Oh, and lest you think this is only in education... A Massachusetts delegate introduced a bill today that would make it illegal to call someone a bitch in the commonwealth of Massachusetts. The fine for the first offense would be $150. Second offense only $200 — but also 6 months in jail. Will this bill pass?  Probably not; it isn’t even entirely clear how much support the proposer is going to give it. And, obviously, it is a prima facia violation of the First Amendment.  But you can be sure this will be a story of a true thing on Fox News tomorrow.  And some swing voters watch Fox.

Sadly, there will be far more instances of Far-Left lunacy between now and the general. And any candidate that leans into the madness is going to lose the states he (or she) needs to win.  

IMO, candidates most likely fully to make the election a referendum on Trump are also the most likely to carry the day.  In my view, Biden (running with Klobuchar) is the candidate most likely to make the election about Trump. Say what you want about him, he is *safe*. He couldn’t scare a grasshopper. And I also believe that will be critical to carrying the day... and *nobody* is going to accuse him of being hyper-politically-correct. Which may harm him in the primaries, but which I believe would be at least a wash — and, likely, an asset — during the General. 

winetarelli posted:

Oh, and lest you think this is only in education... A Massachusetts delegate introduced a bill today that would make it illegal to call someone a bitch in the commonwealth of Massachusetts. The fine for the first offense would be $150. Second offense only $200 — but also 6 months in jail. Will this bill pass?  Probably not; it isn’t even entirely clear how much support the proposer is going to give it. And, obviously, it is a prima facia violation of the First Amendment.  But you can be sure this will be a story of a true thing on Fox News tomorrow.  And some swing voters watch Fox.

Sadly, there will be far more instances of Far-Left lunacy between now and the general. And any candidate that leans into the madness is going to lose the states he (or she) needs to win.  

IMO, candidates most likely fully to make the election a referendum on Trump are also the most likely to carry the day.  In my view, Biden (running with Klobuchar) is the candidate most likely to make the election about Trump. Say what you want about him, he is *safe*. He couldn’t scare a grasshopper. And I also believe that will be critical to carrying the day... and *nobody* is going to accuse him of being hyper-politically-correct. Which may harm him in the primaries, but which I believe would be at least a wash — and, likely, an asset — during the General. 

Agree re Biden and Klobuchar, or perhaps Harris.  But Biden needs to show that he has his $hit together and stop getting his facts wrong and making other simple errors that diminish confidence in his mental health and raise concerns about his age.

"A Massachusetts delegate introduced a bill today that would make it illegal to call someone a bitch in the commonwealth of Massachusetts. The fine for the first offense would be $150. Second offense only $200 — but also 6 months in jail. Will this bill pass?"

Does it also provide a penalty for calling someone a "son of a bitch" or just a first generation bitch?  Some politicians are true idiots.  Years ago, a member of the state legislature here in MD took his pants to the dry cleaners.  When he got them back, the dry cleaner had affixed the tag to the pants lining with a staple, and the legislator ripped his pants while trying to remove the tag and staple.  Hence, he introduced a law to require dry cleaners to affix the tags with safety pins. 

Believe that the primary results will shock us all.  The three leaders all have issues, and things will get sorted out.  We may have a black horse in the field, that most polls have discounted.  Also see that some donors want Bloomberg [SP} to run.

bman posted:
winetarelli posted:

Oh, and lest you think this is only in education... A Massachusetts delegate introduced a bill today that would make it illegal to call someone a bitch in the commonwealth of Massachusetts. The fine for the first offense would be $150. Second offense only $200 — but also 6 months in jail. Will this bill pass?  Probably not; it isn’t even entirely clear how much support the proposer is going to give it. And, obviously, it is a prima facia violation of the First Amendment.  But you can be sure this will be a story of a true thing on Fox News tomorrow.  And some swing voters watch Fox.

Sadly, there will be far more instances of Far-Left lunacy between now and the general. And any candidate that leans into the madness is going to lose the states he (or she) needs to win.  

IMO, candidates most likely fully to make the election a referendum on Trump are also the most likely to carry the day.  In my view, Biden (running with Klobuchar) is the candidate most likely to make the election about Trump. Say what you want about him, he is *safe*. He couldn’t scare a grasshopper. And I also believe that will be critical to carrying the day... and *nobody* is going to accuse him of being hyper-politically-correct. Which may harm him in the primaries, but which I believe would be at least a wash — and, likely, an asset — during the General. 

