flwino posted:The trial in the Senate is already looking bad, keeping it to two weeks, and the GOP and trump allies are setting the rules for a trial.
It was always "looking bad." There is no way it's going to end in anything but an acquittal by the craven Senate Trumpublicans. We all know it. However, the demagogue's actions call for this fruitless exercise to go forward.
wineart 2 posted:DD, the good news is that not all have to be defeated. Trump has already lost the House and the Senate is barely in his favor with a few republicans like Romney, Collins and others not a guaranteed vote. Trump is also upset that the governor of Georgia is picking a senator he doesn’t want and look out for the elections coming in Arizona. All you need is the majority.
Also don’t overlook the two governor’s recently elected as democrats in deep red states of Louisiana and Kentucky.It is also just the president on climate change, Iran nuclear deal, North Korea, tariffs, not believing your own intelligence reports on Russia et al. Hell, even ole Lindsey Graham slapped down Trump today on his insane conspiracy BS and Russia.
While the recent elections have been encouraging, it's still a stretch to think that Dems will take the Senate in Nov 2020. As long as Mitch is the Majority Leader, there isn't a whole lot of legislation getting done. And if there aren't 67 Senate votes to impeach Trump for Ukraine, what will stop him for moving on to the next violation.
doubled posted:wineart 2 posted:DD, the good news is that not all have to be defeated. Trump has already lost the House and the Senate is barely in his favor with a few republicans like Romney, Collins and others not a guaranteed vote. Trump is also upset that the governor of Georgia is picking a senator he doesn’t want and look out for the elections coming in Arizona. All you need is the majority.
Also don’t overlook the two governor’s recently elected as democrats in deep red states of Louisiana and Kentucky.It is also just the president on climate change, Iran nuclear deal, North Korea, tariffs, not believing your own intelligence reports on Russia et al. Hell, even ole Lindsey Graham slapped down Trump today on his insane conspiracy BS and Russia.
While the recent elections have been encouraging, it's still a stretch to think that Dems will take the Senate in Nov 2020. As long as Mitch is the Majority Leader, there isn't a whole lot of legislation getting done. And if there aren't 67 Senate votes to impeach Trump for Ukraine, what will stop him for moving on to the next violation.
2020. Oh, God, please!
wineart 2 posted:America IMO had two dreadful candidates in 2016 and both had ( have) extremely high disapproval numbers. In the 2016 election, 72,519,874 voted against Trump and 62,980,160 voted for Trump. What I struggle with is the fact that even though I do not like Clinton has absolutely nothing to do with holding Trump accountable. Trump is the president and should be held accountable, regardless. Clinton has ZERO to do with Trump and his actions.
That is the problem I see shaping up with 2020. Once again, neither party seems capable of coming up with a candidate that I feel comfortable voting for, rather than against.
Political Third Parties have not gained much traction in the past 100 years or so, but unless things change quickly, I fear for the future of the Republic.
mneeley490 posted:wineart 2 posted:America IMO had two dreadful candidates in 2016 and both had ( have) extremely high disapproval numbers. In the 2016 election, 72,519,874 voted against Trump and 62,980,160 voted for Trump. What I struggle with is the fact that even though I do not like Clinton has absolutely nothing to do with holding Trump accountable. Trump is the president and should be held accountable, regardless. Clinton has ZERO to do with Trump and his actions.
That is the problem I see shaping up with 2020. Once again, neither party seems capable of coming up with a candidate that I feel comfortable voting for, rather than against.
Political Third Parties have not gained much traction in the past 100 years or so, but unless things change quickly, I fear for the future of the Republic.
I too am concerned.
wineart 2 posted:mneeley490 posted:wineart 2 posted:America IMO had two dreadful candidates in 2016 and both had ( have) extremely high disapproval numbers. In the 2016 election, 72,519,874 voted against Trump and 62,980,160 voted for Trump. What I struggle with is the fact that even though I do not like Clinton has absolutely nothing to do with holding Trump accountable. Trump is the president and should be held accountable, regardless. Clinton has ZERO to do with Trump and his actions.
That is the problem I see shaping up with 2020. Once again, neither party seems capable of coming up with a candidate that I feel comfortable voting for, rather than against.
Political Third Parties have not gained much traction in the past 100 years or so, but unless things change quickly, I fear for the future of the Republic.
I too am concerned.
Two things.
