@bman posted: Palin was terrible but the real nuttiness came out after the election.
I don't know who didn't see her nuttiness before the election! Also I believe it's commonly accepted at this point that Sarah Palin hurt John McCain's numbers.
@csm posted:Klobuchar should have been the choice IMO. Don’t get Harris at all.
I was a Klobuchar supporter but it's been obvious for for many weeks it was going to be a Black woman.
@The Old Man posted:I was a Klobuchar supporter but it's been obvious for for many weeks it was going to be a Black woman.
It was probably going to be a black woman, granted. All of the reporting was that Duckworth was in the running. There was reporting on Whitmer, too. Klobuchar was out speficially because of her record on policing in Minnesota as a white DA. To be fair, if Harris were white, there's no way she would be on the ticket, too. But that doesn't necessarily mean an Asian (or in Whitmer / Warren's cases, white) woman who didn't have that baggage was automatically going to be excluded. Maybe in the end it was going to be a black woman, but the reporting was that up until the end it wasn't exclusively black women being considered.
@winetarelli posted:It was probably going to be a black woman, granted. All of the reporting was that Duckworth was in the running. There was reporting on Whitmer, too. Klobuchar was out speficially because of her record on policing in Minnesota as a white DA. To be fair, if Harris were white, there's no way she would be on the ticket, too. But that doesn't necessarily mean an Asian (or in Whitmer / Warren's cases, white) woman who didn't have that baggage was automatically going to be excluded. Maybe in the end it was going to be a black woman, but the reporting was that up until the end it wasn't exclusively black women being considered.
Or put another way, or at least obvious to me as I already stated here two weeks ago, after Black Lives Matter, there is no way it was going to be other than a Black woman.
@The Old Man posted:She's a positive because she is a Black woman. (Yes, she is also qualified.) Biden was not solid with the "African American community " as they say. This guarantees all those bBlack moms and their daughters will be making sure to get out to vote. As I've been saying all along there was no way he was not going to pick a Black woman.
As for Gavin Newsom in the future, certainly he'd better than the awful mayor of LA who thought he was going to become the governor, Antonio Villaraigosa or the other mayor waiting in the wings, Eric Garcetti known locally as "Mayor Yoga Pants." But in general I would say fat chance.
I live in a city with a not insignificant black population. Harris is considered more “black adjacent” than truly “black”. She’s half Jamaican and half Indian (south Asian). She’s not viewed as “black” by the African-American community the way Susan Rice, Karen Bass, Val Demings, Stacey Abrams and Keisha Lance Bottoms are. She’s not black like Michelle Obama or Maxine Waters. Heck, she’s not black like even Kanye West.
As for Newsom, he wouldn’t get slotted into the final night’s lineup of speakers if he wasn’t considered a serious contender for the 2024 primaries. He was on the LGBTQ train very early in his political career. CA is as progressive of an entity as you’ll find amongst any of the top economies of the entire world. He initially did a fine job of navigating CA through the early months of the pandemic, and even though we subsequently again trended upwards, it’s not at the levels that FL, TX, AZ, GA and other places are currently suffering. He’s absolutely got the looks and the charisma, which oftentimes are all the casual voter cares about. His warts of banging the wife of his campaign manager and overconsumption of alcohol pale in comparison to Putin’s Bitch’s history. Heck, even the fact Newsom’s ex-wife is nowadays a hot mess of COVID-19 shacking up with Putin’s Bitch’s failson would be considered a positive by a segment of voters.
@ProSys posted:I live in a city with a not insignificant black population. Harris is considered more “black adjacent” than truly “black”. She’s half Jamaican and half Indian (south Asian). She’s not viewed as “black” by the African-American community the way Susan Rice, Karen Bass, Val Demings, Stacey Abrams and Keisha Lance Bottoms are. She’s not black like Michelle Obama or Maxine Waters. Heck, she’s not black like even Kanye West.
It's always good to hear a white man tell a Black woman she's not really a Black woman. It's a little bit like hearing that little putz Ben Shapiro tell Jews they aren't really Jewish if they don't support Trump's Israeli strategy. I am well aware of how she is viewed by African-Americans. However she IS a Black American woman. And I'm thinking it will be enough to spur a large number of Black Americans to go out there and vote for Biden over sitting at home and letting the racist in the White House win.
