Of course, another geezer with aspirations for office (sorry bman, I know you like him) offered his sympathies to the people of Houston and Michigan. 

New rule.  If you're 71 or older, no presidency for you!  I added a year, because I'm actually kinda digging Elizabeth Warren lately.  And I'd LOVE to see her on a debate stage with the dotard.   

PH

I like whoever can most assuredly get Donnie Dickhead out of office.  That seemed to be Biden but I agree he has lost much of his lustre.  Still, he's miles ahead of DD by any positive measure (and miles behind on the negative ones!) and I suspect the hatchet job the Republicans would do on other leading candidates could neuter any electoral advantages they have - Warren more so than the others.  So still hoping for a Biden/Harris ticket.  For now.

[Photo: Melania Trump via Instagram)

Two grinning idiots, one holding an infant who has become an orphan because of a shooter who parrots the racist-in-chief's own words. A "president" who only a few months ago when he asked the crowd what to do with these "invaders" and someone shouted out "shoot them" grinned and said "you can only get away with in the Panhandle." Yuck, yuck.

Whether he has any responsibility for the increase in hate crimes in the last two and a half years (spoiler alert, he does) this is not how you comfort a grieving community. They are not all there for your photo op. They are not there to hear about your crowd size at a recent rally and they sure aren't there to hear your airing of grievances (for the bigot-in-chief everyday is Festivus.)  A human pig.

TOM.  You neglected to mention that this photograph made its way into the media because it was tweeted by Melania trump.  Not the uncle (on the left).  For just a little context, the uncle and the deceased father were trump supporters.  But, holding an orphan with a beaming grin, and the moron-in-chief flashing a thumbs up sign given the circumstances is just another example of how tone-deaf and lacking in compassion this misbegotten family is.

PH

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