Agree re Biden and Klobuchar, or perhaps Harris.  But Biden needs to show that he has his $hit together and stop getting his facts wrong and making other simple errors that diminish confidence in his mental health and raise concerns about his age.

Understand the comments about Biden, yet he had the same issues 20 years ago. It is just who he has always been. Hard to say how much has to do with his age. 

arsenal4ever posted:

Just fascists who hide behind masks. Now call me a Trump-supporter like you did incorrectly before, and then apologize like you did then.

What are you carrying out about? Fascism has always been associated, no matter where in the world it occurs, with the far right. I'm not going to call you a Trump supporter, just someone as ignorant as one.

ProSys posted:

Looking forward to seeing the list of names of the House GOP dummies who stormed the deposition.......

Real idiots.  There are GOP folks on all the committees taking depositions from what I understand, so why cause a disturbance, other than to kiss someones butt.

wineart 2 posted:
bman posted:
winetarelli posted:

Oh, and lest you think this is only in education... A Massachusetts delegate introduced a bill today that would make it illegal to call someone a bitch in the commonwealth of Massachusetts. The fine for the first offense would be $150. Second offense only $200 — but also 6 months in jail. Will this bill pass?  Probably not; it isn’t even entirely clear how much support the proposer is going to give it. And, obviously, it is a prima facia violation of the First Amendment.  But you can be sure this will be a story of a true thing on Fox News tomorrow.  And some swing voters watch Fox.

Sadly, there will be far more instances of Far-Left lunacy between now and the general. And any candidate that leans into the madness is going to lose the states he (or she) needs to win.  

IMO, candidates most likely fully to make the election a referendum on Trump are also the most likely to carry the day.  In my view, Biden (running with Klobuchar) is the candidate most likely to make the election about Trump. Say what you want about him, he is *safe*. He couldn’t scare a grasshopper. And I also believe that will be critical to carrying the day... and *nobody* is going to accuse him of being hyper-politically-correct. Which may harm him in the primaries, but which I believe would be at least a wash — and, likely, an asset — during the General. 

Agree re Biden and Klobuchar, or perhaps Harris.  But Biden needs to show that he has his $hit together and stop getting his facts wrong and making other simple errors that diminish confidence in his mental health and raise concerns about his age.

Understand the comments about Biden, yet he had the same issues 20 years ago. It is just who he has always been. Hard to say how much has to do with his age. 

Yep. 

Regarding “far-Left” vs. “far-RIght” extremism... right now in the U.S. and in most of the Western world, far-Right extremism is a far bigger, more immediate, and far far more violent threat than far-Left. Far-Right extremism is almost singularly the immediate cause of backsliding libral democracies. 

The underlying causes of the rise of far-Right nationalism (ethno-nationalism, religious nationalism) are complicated and intertwined and I would not let anyone completely off the hook; though, even setting aside Russia and trolls and bots, I believe the insular and simplistic worlds that social media has created are the single biggest cause.  But by far the greatest current threats to libral democracy in the present — both in the U.S. and in other heretofore libral democracies — come from the Right. 

This (1) does not mean we should leave the illiberal aspects of the far Left alone to fester and grow. The far Left has gotten bigger, more powerful, and more violent in recent years.  And (2) it does not mean that far Left extremism doesn’t have the capacity to be just as illiberal, violent, and destructive of the human spirit. While I cannot think of a singular act as evil as the Holocaust — perpetrated by people we generally ascribe to the Right, though it is a little more complicated than that — between China and the USSR, the far Left is at least as responsible for overall global suffering during the 20th century as the far Right. Even now, China is putting millions of Uighur Muslims is concertration camps and re-educating them... and harvesting their organs.

So, to reiterate, in the U.S. and in the Western world, generally, in 2019, far Right extremism is by far the biggest political threat we face. In fact, in the U.S. it is currently the biggest terrorist threat we face.  (And of course the ideologies of these assholes are being propped up by our current President.)  But it does not follow that far Right extremism is intrinsically worse or more dangerous; or that far Left extremism should not also be taken seriously as a threat to libral democracy and addressed accordingly. 

 

The Old Man posted:

"Far Left can easily be as bad as the Far Right."