@The Old Man posted:I was a Klobuchar supporter but it's been obvious for for many weeks it was going to be a Black woman.
Agree with you I just happen to think it was a poor choice if the goal is to win the election. I don’t see what Harris does to move the needle for Biden.
@The Old Man posted:It's always good to hear a white man tell a Black woman she's not really a Black woman. It's a little bit like hearing that little putz Ben Shapiro tell Jews they aren't really Jewish if they don't support Trump's Israeli strategy. I am well aware of how she is viewed by African-Americans. However she IS a Black American woman. And I'm thinking it will be enough to spur a large number of Black Americans to go out there and vote for Biden over sitting at home and letting the racist in the White House when.
It’s never good for an old white man (my presumption since I haven’t met you) to assume that a white man was making the comment about “black adjacent”. I know you’re unaware that I have good friends, clients and industry colleagues who happen to be African-American. Or that I grew up in a neighborhood where black folk were the majority, and white folk were the most represented minority.
To you, she is black. To the black community, it’s a bit more nuanced. I’ll trust their feedback and opinions more than yours every time on this subject.
@csm posted:Agree with you I just happen to think it was a poor choice if the goal is to win the election. I don’t see what Harris does to move the needle for Biden.
As I said there is no question it's going to help with black voters. And Biden was soft in that area. Also she does no harm like Bass in her idiotic comments about Scientology and Fidel Castro.
@The Old Man posted:As for this little bit of foresight I'll gladly bookmark this and remind you in 4 years that I was right.
You were right about what? I’ve stated he will be a real contender for the 2024 primaries. What are you stating?
@ProSys posted:You were right about what? I’ve stated he will be a real contender for the 2024 primaries. What are you stating?
That he won't. What else?
@The Old Man posted:That he won't. What else?
So noted. We shall see in 4 years.
@ProSys posted:It’s never good for an old white man (my presumption since I haven’t met you) to assume that a white man was making the comment about “black adjacent”. I know you’re unaware that I have good friends, clients and industry colleagues who happen to be African-American. Or that I grew up in a neighborhood where black folk were the majority, and white folk were the most represented minority.
To you, she is black. To the black community, it’s a bit more nuanced. I’ll trust their feedback and opinions more than yours every time on this subject.
I'm going out on a limb, with only what you have written here and the demographics of high-end wine drinking in general, that there is a 1% chance you are black. Let me in and let me know if this was right.
"To you, she is black. To the black community, it’s a bit more nuanced."
I find this incredibly offensive. First that now you're speaking for the black community. But more shocking is as a thinking person you don't know that a black person is black no matter what others may think? There's no nuance. Hopefully your friends, whose opinion you take highly, can overcome their separatism and vote for Biden and her instead of Trump and Pence.
@ProSys posted:So noted. We shall see in 4 years.
If the forum is still here.
@The Old Man posted:I'm going out on a limb, with only what you have written here and the demographics of high-end wine drinking in general, that there is a 1% chance you are black. Let me in and let me know if this was right.
"To you, she is black. To the black community, it’s a bit more nuanced."
I find this incredibly offensive. First that now you're speaking for the black community. But more shocking is as a thinking person you don't know that a black person is black no matter what others may think? There's no nuance. Hopefully your friends, whose opinion you take highly, can overcome their separatism and vote for Biden and her instead of Trump and Pence.
This is a relevant Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/owasow/status/1293314215403384832
"multiracial candidates have advantage of building coalitions with voters from other groups, but they are disadvantaged when appealing to co-racials with strong racial identities."
@The Old Man posted:I'm going out on a limb, with only what you have written here and the demographics of high-end wine drinking in general, that there is a 1% chance you are black. Let me in and let me know if this was right.
"To you, she is black. To the black community, it’s a bit more nuanced."
