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I don't know if there was a clear cut winner, as it was an embarrassment quite frankly.  Wallace sucked as a moderator, Biden scored no points by calling Trump a Clown and telling him to Shut up (even though it was warranted), and anyone that thinks Trump came off looking good must support Fake Bullies that call upon deranged racist white guys to 'stand by' awaiting his commands. 

He won't denounce white supremacy, he's trying to actively delegitimize that election, and is calling for violence.  He's a complete and utter embarrassment.  

If I was the Biden campaign I would not debate again unless they can shut off his mic when it's not his turn.  

debate = fist fight.  The bully only gave his basic $hit talk, no policies, no plans.  In a night of damning lines, to me, it was one of the worst of the night. And it made me sick to my stomach.

While Trump's debate answers seemed aimed at providing aid and comfort to extremists and conspiracy theorists, Biden's message was one of unity, assurance and a return to normality.

The Commander in Chief of the United States military refused to condemn White supremacy.  He gave a wink and a nod to a far-right extremist organization -- The Proud Boys -- telling them to stand back & stand by.  For riot control?

Biden was justified to tell him to shut up.  Next debate should be by ZOOM, and have only one mic working at once [Biden's] .   Or possibly just cancel the next two debates.  I like Kirsten Welker, but don't think she is powerful enough to control a bully.  Maybe we should give her a bat or a Taser

Last edited by flwino
@bman posted:

You really should try some sources that use actual facts rather than made-up stuff, Napa.  Seriously.  Given the partisanship of so many American news sources, maybe check your "alternate facts" above against the BBC, or CBC or The Economist or some other reputable non-American news source.  Seriously, you're just embarrassing yourself with the nonsense and BS you post!

Really??? Which part is incorrect or not a fact in the statement I posted.  Those words were direct from Ron Klain. Do I need to link the video?  

Trump made two mistakes.  First when discussing Beau Biden, Trump should have said, that as a parent, he was very sorry for Joe's loss of a son.

And certainly should have come out a lot stronger on denouncing white supremacy...but he really did that when speaking about Charlottsville...but of course, his follow up Q & A got twisted.

Breathtaking defense by the black Republican in the Senate.

"I think he misspoke in response to Chris Wallace's comment. He was asking Chris what he wanted [him] to say, I think he misspoke. I think he should correct it. If he doesn't correct it, I guess he didn't misspeak."

Apparently a lot of other Republican Congress people weren't watching because you don't hear them out there trying to defend the Trump shit show.

@csm posted:

A good guy like being a segregationist? Or voting against the civil rights act? Just curious. 

Biden is a piece of garbage. He’s just slightly less ripe than Trump. Who frankly cleaned Biden’s clock in the debate.  

If cleaning his clock means he shouted louder and longer, and said absolutely nothing g of substance, then yeah, he cleaned his clock. 

@bman posted:

You really wanna offer Pence's Chief of Staff as a credible source?  Like I said, try a non-American news source. 

In what world did Ron Klain work for Mike Pence?   Ron Klain worked under the Obama admin.  And was Chief of staff to VP Al Gore and VP Joe Biden.  C'mon Man...get a clue.  And I'll ask again. What part of what I posted is untrue?   I'll give you a hint...none of it.  

Do you get your Canadian news from the U.S.?  

@patespo1 posted:

I don't know if there was a clear cut winner, as it was an embarrassment quite frankly.  Wallace sucked as a moderator, Biden scored no points by calling Trump a Clown and telling him to Shut up (even though it was warranted), and anyone that thinks Trump came off looking good must support Fake Bullies that call upon deranged racist white guys to 'stand by' awaiting his commands. 

He won't denounce white supremacy, he's trying to actively delegitimize that election, and is calling for violence.  He's a complete and utter embarrassment.  

If I was the Biden campaign I would not debate again unless they can shut off his mic when it's not his turn.  

That pretty much sums up my response. In addition, Biden needs more coaching on how to respond when Trump interrupts and goads him. Last night, every time Trump talked over him, Biden stopped speaking, so it was hard for him to string together a full sentence and say anything of substance. That, combined with the holdovers from his childhood stuttering, made him seem uncertain. Regardless, he still said more of substance than Trump who simply trotted out the same lies and fear mongering that hAve been his modus operandi for the past year (or 4).

One lie: the Portland sheriff said after the debate that he absolutely does not support Trump. And that was just one of many flat out lies he told. 

