billhike posted:

Surely you aren't questioning the  methods of someone from the great Wharton School of Business.

funny he graduated with a degree in economics too, but i hear that he was too interested in real estate to bother doing well in most of the economics classes

Trump enacts massive tariffs which are really bad for farmers and now he’s announced a $12 billion fund to help farmers.  It’s sort of like intentionally severing another person’s hand and then coming to the rescue with a tourniquet.
 
Meanwhile, he’s said that “Of course it was Russia” and then “I believe Putin” and then “I agree with the intelligence community” and then “It’s a hoax.”  The guy changes sides more
frequently than a windshield wiper on the “high” setting.
g-man posted:

Fresh round of tax cuts, free money to farmers, 1.5 trillion giveaway already on the books.

Someone should inform this congress that you don't practice recession stimulation techniques when times are good.  It leads to this thing called inflation.

i can only imagine lamenting to my kids when in ten years, that back in my day, apples were 1$.

That subsidy to the farmers is called a BRIBE!!  Try to keep his votes

flwino posted:

As an aside I am not to read the paper or watch the news as that does not tell me what is happening.  Only what the orange man said happened.  I thought 1984 was 34 years ago!

If you want objectivity about your politics the closest you can get is probably only to be found outside your borders, so to speak:  BBC and CBC on TV, The Economist or the Globe and Mail if you want to read it rather than see and hear it.  No country follows American politics more closely than Canada, followed by the Brits.  Everyone here hates Trump and the Republicans as much as anyone else but at least they make an effort to be objective.

bman posted:
flwino posted:

As an aside I am not to read the paper or watch the news as that does not tell me what is happening.  Only what the orange man said happened.  I thought 1984 was 34 years ago!

If you want objectivity about your politics the closest you can get is probably only to be found outside your borders, so to speak:  BBC and CBC on TV, The Economist or the Globe and Mail if you want to read it rather than see and hear it.  No country follows American politics more closely than Canada, followed by the Brits.  Everyone here hates Trump and the Republicans as much as anyone else but at least they make an effort to be objective.

Calling the CBC objective is laugh out loud funny.  

csm posted

Calling the CBC objective is laugh out loud funny.  

On American politics?  I've usually found them consistent in content and tone with the other outlets I mentioned above.  If anything, they seem a little too forgiving when it comes to reporting on Trump's lies, cluelessness and general idiocy.

purplehaze posted:
g-man posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In1Krls9QCc

This is too terrible to let go.  This is literally 1984 happening in our lifetimes.

The white house has edited out the actual transcript and the video.

Super creepy.  Even for this group.

PH

The video has now been taken down. And the Washington Post has an explanation: https://www.washingtonpost.com...utin-out-of-a-video/

csm posted:
bman posted:
csm posted

Calling the CBC objective is laugh out loud funny.  

On American politics?  

On anything.  

So who do you consider objective?  Or close to objective, which is how I originally described the news outlets I mentioned above.

sunnylea57 posted:
purplehaze posted:
g-man posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In1Krls9QCc

This is too terrible to let go.  This is literally 1984 happening in our lifetimes.

The white house has edited out the actual transcript and the video.

Super creepy.  Even for this group.

PH

The video has now been taken down. And the Washington Post has an explanation: https://www.washingtonpost.com...utin-out-of-a-video/

Just read this.  Makes sense.  Oh, well... just wait a little bit.  Something truly wacky will come along.

PH

purplehaze posted:
wineart 2 posted:

PH, the NJ conman thinks everyone is as gullible as his tribal cult. 

He only plays to and cares about his cult, period. 

I will offer them all vodka shots and bong-hits, in the spirit of conciliation.  Even the couple of friends I have that voted for the dotard are embarrassed and contrite at this point.  I only hope that right-thinking Americans are energized in November.  That's "energised," to you, b-man!  

I predict major interference, sleight of hand and disinformation this fall in an attempt to distract voters from the idiocy that is currently going on.  Stay focused, America.

Oh... napacat?  We're still waiting for your insights on Helsinki.  An update on the "major winning," from North Korea would be fun to read as well...  