I find this incredibly offensive. First that now you're speaking for the black community. But more shocking is as a thinking person you don't know that a black person is black no matter what others may think? There's no nuance. Are you aware of the history of black racism against black women whose skin was too light? Perhaps you should go back to your friends, whose opinions you take highly, and ask them about the days of Pinky and high yellow. Racism in all its forms stinks. And then ask them are they just too upset about this ersatz black women are going to have to vote for Trump and Pence?
There are more colors in this world than white and black.
I’m well aware that the black community can be as racist as any other. As I stated above, I grew up in a majority black neighborhood. Was definitely on the receiving end of racist incidents on more than a couple handfuls of occasions.
Where you’re really going off the rails here is your perception that Biden needs serious help to get the black vote out to the polls in November, and was “soft in that area”. You fail to realize that black voters are why Biden scored his first few (and obviously much needed) primary wins in South Carolina, Alabama and Arkansas, which propelled him into Super Tuesday with massive momentum. Black Dem primary voters overwhelmingly supported Biden over Sanders, Warren, etc., particularly in the Southern states:
https://www.facingsouth.org/20...-souths-black-voters
This shouldn’t have come as a surprise to anyone. Biden got along extremely well with Obama, and the black community never forgot that. Don’t belittle the black community by assuming that any Dem Presidential candidate could have chosen a black running mate, and such a move would be viewed as genuinely as they view Biden doing so. They would absolutely side eye the likes of Bernie or Buttigieg if those guys had done such a manuever.
Don’t forget as well that Harris, as a DA and AG, was a centrist in her views about crime and policing. You’d be hard pressed to find much in the way of policy reforms that were beneficial to the black communities in San Francisco, or California at large:
https://theappeal.org/kamala-h...er-presidential-run/
Considering that Putin’s Bitch has accomplished nothing on behalf of the black community to improve his meager showing at the 2016 polls with black voters, I’m not sure what place you’re coming from in assuming that Biden desperately needed a black woman on his ticket to keep black voters from staying home this November. In a multitude of ways, he’s nothing like HRC was in 2016 at this juncture.......
@The Old Man posted:As I said there is no question it's going to help with black voters. And Biden was soft in that area. Also she does no harm like Bass in her idiotic comments about Scientology and Fidel Castro.
Was he weak though? Seems to me that his biggest selling feature other than not being Trump is his association with Obama, which to me certainly would help with Black voters.
To answer both I believe that's what the polling shows. Softer than it was for Hillary. For PROSYS I don't believe that the support he got that pushed him upward so quickly from blacks during the primary was necessarily translating into a national trend. Now exactly what about that racial question so I can go to sleep easily tonight?
Interesting. I always thought one of the biggest reasons Hillary lost was that the black voters that came out in droves for Obama mostly stayed home.
NY Times poll in battleground states a couple months ago found only a minority of voters thought race should be the primary consideration in who Biden chose as a running mate:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0...s.html?smid=tw-share
Would like to see whatever polling or evidence that leads The Old Man to “believe” that Biden needs shoring up with the black voting community........
@winetarelli posted:I imagine the next person I vote for in a Presidential primary will probably be Buttigieg or Sherrod Brown, though if Yang got his shit together, learned how to campaign, and spent some time in government, he would get a real look. In the meantime, though, all that really matters is getting the orange dumpster fire out of office and delivering a Democratic Senate so his damage can begin to be undone. 2024 can't really be on our minds right now.
+1
@ProSys posted:NY Times poll in battleground states a couple months ago found only a minority of voters thought race should be the primary consideration in who Biden chose as a running mate:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0...s.html?smid=tw-share
Would like to see whatever polling or evidence that leads The Old Man to “believe” that Biden needs shoring up with the black voting community........
I think you're mixing up what people may say about they think in the abstract, but the actuals don't bear it out.
Now as to where my "believes" comes from:
Joe Biden's advantage over Trump with Black voters is currently smaller than Hillary Clinton's was
Does Biden have a problem with African American voters?
Poll: Biden Lags Hillary’s 2016 Numbers among Young Black Voters
I even included the National Review in there to show that if you do a simple search you can't help but find "polling or evidence" to back up what I said.