Last edited by sunnylea57
@napacat posted:

In what world did Ron Klain work for Mike Pence?   Ron Klain worked under the Obama admin.  And was Chief of staff to VP Al Gore and VP Joe Biden.  C'mon Man...get a clue.  And I'll ask again. What part of what I posted is untrue?   I'll give you a hint...none of it.  

Do you get your Canadian news from the U.S.?  

Wrong VP!  That'll teach me to read only the first line or two when I google something!  But re your quote of Ron Klain, well, I couldn't find it, but I did find this one:

""Klain says his comments, which were made at a biosecurity summit, referred solely to the administration’s difficulties in producing enough of an H1N1 vaccine to meet public demand. The Obama team, he says, quickly adapted to the situation, making choices that were starkly different from those the Trump administration would make 11 years later, such as quickly distributing emergency equipment from the federal stockpile, deferring to public health experts and having them take the lead on messaging.""

So that part of what you said would certainly seem to be untrue.  As was your comment that Biden is corrupt (and not even comparing him to the obviously criminal Trump, and not just when talking about deducting payments to his daughter as consulting fees!).

As for where I get Canadian political news, well, if American news covered anything political anywhere else (it's largest trading partner with whom it shares the longest undefended border in the world, for example)  I would watch it. But American political news covers only American politics, so I can't do that.  You and other Americans, on the other hand, can escape the toxicity of American political reporting by checking out other countries' coverage of American politics.  Spoiler alert:  pretty much every other country thinks Trump and the Republicans are a disaster, not because of any liberal bias or whatever, but because they are.  And so their reporting reflects that

@napacat posted:

but one thing is for sure, Biden had ZERO substance on anything.   

Just one example of Biden offering substance:  Wallace asked him to explain what he meant by a K-shaped recovery and he did so simply and clearly:  some getting richer while many get poorer.  There are other examples and there would probably have been more if Trump would have let him finish a sentence

@sunnylea57 posted:

That pretty much sums up my response. In addition, Biden needs more coaching on how to respond when Trump interrupts and goads him. Last night, every time Trump talked over him, Biden stopped speaking, so it was hard for him to string together a full sentence and say anything of substance. 

What he did wrong was he would stop and address everything Trump said to him. Therefore causing Trump to become the moderator. What you should have done is stopped what he was saying, look straight ahead at the camera, and wait till Trump finished. And then just start again picking up.

@The Old Man posted:

What he did wrong was he would stop and address everything Trump said to him. Therefore causing Trump to become the moderator. What you should have done is stopped what he was saying, look straight ahead at the camera, and wait till Trump finished. And then just start again picking up.

A flaw in your strategy -- Trump never stops talking unless someone stops him!

@bman posted:

Wrong VP!  That'll teach me to read only the first line or two when I google something!  But re your quote of Ron Klain, well, I couldn't find it, but I did find this one:

""Klain says his comments, which were made at a biosecurity summit, referred solely to the administration’s difficulties in producing enough of an H1N1 vaccine to meet public demand. The Obama team, he says, quickly adapted to the situation, making choices that were starkly different from those the Trump administration would make 11 years later, such as quickly distributing emergency equipment from the federal stockpile, deferring to public health experts and having them take the lead on messaging.""

So that part of what you said would certainly seem to be untrue.  As was your comment that Biden is corrupt (and not even comparing him to the obviously criminal Trump, and not just when talking about deducting payments to his daughter as consulting fees!).

As for where I get Canadian political news, well, if American news covered anything political anywhere else (it's largest trading partner with whom it shares the longest undefended border in the world, for example)  I would watch it. But American political news covers only American politics, so I can't do that.  You and other Americans, on the other hand, can escape the toxicity of American political reporting by checking out other countries' coverage of American politics.  Spoiler alert:  pretty much every other country thinks Trump and the Republicans are a disaster, not because of any liberal bias or whatever, but because they are.  And so their reporting reflects that

Link here. Nothing to do with a vaccine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c2PmErlEzQ

@napacat posted:

Link here. Nothing to do with a vaccine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c2PmErlEzQ

Fair enough, though I suspect some context is missing as he's just about to say something else when the video clicks off.  And he clarified his comments later, as I posted above.