PH

Ok…I’ll bite and give you my thoughts.  No problem with the Helsinki summit.  Why is it so hard for everyone to separate that we (U.S. and Trump) know that Russia meddled with the 2016 elections (as did others according to the intelligence) and the witch hunt President Trump is referring to is the investigation into him and collusion (which I agree with in case you were wondering).  But is no longer collusion because there was not any.  I may be proven wrong…but doubtful.

None of you know what was said behind closed doors.  But I have no problem with Trump saying at the podium, with Putin next to him, that Putin said very forcefully that Russia was not involved.  And should have left it at that.  His approval ratings keep going up even with the constant negative stories and pure BS.  Pompeo is basically saying the same thing. He has briefed Trump and he is fully aware of what went on.  And formally stated we don't recognize the annexation of Crimea.  Good Enough...a whole lot tougher than Mr. Obama and the pitiful group he surrounded himself with.  

The left is just intolerable of another (and more correct view).  No person can possibly wake up this angry every day like the media and the frenzy they are trying to whip up…but they are mostly being ignored for the fools that they are.  Keep going down the path of socialism and abolish ICE and see where it gets you. 


Oh…and the 1984 comparison was shot down pretty quickly…but that does not stop most of you from salivating at false claims.

 

Cheers…relax and grab a nice bottle.

napacat posted:
purplehaze posted:
wineart 2 posted:

PH, the NJ conman thinks everyone is as gullible as his tribal cult. 

He only plays to and cares about his cult, period. 

I will offer them all vodka shots and bong-hits, in the spirit of conciliation.  Even the couple of friends I have that voted for the dotard are embarrassed and contrite at this point.  I only hope that right-thinking Americans are energized in November.  That's "energised," to you, b-man!  

I predict major interference, sleight of hand and disinformation this fall in an attempt to distract voters from the idiocy that is currently going on.  Stay focused, America.

Oh... napacat?  We're still waiting for your insights on Helsinki.  An update on the "major winning," from North Korea would be fun to read as well...  

PH

Ok…I’ll bite and give you my thoughts.  No problem with the Helsinki summit.  Why is it so hard for everyone to separate that we (U.S. and Trump) know that Russia meddled with the 2016 elections (as did others according to the intelligence) and the witch hunt President Trump is referring to is the investigation into him and collusion (which I agree with in case you were wondering).  But is no longer collusion because there was not any.  I may be proven wrong…but doubtful.

 

Edit for new working link

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-m...?playlist=associated

just watch it.  this show has the cleanest, unedit video of the exact question being asked to Putin and literally listen to what he said.

and before you say "oh maybe translator"

https://www.newsweek.com/does-...glish-kremlin-634048

he's got a pretty near perfect understanding of english and 4 other languages being an ex kgb guy.

This is appalling.  if you can find me proof of otherwise, I'll happily defend what you're saying

but we literally have here Russia saying yes they colluded to help trump win the elections.

That's not a witch hunt, it's a fact.

Also please cite your sources where the 1984 comparisons were misplaced?  As with socialism, what happened to the 12 billion given to farmers?  Sounds pretty damn well like Socialism that you so deride.

And btw, "relax" .. this is appalling behavior and any american should see that.  If you read history, people have always said "Nazi germany would never happen again"  This administration is coming really close.

The Germans sort of fell asleep in the 30's.  We are not asleep now!!  This clown is driving us in a one way train to war, socialism, no freedom of the press, and isolationism. getting close to a totalarian regime.  A firm one man rule, just like his buddies Vlad, Kim, & Xi. 

I think Napacat may be older than one, and assume he has some intelligence, but not displayed too much with above comments.  Maybe he flunked history in kindergarten.  

g-man posted:

Btw napa, where as I have grudgingly sat through things like fox news and breibart before responding, Im a little disappointed you didnt even click on the link in my original post to see the actual video in question before responding.

Gman, I did click on the link and there was no video.  Also, have not read too much about it other than hearing a brief report on the news last night and ready the link to what Sunnylea posted and PH's confirmation.

One thing I have an issue with though, is any comparison to Hitler or to Nazi's pretty much discourages me from taking anyone seriously with anything else they have to say.  

flwino posted:

The Germans sort of fell asleep in the 30's.  We are not asleep now!!  This clown is driving us in a one way train to war, socialism, no freedom of the press, and isolationism. getting close to a totalarian regime.  A firm one man rule, just like his buddies Vlad, Kim, & Xi. 