@The Old Man posted:I think you're mixing up what people may say about they think in the abstract, but the actuals don't bear it out.
Now as to where my "believes" comes from:
Joe Biden's advantage over Trump with Black voters is currently smaller than Hillary Clinton's was
Does Biden have a problem with African American voters?
Poll: Biden Lags Hillary’s 2016 Numbers among Young Black Voters
I even included the National Review in there to show that if you do a simple search you can't help but find "polling or evidence" to back up what I said.
Considering the dynamics of 2020 election cycle are markedly different than 2016, I don’t read as much into the “enthusiasm gap” for Biden compared to HRC. There’s a fair amount of “out of sight, out of mind” with the pandemic and societal upheaval keeping Biden less in public view compared to HRC at the same juncture in the 2016 cycle, whereas Putin’s Bitch is constantly in traditional and social media (for better and worse).
If Biden really needed to shore up support with young, black voters, they broke more towards Bernie than Kamala during the Dem presidential debates (based on polling). And the ones who skew towards Trump nowadays would likely prefer to vote for Kanye West instead in the few states that will have West on the ballot.
I like the way FiveThirtyEight grades the various polling entities and aggregates their output. Their “emergency” podcast today re: the Harris pick, and their video podcast yesterday, are decently enlightening IMO.
@ProSys posted:Considering the dynamics of 2020 election cycle are markedly different than 2016, I don’t read as much into the “enthusiasm gap” for Biden compared to HRC. There’s a fair amount of “out of sight, out of mind” with the pandemic and societal upheaval keeping Biden less in public view compared to HRC at the same juncture in the 2016 cycle, whereas Putin’s Bitch is constantly in traditional and social media (for better and worse).
If Biden really needed to shore up support with young, black voters, they broke more towards Bernie than Kamala during the Dem presidential debates (based on polling). And the ones who skew towards Trump nowadays would likely prefer to vote for Kanye West instead in the few states that will have West on the ballot.
I like the way FiveThirtyEight grades the various polling entities and aggregates their output. Their “emergency” podcast today re: the Harris pick, and their video podcast yesterday, are decently enlightening IMO.
You ask me for "polling or evidence" and when I give it to you you say, essentially, polling or evidence doesn't matter this year. I see how this works. It took me a moment, but I think I have it now.
@The Old Man posted:You ask me for "polling or evidence" and when I give it to you you say, essentially, polling or evidence doesn't matter this year. I see how this works. It took me a moment, but I think I have it now.
I hope you manage to have a moment of clarity regarding polling. Let’s take a look at the CNN article:
“There have been over 10 national live interview polls since the protests began for which I could assess Black voter sentiment in the presidential race. Altogether, we're looking at well more than 1,000 interviews.”
- 1,000 people isn’t a very substantial sample size for a single poll. It’s even more variable when you’re amalgamating an average of 100 people from 10 different polling groups.
“Biden leads in those polls by an 83% to 8%, or 75-point, margin. That, of course, is a huge advantage for Biden, but it also represents a small improvement for Trump since 2016.
Hillary Clinton was ahead of Trump by a 79-point margin among Black registered voters in the pre-election polls taken right before the 2016 election, as compiled by the New York Times' Nate Cohn. Biden, for what it's worth, is equaling Clinton's 83% in those polls. Trump's picking up a lot of the vote that went to third-party candidates.”
- so not only is the author comparing different junctures of the campaigning cycle, but he’s also comparing different sets of options for voters. Further, what states those who were polled reside in make a substantial difference. A 3rd party voter switching to Trump in CA, NY or MA is meaningless. Put that voter in a swing/battleground state, and that’s far more meaningful.
Where you’re at in the election cycle oftentimes is important. Putin’s Bitch pulled even with, and in a few polls took the lead from, HRC in polling right after the RNC convention. Then HRC retook the lead after the DNC convention.
I’m a firm believer in the mantra of “past results are no guarantee of future performance”. What happened in 2016 occurring again in 2020 is less likely IMO than a different outcome (either overall, or broken down by demographics and states). Come November, we’ll see if that’s the case or not.