1) Given Trump and his enablers, for the sake of the republic, *any* Democrat is better than Trump, and all of Trump’s sycophants (which is virtually every nationally elected Republican) must be voted out. *Then*, we can deal with the policy excesses of the political left.
Anyone who knows me knows that, as a classical liberal in the vein of John Stewart Mill, I, too am concerned about the far Left. I cannot stand the politics of anger and grievance ideologies (something the Right, of course, has perfected with White working class grievances 24/7 on FoxNews). Nor can I stomach the Left anti-science nor anti-debate crowd. (Ahem, political Right.) The curtailing of speech, vigilantism, forced walking on eggshells, absolutist and black and white thinking, and abandonment of principles of due process when inconvenient — all of which are things I once would have associated almost exclusively to the political Right are present now on the Left, and it is scary to me. And the extremist policies (for example, right now the very wealthiest people are actually being taxed *less* than the average American) and isolationist tendencies of certain people on the Left is deeply troubling to me as well. Plus, there is a real problem with rising anti-semetism on the Left. (Did you read what Trump called Jews today? And the Tree of Life synagogue and and...)
I get that there is a lot of trouble on the Left; but Twitter (and unfortunately some elite universities) is not indicative of where most of the Democratic party stands. Virtually 100% of nationally elected Democrats have shown no hint of contempt for the rule of law. Such a basic principle, but one an entire political party is abandoning. And even in the Democratic primary, which has a farther Left leaning than the entirety of people who vote Democrat, Bernie and Warren combined have never hit 40% in the polls and are often more around 30% — and some of Bernie’s draw is from culturally more conservative White working class.
The American Democratic Party is still, in aggregate, a law-abiding, liberal, center-left party. The Republican party has abandoned morality and law-abiding as central tenets of governance. And at its helm is a man who is not only racist (as if that isn’t enough) but is both an imbecile and ignoramous in the truest senses of those words, and who suffers from narcissistic personality disorder.
Right now “a pox on both their houses” is mind-numbingly ignorant. And the only way to right the ship is to vote out Trump and his R supporters. After that, we can focus on the excesses of the far Left. But beyond being less dangerous and less pervasive in the party, that is not the immediate problem we, as a nation face.
2) The UK. After this election, I’m sure we can all agree, we’re all going to have to make sure the Democratic Party does not become the Labour Party. It *isn’t* that. But we have a real need to keep it from becoming that. The fact that despite everything, I wouldn’t be able to vote Labour in the upcoming UK election is gut-wrenching. (Obviously, I would vote LibDem even if I lived in an area where it would got to someone who wouldn’t win, because I wouldn’t be able to vote Tory either and, really, a hung Parliament is the best outcome. Their election process is even stupider than ours.)
winetarelli posted:wineart 2 posted:mneeley490 posted:wineart 2 posted:America IMO had two dreadful candidates in 2016 and both had ( have) extremely high disapproval numbers. In the 2016 election, 72,519,874 voted against Trump and 62,980,160 voted for Trump. What I struggle with is the fact that even though I do not like Clinton has absolutely nothing to do with holding Trump accountable. Trump is the president and should be held accountable, regardless. Clinton has ZERO to do with Trump and his actions.
That is the problem I see shaping up with 2020. Once again, neither party seems capable of coming up with a candidate that I feel comfortable voting for, rather than against.
Political Third Parties have not gained much traction in the past 100 years or so, but unless things change quickly, I fear for the future of the Republic.
I too am concerned.
Two things.
1) Given Trump and his enablers, for the sake of the republic, *any* Democrat is better than Trump, and all of Trump’s sycophants (which is virtually every nationally elected Republican) must be voted out. *Then*, we can deal with the policy excesses of the political left.
Anyone who knows me knows that, as a classical liberal in the vein of John Stewart Mill, I, too am concerned about the far Left. I cannot stand the politics of anger and grievance ideologies (something the Right, of course, has perfected with White working class grievances 24/7 on FoxNews). Nor can I stomach the Left anti-science nor anti-debate crowd. (Ahem, political Right.) The curtailing of speech, vigilantism, forced walking on eggshells, absolutist and black and white thinking, and abandonment of principles of due process when inconvenient — all of which are things I once would have associated almost exclusively to the political Right are present now on the Left, and it is scary to me. And the extremist policies (for example, right now the very wealthiest people are actually being taxed *less* than the average American) and isolationist tendencies of certain people on the Left is deeply troubling to me as well. Plus, there is a real problem with rising anti-semetism on the Left. (Did you read what Trump called Jews today? And the Tree of Life synagogue and and...)