I think Napacat may be older than one, and assume he has some intelligence, but not displayed too much with above comments.  Maybe he flunked history in kindergarten.  

Flwino...take a breath and relax.  All of the above is a bit extreme.  

napacat posted:
g-man posted:

Btw napa, where as I have grudgingly sat through things like fox news and breibart before responding, Im a little disappointed you didnt even click on the link in my original post to see the actual video in question before responding.

Gman, I did click on the link and there was no video.  Also, have not read too much about it other than hearing a brief report on the news last night and ready the link to what Sunnylea posted and PH's confirmation.

One thing I have an issue with though, is any comparison to Hitler or to Nazi's pretty much discourages me from taking anyone seriously with anything else they have to say.  

Apologies MSNBC did a copy right take down =) 

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-m...?playlist=associated

skip to 1:40.

There's an actual video with the exact question and the response.  

 I didn't say Trump is Hitler and Nazi, but you know what, it's getting close.  I've spent loads of free time reading historical books (and dare i say, I've read Mein Kampf as well) so its a hobby of mine, there are certainly similarities for me to make an informed opinion about it.  If you can prove to me otherwise, I'll stop immediately.

Of all the damage Trump is doing to America and the world in so many different ways, this may be the worst -- trying to create an environment in which it is impossible for people who are not political partisans to know what is true and real and what is not.  God bless those in the American government who are resisting this by continuing to do their jobs: publishing their research on government websites even when it contradicts the lies their political masters are telling.

Surely even Napacat and his silent fellow travellers here can see that this kind of behaviour is a slippery slope towards the apocalyptic vision G-man outlines above?

https://www.washingtonpost.com...litics-pm&wpmm=1

 

 

Read what these radical left Senators have to say about Trump's tariffs and the $12billion just-before-the-midterms bribe he's offering to compensate:

Senator John Thune of South Dakota, the third-ranking Republican in the chamber: “Taxpayers are going to be asked to initial checks to farmers in lieu of having a trade policy that actually opens and expands more markets. There isn’t anything about this that anybody should like.” 

Senator Ron Johnson (R-Wis.): “This is becoming more and more like a Soviet type of economy here: Commissars deciding who’s going to be granted waivers, commissars in the administration figuring out how they’re going to sprinkle around benefits… I’m very exasperated. This is serious.”

Senator Ben Sasse: “This trade war is cutting the legs out from under farmers and White House’s ‘plan’ is to spend $12 billion on gold crutches.”

Senator Rand Paul: ""Tariffs are taxes that punish American consumers and producers. If tariffs punish farmers, the answer is not welfare for farmers — the answer is remove the tariffs.""

Senator Pat Toomey: ""The U.S. Department of Agriculture is trying to put a band-aid on a self-inflicted wound. The administration clobbers farmers with an unnecessary trade war then attempts to assuage them with taxpayer handouts. This bailout compounds bad policy with more bad policy.""

Of course, since these guys are all left-wing Democrats from deep blue states, no reason for Trump or the Republican leadership to listen to them...… ;-)

bman posted:

Of all the damage Trump is doing to America and the world in so many different ways, this may be the worst -- trying to create an environment in which it is impossible for people who are not political partisans to know what is true and real and what is not.  God bless those in the American government who are resisting this by continuing to do their jobs: publishing their research on government websites even when it contradicts the lies their political masters are telling.

Surely even Napacat and his silent fellow travellers here can see that this kind of behaviour is a slippery slope towards the apocalyptic vision G-man outlines above?

https://www.washingtonpost.com...litics-pm&wpmm=1

 

 

They may be able to see it, but their continued selective vision in favor of party over country will not let them speak the truth.  napa, based on your last post, I'm going to disengage with you on the topic of trump.  You have obviously been drinking a good bit of Kool-Aid.  See you in November.  

PH

g-man posted:
napacat posted:
g-man posted:

Btw napa, where as I have grudgingly sat through things like fox news and breibart before responding, Im a little disappointed you didnt even click on the link in my original post to see the actual video in question before responding.

Gman, I did click on the link and there was no video.  Also, have not read too much about it other than hearing a brief report on the news last night and ready the link to what Sunnylea posted and PH's confirmation.