Nope, no white nationalists on my team.

Let me give you another example. I mentioned the homeless problem in Seattle before. The area around the courthouse where I work is littered with urine, feces, and discarded needles and other garbage. It is a health hazard, and a safety hazard to the workers and public who show up for jury duty. In fact, not long ago a homeless person attacked the (then) County Sheriff himself with a knife right outside the courthouse. Other workers have been attacked, as well. One of the presiding judges has publicly called for the city to pressure wash the sidewalks outside the courthouse so at least the bio-hazard aspects can be mitigated. But that was halted when one of the city councilmen called such a display, an "act of micro-aggression" against the transients outside the courthouse. They are trying to de-fund the city navigation teams that contact the homeless and try to get them into shelters and services, believing that is infringing on their "rights" to live on the streets in filth and squalor.  One councilperson publicly called the police "murderers" for shooting an armed suspect as he was caught on camera pulling his gun on them during a warrant arrest. And this was after they were cleared by Internal investigations and the prosecutor's office. The violent Antifa movement is a protected group now in Seattle. That's the flip side of the white nationalist coin, TOM.

My original point was, and I admit it probably got lost in the shuffle, is that the Dems need to nominate a more centrist candidate than the deluded, Far Left hopefuls that I saw in the debates, or they are going to condemn us all to 4 more years of Trumpism. 

When it comes to domestic terrorism the far left in no way compares to the death toll of the far right. As for big bad ANTIFA, please don't provide me links to right wing radio (what next Fox "News"?) to make your point. It really weakens it. From Forbes 2017:

"Terrorists murdered 3,342 people on U.S. soil from 1992 through August 12, 2017. Islamist terrorists are responsible for 92% of all those murders. The 9/11 attacks, by themselves, killed about 89% of all the victims during this time. During this time, the chance of being murdered in a terrorist attack committed by an Islamist was about 1 in 2.5 million per year.

"Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists are the second deadliest group by ideology, as they account for 6.6% of all terrorist murders during this time. The 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, the second deadliest terrorist attack in U.S. history, killed 168 people and accounted for 77% of all the murders committed by Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists. The chance of being murdered in a Nationalist or Right Wing terrorist attack was about 1 in 33 million per year.

"Left Wing terrorists killed only 23 people in terrorist attacks during this time, about 0.7% of the total number of murders, but 13 since the beginning of 2016. Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists have only killed five since then, including Charlottesville. Regardless, the annual chance of being murdered by a Left Wing terrorist was about 1 in 330 million per year."

This doesn't even include some of the recent right wing hate crimes such as the attack on the synagogue in Pittsburgh. 

Side note:  Recently at an event at my synagogue a number of rabbis showed up. I shook one's hand, he was in his late 60s or so. For some reason he had a blue cloth napkin wrapped around one hand. And then--When you look into someone's eyes who looked into the eyes of a terrorist, and had two fingers blow off protecting himself as he watched a woman congregant die in front of him--it really comes home.

If not clear I was talking about violence in the US and not what Stalin or Mao did fifty to a hundred years ago. To you both: Please no more false equivalence.

 

 

mneeley490 posted:

TOM, I believe I was speaking more toward ideology, rather than a death scorecard. Interesting that you keep score, however.  I view Trump supporters and Social Justice Warriors with equal disdain. 

Keeping score! Member of my religion were slaughtered a year ago for being Jewish and and the other shooting occurred 30 miles from my synagogue killing and affecting people we knew at a place many of us had been to.  We now have an armed guard. Everywhere you look hate crimes are on the rise, and they are overwhelmingly from the far and fringe right. The "score" as you call it was not maintained by me but given by in a magazine report. 

"Interesting that you keep score, however.  I view Trump supporters and Social Justice Warriors with equal disdain."

You're accusing me of keeping score? What a disgusting, vile comment. I looked up the numbers yesterday for the first time because there seemed some challenge to where most of the violent hate in this country comes from. (I of course was not surprised at the numbers.) I only recently learned what the term SJW means and it sure doesn't describe me. I've been attacked, sometimes (often?) deservedly on this forum, but this is a new low.

winetarelli posted:
The Old Man posted:
winetarelli posted:
wineart 2 posted:
The Old Man posted:

I know we're all (almost all) having a jolly old time with the latest foibles of the bigot in chief. But I have to throw a little cold water in here. First, as I've said many times before: The craven Republicans will continue to be party before country and do everything to protect their bill-signer in chief.