I get that there is a lot of trouble on the Left; but Twitter (and unfortunately some elite universities) is not indicative of where most of the Democratic party stands. Virtually 100% of nationally elected Democrats have shown no hint of contempt for the rule of law. Such a basic principle, but one an entire political party is abandoning. And even in the Democratic primary, which has a farther Left leaning than the entirety of people who vote Democrat, Bernie and Warren combined have never hit 40% in the polls and are often more around 30% — and some of Bernie’s draw is from culturally more conservative White working class.
The American Democratic Party is still, in aggregate, a law-abiding, liberal, center-left party. The Republican party has abandoned morality and law-abiding as central tenets of governance. And at its helm is a man who is not only racist (as if that isn’t enough) but is both an imbecile and ignoramous in the truest senses of those words, and who suffers from narcissistic personality disorder.
Right now “a pox on both their houses” is mind-numbingly ignorant. And the only way to right the ship is to vote out Trump and his R supporters. After that, we can focus on the excesses of the far Left. But beyond being less dangerous and less pervasive in the party, that is not the immediate problem we, as a nation face.
2) The UK. After this election, I’m sure we can all agree, we’re all going to have to make sure the Democratic Party does not become the Labour Party. It *isn’t* that. But we have a real need to keep it from becoming that. The fact that despite everything, I wouldn’t be able to vote Labour in the upcoming UK election is gut-wrenching. (Obviously, I would vote LibDem even if I lived in an area where it would got to someone who wouldn’t win, because I wouldn’t be able to vote Tory either and, really, a hung Parliament is the best outcome. Their election process is even stupider than ours.)
+1 on all points above. Though I'm not as worried as you re the far left tendencies of certain Democrats. I'm confident nothing toooooo far left would be implemented. Yes, is happened with the Republicans but they have been far more morally corrupt than the Dems for a while. And none of the Dem candidates are like Trump.
Trump tweeted or retweeted 85 times over 4 hours this afternoon. But yeah, keep telling me how the guy is so busy working for America. And how he's not mentally unbalanced.....
350 shrinks have already stated that in recent news. I would also include most of the GOP
winetarelli posted:Two things.
1) Given Trump and his enablers, for the sake of the republic, *any* Democrat is better than Trump, and all of Trump’s sycophants (which is virtually every nationally elected Republican) must be voted out. *Then*, we can deal with the policy excesses of the political left.
That is the lone issue that non-Trumpers should ask themselves in 2020. Put aside any differences that you have with a candidate's other positions. If you are waiting for your perfect candidate, guess what will happen?
Lots of Independents, who again will decide the 2020 elections, can't stomach the positions of the either the Far Left or the Far Right.
arsenal4ever posted:Lots of Independents, who again will decide the 2020 elections, can't stomach the positions of the either the Far Left or the Far Right.
True, and that's a good thing. But the far right is in power and the far left is not and will not be in power. So those independents should be voting Dem next year.
arsenal4ever posted:Lots of Independents, who again will decide the 2020 elections, can't stomach the positions of the either the Far Left or the Far Right.
We who don't support the racist, bigoted, sexist, know-nothing, demagogue in Chief have an advantage in that the titular head of our party, Nancy Pelosi, is not a racist a bigot a sexist, know-nothing nor a demagogue. At the least we have a moral advantage.
I hate AT&T.
winetarelli posted:I hate AT&T.
I'm not sure this is random given how many around here hate AT&T as well including yours truly.
The Old Man posted:arsenal4ever posted:Lots of Independents, who again will decide the 2020 elections, can't stomach the positions of the either the Far Left or the Far Right.
We who don't support the racist, bigoted, sexist, know-nothing, demagogue in Chief have an advantage in that the titular head of our party, Nancy Pelosi, is not a racist a bigot a sexist, know-nothing nor a demagogue. At the least we have a moral advantage.
Are kidding me? You stand with this woman Pelosi? Really sad! Oh God. How do you Democrat’s take anyone in your party seriously? They are all clowns!
wineartelli is right to be worried...you guys are extreme and no one likes what they are promoting. Good luck...you’ll need it. Get ready for four more years of fun!
napacat posted:The Old Man posted:arsenal4ever posted:Lots of Independents, who again will decide the 2020 elections, can't stomach the positions of the either the Far Left or the Far Right.