One thing I have an issue with though, is any comparison to Hitler or to Nazi's pretty much discourages me from taking anyone seriously with anything else they have to say.  

Apologies MSNBC did a copy right take down =) 

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-m...?playlist=associated

skip to 1:40.

There's an actual video with the exact question and the response.  

 I didn't say Trump is Hitler and Nazi, but you know what, it's getting close.  I've spent loads of free time reading historical books (and dare i say, I've read Mein Kampf as well) so its a hobby of mine, there are certainly similarities for me to make an informed opinion about it.  If you can prove to me otherwise, I'll stop immediately.

Ok watched the video.  Question... it cuts off after Putin said yes he did, as he wanted to help the US / Russia relations.  Was there more to the answer regarding the directing people to get involved?  One can take that he was replying he wanted Trump to win.  

And I say good for him...who could have wanted Hillary!   

Does Trump want the extinction of a particular group that I am unaware of? 

bman posted:

Read what these radical left Senators have to say about Trump's tariffs and the $12billion just-before-the-midterms bribe he's offering to compensate:

Senator John Thune of South Dakota, the third-ranking Republican in the chamber: “Taxpayers are going to be asked to initial checks to farmers in lieu of having a trade policy that actually opens and expands more markets. There isn’t anything about this that anybody should like.” 

Senator Ron Johnson (R-Wis.): “This is becoming more and more like a Soviet type of economy here: Commissars deciding who’s going to be granted waivers, commissars in the administration figuring out how they’re going to sprinkle around benefits… I’m very exasperated. This is serious.”

Senator Ben Sasse: “This trade war is cutting the legs out from under farmers and White House’s ‘plan’ is to spend $12 billion on gold crutches.”

Senator Rand Paul: ""Tariffs are taxes that punish American consumers and producers. If tariffs punish farmers, the answer is not welfare for farmers — the answer is remove the tariffs.""

Senator Pat Toomey: ""The U.S. Department of Agriculture is trying to put a band-aid on a self-inflicted wound. The administration clobbers farmers with an unnecessary trade war then attempts to assuage them with taxpayer handouts. This bailout compounds bad policy with more bad policy.""

Of course, since these guys are all left-wing Democrats from deep blue states, no reason for Trump or the Republican leadership to listen to them...… ;-)

Good timing...see the news about the EU working towards free trade policies!  

napacat posted:
bman posted:

Read what these radical left Senators have to say about Trump's tariffs and the $12billion just-before-the-midterms bribe he's offering to compensate:

Senator John Thune of South Dakota, the third-ranking Republican in the chamber: “Taxpayers are going to be asked to initial checks to farmers in lieu of having a trade policy that actually opens and expands more markets. There isn’t anything about this that anybody should like.” 

Senator Ron Johnson (R-Wis.): “This is becoming more and more like a Soviet type of economy here: Commissars deciding who’s going to be granted waivers, commissars in the administration figuring out how they’re going to sprinkle around benefits… I’m very exasperated. This is serious.”

Senator Ben Sasse: “This trade war is cutting the legs out from under farmers and White House’s ‘plan’ is to spend $12 billion on gold crutches.”

Senator Rand Paul: ""Tariffs are taxes that punish American consumers and producers. If tariffs punish farmers, the answer is not welfare for farmers — the answer is remove the tariffs.""

Senator Pat Toomey: ""The U.S. Department of Agriculture is trying to put a band-aid on a self-inflicted wound. The administration clobbers farmers with an unnecessary trade war then attempts to assuage them with taxpayer handouts. This bailout compounds bad policy with more bad policy.""

Of course, since these guys are all left-wing Democrats from deep blue states, no reason for Trump or the Republican leadership to listen to them...… ;-)

Good timing...see the news about the EU working towards free trade policies!  

Napa, if you think today's event was anything more than the EU playing Trump in order to keep him from making matters worse, then you probably also believe that North Korea will denuclearize or that Trump didn,t hump Stormy, Karen and who knows how many others! Don't you get that "working towards" is code for "doing nothing but pretending otherwise"?  

napacat posted:
g-man posted:

Apologies MSNBC did a copy right take down =) 

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-m...?playlist=associated

skip to 1:40.

There's an actual video with the exact question and the response.  