Also, this, from Politico:

""Biden’s role, while significant, was not equivalent to leading the response. He was the administration’s main liaison to governors and Congress and succeeded in securing funding from skeptical leaders. Biden’s attempt at messaging, via the “Today” interview, proved that he, at least, took the threat of a pandemic very seriously. But by issuing warnings that others in the administration weren’t prepared to endorse, he contributed to a muddled message.

Biden declined to comment, but former officials described a White House, still in its infancy, bogged down by seismic economic challenges and struggling to keep its signature promise for a universal health care plan. With a Health and Human Services Department still bereft of more than a dozen officials — including the Cabinet secretary — the Obama team now had a fast-moving pandemic with unknown lethality bearing down on them.""

In any case, Trump has made such a mess of the Covid-19 crisis than whatever Biden did or didn't do 11 years ago on H1N1 pales in comparison to the tens of thousands dead, with tens of thousands more to die, millions infected, and the economy in tatters due to Trump's failure of leadership.  The US has the 9th highest rate of death per population at the moment.  Next door Canada with a very similar decentralized health system and all but one of the provincial premiers being of a different party than the Prime Minister, has the 26th highest death rate.  Why is Canada doing so much better?  Because political leaders put their differences aside and worked together, rather than being lied to and mislead by them, as Trump did.

@Rothko posted:

They seriously need to give the Moderator control over the microphones next time.  Someone interrupts the other and you dump his mike.   If there is a next time.  And even if there is, who in their right minds are going to tune in for another sh!tshow debate like last night's?

I don’t think the fuckery displayed would make many people avoid it. We may see the opposite in anticipation of something similar, or even more cringeworthy. Murica!

@Rothko posted:

They seriously need to give the Moderator control over the microphones next time.  Someone interrupts the other and you dump his mike.   If there is a next time.  And even if there is, who in their right minds are going to tune in for another sh!tshow debate like last night's?

I agree. But I don't think they'll do that, because I expect they think that it makes for good TV (as in Jerry Springer Show "good").

@bman posted:

Fair enough, though I suspect some context is missing as he's just about to say something else when the video clicks off.  And he clarified his comments later, as I posted above.

Also, this, from Politico:

""Biden’s role, while significant, was not equivalent to leading the response. He was the administration’s main liaison to governors and Congress and succeeded in securing funding from skeptical leaders. Biden’s attempt at messaging, via the “Today” interview, proved that he, at least, took the threat of a pandemic very seriously. But by issuing warnings that others in the administration weren’t prepared to endorse, he contributed to a muddled message.

Biden declined to comment, but former officials described a White House, still in its infancy, bogged down by seismic economic challenges and struggling to keep its signature promise for a universal health care plan. With a Health and Human Services Department still bereft of more than a dozen officials — including the Cabinet secretary — the Obama team now had a fast-moving pandemic with unknown lethality bearing down on them.""

In any case, Trump has made such a mess of the Covid-19 crisis than whatever Biden did or didn't do 11 years ago on H1N1 pales in comparison to the tens of thousands dead, with tens of thousands more to die, millions infected, and the economy in tatters due to Trump's failure of leadership.  The US has the 9th highest rate of death per population at the moment.  Next door Canada with a very similar decentralized health system and all but one of the provincial premiers being of a different party than the Prime Minister, has the 26th highest death rate.  Why is Canada doing so much better?  Because political leaders put their differences aside and worked together, rather than being lied to and mislead by them, as Trump did.

bman, why bother? He'll just respond with another irrational non sequitur. (He's not very bright.)

@sunnylea57 posted:

I agree. But I don't think they'll do that, because I expect they think that it makes for good TV (as in Jerry Springer Show "good").

Actually, like on Jerry, perhaps Trump will charge over and try to attack him to show his alpha "strength."

How hard is it to say, "I condemn all white supremacists and racists"? He could always cross his fingers behind his back while thinking, "Unless they love me."

More of the lies and mistruths Trump spouted last night:

Trump claimed that Biden called the military "stupid bastards". In fact, in a 2016 visit to an air base near Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates, Lt. Karen Johnson – a native of Wilmington, Delaware – introduced Biden to the rest of the troops. After Biden made a complimentary remark about Johnson and the troops didn't applaud her, Biden made a joke about them being "stupid bastards" and that they must be a "dull bunch". “Vice President Biden was jokingly encouraging the audience to clap for an airwoman on the stage, and a number of service members can be seen laughing and smiling at the comment. Seconds before, he praised them for 'the incredible sacrifices (they) make for our country,’” Bates told The Daily Beast.

