billhike posted:
 

I’m happy to say it - I fucking HATE 45.

I had a conversation about hate, more specifically using the word "hate,"  with my youngest daughter and my eldest granddaughter on the roof of their home in DC a few weeks back.  Don't get me wrong, it was a celebratory day with no hatred in the air, other than what might have been wafting from the big white house 7 blocks away from where we were.   Fortunately the wind was blowing to the east at the time...  

We were discussing the current political situation, and I mentioned to my girls that, as much as I was reluctant to use the word, that I truly hated 45.  Not only the things he had done, but what he was continuing to do to our nation.

I saw a flinch on the face of my granddaughter, and asked her what was up.  She said (paraphrasing here) "Mom says I shouldn't use that word unless I am prepared to explain such a strong feeling."  My daughter chimed in, and we all agreed that expressions of hatred should be very carefully doled out. We all agreed that in the case of 45, it was a reasonable emotion for those who cared about our fellow citizens, those who dreamed of becoming our citizens and the millions of people who have looked to the USA as an inspiration for free thought, good governance and the rule of law.  So, yeah...

I fucking hate him too.  

PH

 

thistlintom posted:

Put some words to your emojis please, Tom.  I've always seen you as an intelligent and relatively thoughtful fellow, even though we are on different political spectrums.  I'd value a cogent explanation and justification of the current events coming from our chief executive.  Thanks!

PH

PH, you obviously did a great job raising your daughter, and based on the exchange described above she is passing that on.

Agree on use of the word, but I’m very comfortable with it in this situation. Some will lazily assume that means something about my political leanings or ideology. Oh well.

billhike posted:

PH, you obviously did a great job raising your daughter, and based on the exchange described above she is passing that on.

Agree on use of the word, but I’m very comfortable with it in this situation. Some will lazily assume that means something about my political leanings or ideology. Oh well.

Agree on the first count. An A+ for parenting. 

Not sure re the second. It's not a word I use for anything but certain vegetables, winter, bugs, and wines under $20. 

First, I emailed Board-O and he said that he hasn't posted since around March due to his opinion that the boards are "dead" and due to a brouhaha with Rbt. Taylor.  He thought it was funny that someone thought he was posting under an alias to an alias.

And I can tell you that Board-O would  not eat curried goat with Shiraz and post about it.  Zero chance.

Not sure how many people are on the forums these days, or how many lurk. But it is not shocking that there are one or two or three, or maybe even more Trump supporters here.  We are a diverse country. There are people in our country who like NASCAR, and there are people who have never seen it. There are people who like ballet, and people who've never been.  I suppose there are people who like both NASCAR and ballet, and watch NASCAR on TV while listening to ballet music on their headphones.

In Maryland, the President has about a 24% approval rating, according to the most recent poll I saw.  That's pretty low, but it means, I think, that around 1 in 4 people like the guy.  I might question those folks, but they are entitled to their opinion. 

Me personally? I'm pretty much with PH on this, except I don't use the word "hate"..I'm with his daughter and grandchild on this.  I hate many of his policies.....I think running up the deficit to record amounts is terrible policy.  (As big of a jerk and criminal Bill Clinton was, he helped the US economy by enacting welfare reform and cutting the deficit substantially).  I think eliminating environmental regulation is a bad idea, particularly for people like PH's grandchild, who will have to live with the climate change consequences for many years to come more than I.  His embrace of N. Korea and Russia, together with his rejection of friendship with traditional allies is misguided and reflects little understanding of global politics.  The tariffs have been quite harmful to our economy.  Some taxpayers have benefited from the tax relief law, and now they are paying what they saved by virtue of that legislation in the form of higher consumer costs due to tariffs.  Thinking that imposing a tariff on foreign goods is going to make textile companies move to the US to make shirts again? Wharton should revoke his degree.  Let's get real.

Even many Republicans agree that it is not proper for a US President to reach out to foreign governments to get assistance to attack a political rival.  (Suppose they comply and it works? Do you owe the foreign government something in return?)  But the President fails to recognize that this should not have been done.  He has no remorse..  This means that he may do it again.

The next president will have a great deal of repair work to do.

The President has demonstrated that he is about as compassionate as a concrete cinder block. Every President since Kennedy had Casals over to the White House to perform has demonstrated an interest in art and music, save for the current President.  And, of course, Pres. Trump is the first President in awhile not to have a dog (unless you count Giuliani).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

purplehaze posted:

Also, his last post mentioning curry was over 7 years ago.  Somehow, based on my recollections of his taste in food and wine, goat curry and Shiraz aren't coming up as high-probability.  