 I didn't say Trump is Hitler and Nazi, but you know what, it's getting close.  I've spent loads of free time reading historical books (and dare i say, I've read Mein Kampf as well) so its a hobby of mine, there are certainly similarities for me to make an informed opinion about it.  If you can prove to me otherwise, I'll stop immediately.

Ok watched the video.  Question... it cuts off after Putin said yes he did, as he wanted to help the US / Russia relations.  Was there more to the answer regarding the directing people to get involved?  One can take that he was replying he wanted Trump to win.  

And I say good for him...who could have wanted Hillary!   

Does Trump want the extinction of a particular group that I am unaware of? 

Let's be very clear

The question was

"President Putin, did you want President Tump to win the election, and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?"

Putin - "Yes, I did, Yes, I did. Because he talked about bringing the US-Russia relationship back to normal."

and no, Putin has very clear grasp of the English language.  

I can't help you honestly, I give you video proof of the question and what Putin says in direct response to you saying "show me evidence of collusion".  Also pointed out the whitehouse transcript which still hasn't been corrected. 

Whats the new motto?  Don't believe what you see, unless Trump feeds it to you?

And your last question, "Does Trump want the extinction of a particular group?"  Yes. it's called Free press.  Let's not forget even legal immigrants are being targeted.  

 

bman posted:
napacat posted:

Good timing...see the news about the EU working towards free trade policies!  

Napa, if you think today's event was anything more than the EU playing Trump in order to keep him from making matters worse, then you probably also believe that North Korea will denuclearize or that Trump didn,t hump Stormy, Karen and who knows how many others! Don't you get that "working towards" is code for "doing nothing but pretending otherwise"?  

Overnight and Asian Markets certainly aren't buying it.

Like any promises, big clickbait, lacking any sort of detail.

Sad day when the rest of the world treats our leaders and negotiators as simply good headlines but lacking any substance.

g-man posted:
bman posted:
napacat posted:

Good timing...see the news about the EU working towards free trade policies!  

Napa, if you think today's event was anything more than the EU playing Trump in order to keep him from making matters worse, then you probably also believe that North Korea will denuclearize or that Trump didn,t hump Stormy, Karen and who knows how many others! Don't you get that "working towards" is code for "doing nothing but pretending otherwise"?  

Overnight and Asian Markets certainly aren't buying it.

Like any promises, big clickbait, lacking any sort of detail.

Sad day when the rest of the world treats our leaders and negotiators as simply good headlines but lacking any substance.

Exactly.....  

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...3BgV?ocid=spartanntp

 

g-man posted:
napacat posted:
g-man posted:

Apologies MSNBC did a copy right take down =) 

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-m...?playlist=associated

skip to 1:40.

There's an actual video with the exact question and the response.  

 I didn't say Trump is Hitler and Nazi, but you know what, it's getting close.  I've spent loads of free time reading historical books (and dare i say, I've read Mein Kampf as well) so its a hobby of mine, there are certainly similarities for me to make an informed opinion about it.  If you can prove to me otherwise, I'll stop immediately.

Ok watched the video.  Question... it cuts off after Putin said yes he did, as he wanted to help the US / Russia relations.  Was there more to the answer regarding the directing people to get involved?  One can take that he was replying he wanted Trump to win.  

And I say good for him...who could have wanted Hillary!   

Does Trump want the extinction of a particular group that I am unaware of? 

Let's be very clear

The question was

"President Putin, did you want President Tump to win the election, and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?"

Putin - "Yes, I did, Yes, I did. Because he talked about bringing the US-Russia relationship back to normal."

and no, Putin has very clear grasp of the English language.  

I can't help you honestly, I give you video proof of the question and what Putin says in direct response to you saying "show me evidence of collusion".  Also pointed out the whitehouse transcript which still hasn't been corrected. 

Whats the new motto?  Don't believe what you see, unless Trump feeds it to you?

And your last question, "Does Trump want the extinction of a particular group?"  Yes. it's called Free press.  Let's not forget even legal immigrants are being targeted.  

 

Fair enough... I see your point.   I just don’t have the same hysterical perspective.  I mean he had two to chose from and he chose properly!  I personally think the overly negative press is going to bounce back and not work in the left’s favor.  It’s too much... 92% or more negative%. 

You could take a story from today and say the administration has succeeded in reuniting 1600 families (not sure of the exact number)...instead it reads admin fails to reunite 700 before the deadline.   