We who don't support the racist, bigoted, sexist, know-nothing, demagogue in Chief have an advantage in that the titular head of our party, Nancy Pelosi, is not a racist a bigot a sexist, know-nothing nor a demagogue. At the least we have a moral advantage.
Are kidding me? You stand with this woman Pelosi? Really sad! Oh God. How do you Democrat’s take anyone in your party seriously? They are all clowns!
wineartelli is right to be worried...you guys are extreme and no one likes what they are promoting. Good luck...you’ll need it. Get ready for four more years of fun!
I’ve really tried to bend over backwards to stay out of the fray. And I’ve even bonded with thistlintom over our mutual appreciation of Jonathan Haidt. But your willingness to read what I wrote and take it so far out of context is emblematic of your, and elected Republicans’ reasoning. The entire basis of my previous post was to acknowledge troubling elements of the political left while continuously pointing out that such elements are meaningless when compared to the moral abyss of the modern Republican party. The false equivalencies, out of context quotes, and asymmetrical standards are all the Republican party has — aside, of course, from a grotesque malignant narcissist who is the laughing stock of the international community.
If John Kasich... or Mitt Romney, or John McCain, or Jeb Bush were President no one would be talking politics on this board. I’d be upset, but we’d all carry on with our days. Even in the W era no-one cared to discuss it on this board. Trump and his accomplices are unique in their malevolence and, thus far and hopefully continued, incompetence.
I know this is pointless with you. But even if you are too far gone to be reached, I hope some can be saved.
Last night my wife and I went to a local diner for dinner. We each ordered a beer and the waiter asked to see our IDs to verify that we were 21 years old. After dinner we went grocery shopping and since it was Tuesday, the store gives a senior citizen discount. We got that without showing an ID card.
Now, granted, some time passed between ordering the beer, eating and going to the grocery store but not that much.
Greta Thunberg Time magazine person of the year.
I was thinking the Hong Kong protesters might be the selection.
Merriam-Webster’s word of the year; ‘ They.’
irwin posted:Last night my wife and I went to a local diner for dinner. We each ordered a beer and the waiter asked to see our IDs to verify that we were 21 years old. After dinner we went grocery shopping and since it was Tuesday, the store gives a senior citizen discount. We got that without showing an ID card.
Now, granted, some time passed between ordering the beer, eating and going to the grocery store but not that much.
Well, I completely understand one of your experiences!🙃
napacat posted:The Old Man posted:arsenal4ever posted:Lots of Independents, who again will decide the 2020 elections, can't stomach the positions of the either the Far Left or the Far Right.
We who don't support the racist, bigoted, sexist, know-nothing, demagogue in Chief have an advantage in that the titular head of our party, Nancy Pelosi, is not a racist a bigot a sexist, know-nothing nor a demagogue. At the least we have a moral advantage.
Are kidding me? You stand with this woman Pelosi? Really sad! Oh God. How do you Democrat’s take anyone in your party seriously? They are all clowns!
wineartelli is right to be worried...you guys are extreme and no one likes what they are promoting. Good luck...you’ll need it. Get ready for four more years of fun!
Nappy, you're reading ability is so obviously flawed. If I have a choice between a racist, bigoted, sexist, know-nothing demagogue (ie your hero) and a person who is fighting against a racist, bigoted , sexist, know-nothing demagogue, I'm going with the latter. I can link dozens and dozens of examples of your hero's racism, bigotry, sexism, know-nothing-ism ( and antisemitism) and demagoguery. I'm pretty sure you'd have a hard time finding any of that with Pelosi. But that's the boy you support. That's the type of person you are.
And here, genius that you are, is what you've got, "They all are clowns!" A hyperbolic ad hominem attack. You sure are smart.
wineart 2 posted:Merriam-Webster’s word of the year; ‘ They.’
I don’t even know where to begin.
All I’ll say is, can we please just pick a word that doesn’t also mean multiple people? I genuinely get confused.
wineart 2 posted:Greta Thunberg Time magazine person of the year.
I was thinking the Hong Kong protesters might be the selection.
The unfortunate reality is that the person with the most impact on the world this year was either Trump or Putin. And it will remain that way until Trump leaves office.