Trump claimed that Biden said he attended Delaware State U, an all-black school. In fact, Biden said he got his "start at DSU", referring to the support he received from the school when he announced his bid for the U.S. Senate on the DSU campus in 1972.

Trump claimed that Biden once called African-Americans "super-predators". Not true. It was Hillary who used the term in reference to a crime bill in 1996. Clinton said: "We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels, they are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called super-predators - no conscience, no empathy."  Biden did say in a speech that we need to keep "predators off our streets", but there was no reference, direct or implied, to African-Americans.

Trump claimed that Hunter Biden was dishonourably discharged from the military. That's not true. 

Trump claimed his poll watchers were thrown out of a polling station. Not true. They were not allowed into a satellite election station. Philadelphia law does not allow for poll watchers to enter satellite elections stations, only polling stations.

Trump said he's "all for electric cars. I've given big incentives for electric cars." That's false. He is trying to eliminate tax incentives for consumers who buy them. 

Trump said Obama "left me 128 judges to full. They left 128 openings." The only reason this happened is because the Republican-led Senate refused to confirm Obama's nominees – including of course, Judge Merrick Garland.

And then, of course, there were Trump's many lies last night about the integrity of mail-in ballots.

Last edited by sunnylea57
@bman posted:

Fair enough, though I suspect some context is missing as he's just about to say something else when the video clicks off.  And he clarified his comments later, as I posted above.

Also, this, from Politico:

""Biden’s role, while significant, was not equivalent to leading the response. He was the administration’s main liaison to governors and Congress and succeeded in securing funding from skeptical leaders. Biden’s attempt at messaging, via the “Today” interview, proved that he, at least, took the threat of a pandemic very seriously. But by issuing warnings that others in the administration weren’t prepared to endorse, he contributed to a muddled message.

Biden declined to comment, but former officials described a White House, still in its infancy, bogged down by seismic economic challenges and struggling to keep its signature promise for a universal health care plan. With a Health and Human Services Department still bereft of more than a dozen officials — including the Cabinet secretary — the Obama team now had a fast-moving pandemic with unknown lethality bearing down on them.""

In any case, Trump has made such a mess of the Covid-19 crisis than whatever Biden did or didn't do 11 years ago on H1N1 pales in comparison to the tens of thousands dead, with tens of thousands more to die, millions infected, and the economy in tatters due to Trump's failure of leadership.  The US has the 9th highest rate of death per population at the moment.  Next door Canada with a very similar decentralized health system and all but one of the provincial premiers being of a different party than the Prime Minister, has the 26th highest death rate.  Why is Canada doing so much better?  Because political leaders put their differences aside and worked together, rather than being lied to and mislead by them, as Trump did.

why bother responding to the copy paster.  he has literally 0 original thought of his own.  At best he can muster is a youtube vid of someone else reciting what they heard on reddit or some rando guy who needs the latest conspiracy theory to make a few bucks on a few clicks.  At best, he's the boomer versino of millennials saying "This ..." to everything they see.  At worst, you're literally arguing against a discredited website/youtuber.

Last edited by g-man
@g-man posted:

why bother responding to the copy paster.  he has literally 0 original thought of his own.  At best he can muster is a youtube vid of someone else reciting what they heard on reddit or some rando guy who needs the latest conspiracy theory to make a few bucks on a few clicks.  At best, he's the boomer versino of millennials saying "This ..." to everything they see.  At worst, you're literally arguing against a discredited website/youtuber.

I like a challenge but sometimes one just wants to pick the low-hanging fruit. 

@csm posted:

Biden is a "good guy" only in comparison to Trump, which isn't saying much.  It may be enough to get him elected, but it doesn't necessarily mean he'd be a good president or a good candidate for president, other than in comparison to Don. 

It's sad that this is the best that anyone can attract to run.  Anyone that truly is qualified for the job is smart enough to realize they don't want it. A truly sad state of affairs. 

Agreed but remember, the good guys like Bernie were pushed to side twice to allow those with a centrist corporate agenda to maintain policies not too dissimilar to Centrist Republicans. That being said, even if I appreciated some of Trump’s non-interventionist positions in world affairs, he made a huge ass of himself and embarrassed himself and US politics as an unworthy clown devoid of any humanity.

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