PH

If he had said Ribeye and Salad, with one of his many well-aged Bordeaux, I would be more inclined to agree with Bomba. 

According to Trump, he had been withholding money to Ukraine because of concerns of corruption and inappropriate dealings within the Ukrainian government.  Anyone that has followed their actions would have to agree this is a concern.  It should be noted that the government did not know of the withholding of aid until a month after the conversation with the Ukrainian president.

During the phone conversation in question, Trump raised the issue of corruption and asked as a favor for the Ukrainian president to look into it, which he agreed to do.  After that, Trump then brought up the issue of Biden's son's involvement in Burisma and investigations into that company.  He noted that there had been reports about Hunter's involvement and Biden's withholding of $1B of aid to Ukraine unless a prosecutor was fired.  The Ukrainian president agreed to look into that also.

The US has an agreement with Ukraine regarding the provision of information regarding investigations of wrongdoing by citizens of each country.  If Ukraine has information of wrongdoing by a US official, they are obligated to provide that to the US.  The prosecutor that was fired by Ukraine has signed an affidavit that he was fired because he was looking into the issue of Hunter's involvement with Burisma.

One must agree that Hunter's being hired by Burisma looks very suspicious. I contend he was hired because his last name was Biden and they expected benefits from that. On top of that having Joe Biden withholding aid if a prosecutor involved in investigating Burisma makes things appear suspicious.  That Trump requested the Ukrainian president look into the matter is not illegal.

I do agree that Trump asking the President of Ukraine to look into this matter is not wise and is inappropriate due to Biden running for President.  But this does not raise to the level that should require impeachment proceedings.  That the Democrats have continually mischaracterized the conversation and actions taken regarding the conversation shows that they feel the situation for impeachment is weak.  Adam Schiff rephrasing the conversation during a hearing to make it sound much worse than it was  is deceitful and disgusting.

An impeachment of a president is very serious and can be very damaging to the country.  It should involve something much more than what Trump requested of the Ukrainian president.  If Pelosi is really serious about having an impeachment investigation on Trump, then she should have a house vote on it.  That is what has been done historically and should be done now.  By not having a vote, it appears that she is using this investigation in order to damage Trump politically without putting her own party on the line by committing to a vote.

 

As a note, I avoid having political conversations on boards and Facebook as I have friends on both sides of the aisle and I don't want to create issues with them.  There are too many political postings as it is on social media.  I do not mind having one to one conversations regarding politics if I feel that it can be a civil conversation.  As I was asked politely on my views on this current topic, I provided some thoughts.  Generally, I do not comment much on this thread as it seems pointless as most of the posts are rants and not discussions.

thistlintom posted:

According to Trump, he had been withholding money to Ukraine because of concerns of corruption and inappropriate dealings within the Ukrainian government.  Anyone that has followed their actions would have to agree this is a concern.  It should be noted that the government did not know of the withholding of aid until a month after the conversation with the Ukrainian president.

The problem with this take is that the Pentagon had already cleared the aid to be provided to the Ukraine two months prior:

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/25...-ukraine-over-corrup

patespo1 posted:
purplehaze posted:

Also, his last post mentioning curry was over 7 years ago.  Somehow, based on my recollections of his taste in food and wine, goat curry and Shiraz aren't coming up as high-probability.  

PH

If he had said Ribeye and Salad, with one of his many well-aged Bordeaux, I would be more inclined to agree with Bomba. 

“With a red to be determined”

purplehaze posted:

Couldn't find the bet specifics on their site.  Do they mean; will articles of impeachment be filed, or will he be convicted in the Senate?  Big difference.

PH

I couldn't find it either.  Perhaps it's not rolled out yet given that the impeachment proceedings are only a few days old.

thistlintom posted:

 The prosecutor that was fired by Ukraine has signed an affidavit that he was fired because he was looking into the issue of Hunter's involvement with Burisma.

having Joe Biden withholding aid if a prosecutor involved in investigating Burisma makes things appear suspicious.  

 

 

I very much appreciate your calm, rational review of the facts as you see them, tom, but I have an issue with the lack of context you provided in the comments above, though perhaps you were unaware of that context.

In the first example above, the prosecutor in question was considered to be corrupt by every or almost every (I haven't checked each one) EU and other Western nation.  They had been calling for him to be fired for months or perhaps years because he was providing cover for the previous President and his cronies, as I understand it.  If he signed that affidavit it is irrelevant as his credibility is zero.  Biden was merely one of dozens of leaders calling for his removal.