Now you don't like the way the statistics were collected. As I already said, I get it, I understand your method. I believe it's called "moving the goalpost." Enough.
@The Old Man posted:Now you don't like the way the statistics were collected. As I already said, I get it, I understand your method. I believe it's called "moving the goalpost." Enough.
Putting your faith in suspect polling samples is basically akin to trusting the collection methods of a Rasmussen Reports or other entities with patently dubious methodologies. But hey, ignorance is bliss for a subset of the global population. Enjoy your bliss!
@ProSys posted:Putting your faith in suspect polling samples is basically akin to trusting the collection methods of a Rasmussen Reports or other entities with patently dubious methodologies. But hey, ignorance is bliss for a subset of the global population. Enjoy your bliss!
Must let you have the last word with a personal attack. You lose.
@The Old Man posted:Must let you have the last word with a personal attack. You lose.
@The Old Man posted:Condescending putz. How's that?
Did I rain on your parade?
Harris has all the experience in elections, state and Federal. A tough cookie. Good age! Would be great AG or SCOTUS. Then we could get Rice in as VP, if Harris moves to Court. Bass has some experience, but not the name recognition. Mike had better get a suit of armor as she will destroy him in a debate
@ProSys posted:Did I rain on your parade?
My better self deleted that. You apparently have none.
@The Old Man posted:My better self deleted that. You apparently have none.
So you want to give yourself credit for posting an insult, then deleting it? After trying to deflect a detailed takedown of the suspect data analysis you hung your hat on, by calling it “moving the goalposts”?
If I didn’t know better, that’s more the “strategy” of a knucklehead MAGAt like Napacat than an informed political observer from either side of the center. I almost envy the blissful world you appear to inhabit.
@ProSys posted:So you want to give yourself credit for posting an insult, then deleting it?
Yes. Good people can take back something and even admit when they're wrong.
After trying to deflect a detailed takedown of the suspect data analysis you hung your hat on, by calling it “moving the goalposts”?
The information I provided (about Biden not doing as well with Blacks as Clinton) is easy to find and research. You self-serving interpretation of your response as a "takedown" belies the truth of the actual data and facts (which you asked for.) Besides your unrepented personal attack your other logical fallacy was indeed "moving the goalpost."
If I didn’t know better, that’s more the “strategy” of a knucklehead MAGAt like Napacat than an informed political observer from either side of the center. I almost envy the blissful world you appear to inhabit.
Another personal attack, what a guy. Now you've lost twice.
Now tell us again how you've lived amongst black people for so many years. ProSys, the great white (I'm going with you're white even though you won't say) spokesman the black race has been looking for.
The last word, no doubt another insult, is yours. Enjoy.
The Trumpublican media, Trump's enablers and sycophants and Trump himself can't seem to figure out their line of attack against Kamala Harris. I feel better about this all the time. But we know Trump has only begun to get into the mud.
They should rename this thread "TOM spouts off." You need a new hobby, amigo.
@jabe11 posted:They should rename this thread "TOM spouts off." You need a new hobby, amigo.
I'm enjoying this one. As I've said I have a very distinctive avatar and it's very easy to skip my posts if you don't wish to read them. As we used to say, "change the channel."
No way man, as Steve Martin said, "how often can you pay 4 bucks to see someone jackoff like this?"
@The Old Man posted:Now tell us again how you've lived amongst black people for so many years. ProSys, the great white (I'm going with you're white even though you won't say) spokesman the black race has been looking for.
The last word, no doubt another insult, is yours. Enjoy.
Are you always this obtuse?
@ProSys posted:There are more colors in this world than white and black.
@jabe11 posted:No way man, as Steve Martin said, "how often can you pay 4 bucks to see someone jackoff like this?"
I saw Steve Martin a year before he came to Saturday Night Live. He had a confidence that said, I'm going to make you laugh and there's nothing you can do about it.
Kamala Harris was tough on crime as a prosecutor. Well, that's what she is supposed to be. And, are there alot of people out there who are in favor of crime.
My friends and clients in the Black community hate crime. They are victims of it in many ways. This will not be a negative for her at all. This is not to say that all Blacks think alike.