Things are going well.  Economy is great.  Getting federal judges appointed and potentially a minimum of two SC justices.  So far so good.  Much better off than where we would be under a HC admin!

 

napacat posted:
g-man posted:

Let's be very clear

The question was

"President Putin, did you want President Tump to win the election, and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?"

Putin - "Yes, I did, Yes, I did. Because he talked about bringing the US-Russia relationship back to normal."

and no, Putin has very clear grasp of the English language.  

I can't help you honestly, I give you video proof of the question and what Putin says in direct response to you saying "show me evidence of collusion".  Also pointed out the whitehouse transcript which still hasn't been corrected. 

Whats the new motto?  Don't believe what you see, unless Trump feeds it to you?

And your last question, "Does Trump want the extinction of a particular group?"  Yes. it's called Free press.  Let's not forget even legal immigrants are being targeted.  

 

Fair enough... I see your point.   I just don’t have the same hysterical perspective.  I mean he had two to chose from and he chose properly!  I personally think the overly negative press is going to bounce back and not work in the left’s favor.  It’s too much... 92% or more negative%. 

You could take a story from today and say the administration has succeeded in reuniting 1600 families (not sure of the exact number)...instead it reads admin fails to reunite 700 before the deadline.   

Things are going well.  Economy is great.  Getting federal judges appointed and potentially a minimum of two SC justices.  So far so good.  Much better off than where we would be under a HC admin!

 

I do, because I happen to be American and I don't like Russia destabilizing our fundamental rights as Americans.  You know, Country before party?

Also, you could take the story today to say instead of reuniting 1600 families to 2300 families unnecessarily separated that we had to go and fix it and still have 700 children without their parents.

As w the economy., look it's my business to study economic numbers, let me throw you out some numbers.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/b...s-weak/#12195be280e0

Forbes is hardly what one would call a "liberal" publication.

But just look at the graph.  The real GDP growth has yet to top what it was in 2015 and still below what is a terrific 2014 where real gdp growth was at 5.2%

Non farm payrolls growth is still 20% below what it was in 2014

Real wage growth was 1.3% in 2014.  It started up in 2017 but has been trending downwards and even started going negative end of 2017 to finally return back to 0% real wage growth.  That means in all of Trumps terms, there has been stagnant real wage growth for all workers.  Not exactly a raving review.

Lets take after tax income, 2014, the average real disposable income was 5.3%.  It's only 1.9% in the past year and a half.

But what about the stock market you say?  It would have been better during obama's second term, well until trump started doing some dumb tweeting and knocked it down to match the growth seen during 2014-2015.

Regardless, I'm of the boat it's stupid to talk about economic policy with folks who don't understand what acutally goes into it.  It's a bad talking point where people just like to throw out numbers and has no idea what it means.  Do you know waht the difference between 5.2% real gdp vs 4.1% gdp looks like?

But you know what you can tangibly understand?  Blowing a 1.5 trillion dollar hole in teh deficit when times are good.  You're suppose to save when times are good, not blow out your savings.  And now trump is telling the Fed they need to keep rates low so credit is easier??? you know there's a popular phrase when I was starting work.  I believe it was called "irrational exuberance".  And now they want to talk about a second round of tax cuts?  Then we're giving away free aid money to people affected by the tariffs?

i'm glad you're happy where you are because I'm certianly not.  This fiscal conservative voter has been through 3 different market crashes and has seen his personal portfolio dip to almost 0 twice.  I can't wait till they get everyone on this individual retirement savings plan, let's get the other 50% of americans who don't understand how to properly invest into the market!

napacat posted:

 

You could take a story from today and say the administration has succeeded in reuniting 1600 families (not sure of the exact number)...instead it reads admin fails to reunite 700 before the deadline.   

You’re fucking joking, right? (Rhetorical)

Wow.

 

bill hike - It's stuff like this that made me decide not to address this particular poster any longer.  The level of spin is just incredible.  The inability to get out of the Faux News manipulated slant on all topics to me is the sign of a closed mind.  

Disastrous tariffs have caused great harm to our farming families, so we throw 12B at the problem.  Tantamount to cutting of someones hand and then handing them a shiny new prosthetic!  So much winning.  

PH

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