I think Greta is great, but I see no impact. A ’person of the year’ should, in some way, move the needle.
winetarelli posted:wineart 2 posted:Greta Thunberg Time magazine person of the year.
I was thinking the Hong Kong protesters might be the selection.
The unfortunate reality is that the person with the most impact on the world this year was either Trump or Putin. And it will remain that way until Trump leaves office.
I think Greta is great, but I see no impact. A ’person of the year’ should, in some way, move the needle.
We may not see her impact for years, as certainly she is inspiring other young people to become activists.
it's hot tpday
Good golf weather
patespo1 posted:winetarelli posted:wineart 2 posted:Greta Thunberg Time magazine person of the year.
I was thinking the Hong Kong protesters might be the selection.
The unfortunate reality is that the person with the most impact on the world this year was either Trump or Putin. And it will remain that way until Trump leaves office.
I think Greta is great, but I see no impact. A ’person of the year’ should, in some way, move the needle.
We may not see her impact for years, as certainly she is inspiring other young people to become activists.
It's a little premature to see what impact Ms. Thunberg will have. In Oct. 2009, President Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize after about 9 months or so in office. The committee cited some anti-nuclear proliferation things and the President's "reaching out" to the Muslim world. It was in anticipation of hoped for great impact. This is similar.
It would be a good thing if we took climate change, rising oceans, and ever increasingly dramatic and destructive storms more seriously. Will we? We shall see.
MOHS
Wine spectator reports that President Trump is now considering a 100% tariff on all European wines. If someone would just tell him that this might help Nancy Pelosi's constituents in Napa, he might change his mind.
irwin posted:Wine spectator reports that President Trump is now considering a 100% tariff on all European wines. If someone would just tell him that this might help Nancy Pelosi's constituents in Napa, he might change his mind.
Jesus.
In other news, nice to be reminded that we don’t have THE dumbest voting system in the democratized world.
The Old Man posted:
Another eternal question answered at last.
Next up? The Riemann Hypothesis! ;-)
winetarelli posted:In other news, nice to be reminded that we don’t have THE dumbest voting system in the democratized world.
With respect, I believe that you do, given that the primaries empower the most radical voters in each party and so leads to the most radical candidate getting elected, and the whole process costs hundreds of millions of dollars and takes 18 or more months to complete.
And Trump.....
Mayor Pete had a fancy dinner at the Hall-Rutherford Winery this past Sunday. Craig and Kathryn Hall have donated a bunch of money to the Democrats over the years, enough for Ms. Hall to be named by Pres. Clinton ambassador to Austria. (cf. Sundland, who donated $1 million to the Trump inauguration, enough to be named ambassador to the EU).
All of these politicians sell ambassadorships. This is not news.
In any event, Mayor Pete has chosen an excellent winery. Trump doesn't drink wine. I'm with Mayor Pete in this regard.
We may have to drink US wine, if as rumored that the orange man wants a 100% duty on all European wines. Will kill my budget for sure
flwino posted:We may have to drink US wine, if as rumored that the orange man wants a 100% duty on all European wines. Will kill my budget for sure
He's not orange. He has already explained that his unique orange glow is because of high efficiency light bulbs that the government has forced America to use. Damn environmentalists.
The Old Man posted:flwino posted:We may have to drink US wine, if as rumored that the orange man wants a 100% duty on all European wines. Will kill my budget for sure
He's not orange. He has already explained that his unique orange glow is because of high efficiency light bulbs that the government has forced America to use. Damn environmentalists.
And don't get me started on all that needless toilet flushing.
flwino posted:We may have to drink US wine, if as rumored that the orange man wants a 100% duty on all European wines. Will kill my budget for sure
I was just reading about that. The part of the article that made my eyes go wide was about consumers being shielded from the previous 25% increase in tariffs because vintners and importers swallowed it.
Better margins than I thought in imported wine.
flwino posted:We may have to drink US wine, if as rumored that the orange man wants a 100% duty on all European wines. Will kill my budget for sure
I can now justify to my wife all of the wine in our cellar, I was just planning years ahead of the 100% duty!
patespo1 posted:flwino posted:We may have to drink US wine, if as rumored that the orange man wants a 100% duty on all European wines. Will kill my budget for sure
I can now justify to my wife all of the wine in our cellar, I was just planning years ahead of the 100% duty!
Touché. With a cellar deep in French, Italian and Spanish I am not worried and this idiot will be out of office long before I could ever ‘need’ any wine!