Second, there's a whole heap of stupidity among the American electorate. 

I would add the democrats must elect a person that can compete/ carry many states in the rust belt. Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio plus purple states like Virginia, Florida, Colorado and New Mexico and others will not support too left candidates or socialists platform candidates. 

I totally agree with this. However, I would add that I think the bigger problem Democrats face in general — and particularly in the rust belt — is in addressing the cultural far left as opposed to the economic far left.  

While I have problems with any form of extremism or staunch ideological stances, it is far-left, often authoritarian, cultural issues that, in my estimation, cause so many to refuse to vote for Democrats.  I’m not talking about reproductive rights, or prison reform or abolition of the Death Peanalty, (sic) or same-sex marriage, or combatting (sic)  climate change, or treating immigrants and refugees  (including “illegal”  immigrants) humanely and often with open arms.  Those are all basic moral/ethical issues and I think there are enough people in the rust belt open to all of them that those and issues such as those really aren’t a problem  

But instead: ‘accidental mispronunciation of a name “is violence”’ — like so many other examples of being offended; Liberals like Frank Bruni, Bari Weiss, Jonathan Haidt “are Alt-Right or Alt-Right adjacent”; shouting down speakers at colleges is acceptable; BDS and creeping acceptance of nonviolent anti-semetism; Absurdity in public education - eg. Just today in Seattle... Math classes in K-12 should incorporate ethnic studies teaching including, “Where does power and oppression show up in our math experiences?”  “Why/how does data-driven processes prevent liberation?”*  “Who gets to say if an answer is right?” Teachers should accept late work because it “refuse[s] the White Gaze.”

Obviously, even amongst most Ds, the aforementioned examples are totally absurd. But they are very real in certain parts of the country and amongst enough Leftists that (1) they should actually be addressed and, perhaps more importantly (2) they are used by Fox News and other Right-Wing media agencies to scare people— especially those in the Rust Belt whose interests otherwise coincide with the Democratic Party — into the arms of the Republican party. 

*Obviosly, grammar is not Seattle educators’ strong suit, either. 

Hogwash. Most of this could have been written by the nauseating Trumpers at my synagogue. The president of the USA calls the legal process of a "lynching" and his sycophantic golf buddy Lindsey Graham agrees and you're worried about some stupid actions taken by a school district in WA? Get your priorities straight.

Whoa there!  I’m currently dedicating much of  my life — both time and money —to defeating Trump no matter who the D nominee is.  (Right now that means giving money to, and volunteering for Biden almost solely due to my belief that he has the best chance of beating Trump.  But come the general, I’ll be doing that for whomever the nominee is.)  That doesn’t change the fact that I have (a) some problems with people nominally on “my team” and (b) serious concerns about how people in the rust belt can be swayed to (re) vote for Trump based upon how Right Wing media reports on the excesses of some factions of the cultural far left. 

If you really couldn’t tell from me calling Trump the “malevolent cheetoh”, referencing every major politically salient point on the political D agenda as ones which I support, and implying here, and noting elsewhere, that it is only a small but vocal contingent on the “far left” that I have any personal objection to, that I am at least left-of-center and certainly in opposition to Trump under all scenarios, I think you need to take a breath.  There is no point in letting Trump turn you into a moron, too.  (In point of fact, I’m a life-long Democrat who went door-to-door for Human Rights Campaign in Ohio in the 90’s before I could even vote, in support of gay marriage; played Phil Ochs on my guitar at Kucinich rallies; spent my college summers working for the state PIRGs and the Sierra Club; worked on the Kerry campaign as my first job out of college; worked on the Obama campaign; my three major charities are the ADL, the ACLU, and Planned Parenthood; I held rallies starting a decade before the crash in opposition to minimum-balance oppression; I have marched with BLM. My Liberal and Democratic credentials are in order, let alone, my anti-Trump credentials.)

My good God man grow a pair.  Can you apologize any more?  Oh I am a great Liberal...worked on the Kerry and Obama campaign, marched with BLM (this disqualifies you as a serious person of any intelligence) and your three major charities are ridiculous.  Try St. Jude...would be a lot more useful.  

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