Re your second point, in addition to the point above, I'm not sure a VP has the power to withhold aid to another country, especially once Congress has approved that aid.  Trump, on the other hand, had that power and used it for no apparent public policy reason.

If any of my facts above are incorrect, please let me know.  And again, thanks for making a positive contribution to the discussion.  It's always more fun to have discussions on matters on which I'm passionate when someone taking the other side or at least taking a view not 100% aligned with mine is participating! 

 

irwin posted:

First, I emailed Board-O and he said that he hasn't posted since around March due to his opinion that the boards are "dead" and due to a brouhaha with Rbt. Taylor.  He thought it was funny that someone thought he was posting under an alias to an alias.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, he has posted since March, he attacked me in a post on this thread on August 5 but deleted it shortly afterwards.  But his post appeared in a notification in my inbox so I saw it.  

thistlintom posted:

According to Trump, he had been withholding money to Ukraine because of concerns of corruption and inappropriate dealings within the Ukrainian government. 

 

Your kidding right? This is not satire? You're actually are trying to have us buy into, and swallow, this nonsense that the former Republican party is shoveling? The demagogue in chief rooting out corruption? Ha ha. He let Stormy Daniels suck his dick because he was investigating the tragic life of porn stars and he was doing research. He also sexually harassed, and assaulted, 15 to 20 women to get to the bottom of the harm of male chauvinism. What a knight in shining armor! No wonder you admire him so.

bman posted:
thistlintom posted:

 The prosecutor that was fired by Ukraine has signed an affidavit that he was fired because he was looking into the issue of Hunter's involvement with Burisma.

having Joe Biden withholding aid if a prosecutor involved in investigating Burisma makes things appear suspicious.  

 

 

I very much appreciate your calm, rational review of the facts as you see them, tom, but I have an issue with the lack of context you provided in the comments above, though perhaps you were unaware of that context.

In the first example above, the prosecutor in question was considered to be corrupt by every or almost every (I haven't checked each one) EU and other Western nation.  They had been calling for him to be fired for months or perhaps years because he was providing cover for the previous President and his cronies, as I understand it.  If he signed that affidavit it is irrelevant as his credibility is zero.  Biden was merely one of dozens of leaders calling for his removal.

Re your second point, in addition to the point above, I'm not sure a VP has the power to withhold aid to another country, especially once Congress has approved that aid.  Trump, on the other hand, had that power and used it for no apparent public policy reason.

If any of my facts above are incorrect, please let me know.  And again, thanks for making a positive contribution to the discussion.  It's always more fun to have discussions on matters on which I'm passionate when someone taking the other side or at least taking a view not 100% aligned with mine is participating! 

 

I agree that there is a strong question with the integrity of the prosecutor.  However, the issue regarding the investigation into Burisma is not totally clear and was reported by the public news.  And it is probably enough for Trump to have an issue with, whether it is truly valid or not.

Whether Biden had the authority, he told the president he would withdraw the aid if the prosecutor wasn't fired before he left that day.  I doubt the Ukrainians thought his threat was invalid. Given that Biden threatened aid, he was more than just one of group of leaders calling for his dismissal. 

Thanks for your calm response.

The Old Man posted:
thistlintom posted:

According to Trump, he had been withholding money to Ukraine because of concerns of corruption and inappropriate dealings within the Ukrainian government. 

 

Your kidding right? This is not satire? You're actually are trying to have us buy into, and swallow, this nonsense that the former Republican party is shoveling? The demagogue in chief rooting out corruption? Ha ha. He let Stormy Daniels suck his dick because he was investigating the tragic life of porn stars and he was doing research. He also sexually harassed, and assaulted, 15 to 20 women to get to the bottom of the harm of male chauvinism. What a knight in shining armor! No wonder you admire him so.

Thanks for confirming my reason for not posting political issues.

Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts down, thistlintom.  Although I disagree with much of your post, at least it was calmly stated.  Many of us fall victim to preconceived notions or information we've read/heard that is skewed or downright incorrect.

bman's statement on the former Ukrainian prosecutor is correct.  Biden was one of many Western government representatives calling for his ouster, specifically because he was stonewalling corruption prosecutions.

We will have to agree to disagree on your interpretation of trump's request that Zelensky look into Biden and Biden's son as "not wise and inappropriate."  He flat out asked the president of another country to dig up dirt on his chief political rival.  If such "dirt" existed and was conveyed to the president, it would certainly be a "thing of value" related to a Federal election.  It's not unwise or inappropriate.  It's illegal.  

That said, we have some of the preeminent law enforcement groups in the world right here in the good old USA.  If anyone has cause to believe that either Biden committed some wrongdoing in, or related to Ukraine, the investigation should be US based, with US law enforcement requesting assistance from the Ukraine government.  Certainly not his private "attorney," and most definitely not the Attorney General of the United States.

I will agree with you that Hunter Biden's relationship with Burisma, given his relative lack of experience and knowledge, is a very bad look.  Criminal?  Can't say, but again we have law enforcement people right here who can look into it with Ukrainian assistance if needed.  That said, the Ukrainians have repeatedly said that there was zero evidence that either Biden had committed any possible violation of Ukrainian law.

Finally.  Impeachment.  I was not for it, right until the Zelensky phone call was released.  It was the final straw for the Dems, and for them not to act would have been a de facto go-ahead to trump to continue asking foreign nations to interfere in our internal affairs and elections.  

PH

 

billhike posted:

PH, you obviously did a great job raising your daughter, and based on the exchange described above she is passing that on.

Agree on use of the word, but I’m very comfortable with it in this situation. Some will lazily assume that means something about my political leanings or ideology. Oh well.

Total accident.  My parenting skills suck.  Too old school for these days...

PH

thistlintom posted:
The Old Man posted:
thistlintom posted:

According to Trump, he had been withholding money to Ukraine because of concerns of corruption and inappropriate dealings within the Ukrainian government. 

 

Your kidding right? This is not satire? You're actually are trying to have us buy into, and swallow, this nonsense that the former Republican party is shoveling? The demagogue in chief rooting out corruption? Ha ha. He let Stormy Daniels suck his dick because he was investigating the tragic life of porn stars and he was doing research. He also sexually harassed, and assaulted, 15 to 20 women to get to the bottom of the harm of male chauvinism. What a knight in shining armor! No wonder you admire him so.

Thanks for confirming my reason for not posting political issues.

If you think you're not going to get called out for defending the racist, bigot, sexist, anti-American, demagogue that occupies the WH you're right. You will.

With Nixon there was a cancer on the presidency. With Trump there is a cancer to our democracy in the White House.

bman posted:
irwin posted:

First, I emailed Board-O and he said that he hasn't posted since around March due to his opinion that the boards are "dead" and due to a brouhaha with Rbt. Taylor.  He thought it was funny that someone thought he was posting under an alias to an alias.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, he has posted since March, he attacked me in a post on this thread on August 5 but deleted it shortly afterwards.  But his post appeared in a notification in my inbox so I saw it.  

Yup they can deny but it won't change the truth. He's lying to himself as much as to them

bomba503 posted:
bman posted:
irwin posted:

First, I emailed Board-O and he said that he hasn't posted since around March due to his opinion that the boards are "dead" and due to a brouhaha with Rbt. Taylor.  He thought it was funny that someone thought he was posting under an alias to an alias.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, he has posted since March, he attacked me in a post on this thread on August 5 but deleted it shortly afterwards.  But his post appeared in a notification in my inbox so I saw it.  

Yup they can deny but it won't change the truth. He's lying to himself as much as to them

likewise, I was also attacked, I saw in that in the notifications

flwino posted:
bomba503 posted:
bman posted:
irwin posted:

First, I emailed Board-O and he said that he hasn't posted since around March due to his opinion that the boards are "dead" and due to a brouhaha with Rbt. Taylor.  He thought it was funny that someone thought he was posting under an alias to an alias.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, he has posted since March, he attacked me in a post on this thread on August 5 but deleted it shortly afterwards.  But his post appeared in a notification in my inbox so I saw it.  

Yup they can deny but it won't change the truth. He's lying to himself as much as to them

likewise, I was also attacked, I saw in that in the notifications

A wine ninja!  

billhike posted:

Please, no.

The question is, if elected President, would she implement some of the out-there stuff she is proposing to win the nomination or is she saying that just to win the nomination?  Trump has actually done most of what he promised, and worse, but given the primary system which pretty much requires candidates for the nomination to appeal to the far left and right of their respective parties, most successful candidate are much more moderate in what they actually do.  

If Biden and Bernie were both to fade after the first primaries and Klobuchar was still around, I bet she'd have a shot, ditto Harris and Booker, though the latter two seem to be trying to out-promise Warren when it comes to questionable policies.

Maybe the Bernie illness (age 78) and the ages of the other candidates who are 70+ (Biden, Warren & Trump) will cause voters to be concerned about electing a person of that age to this stressful office.  Maybe.

In Maryland, the Constitution says that judges ( at all levels) must retire at age 70. This is the so called "age of constitutional senility".  Well, being a judge is certainly mentally taxing, but not all that demanding physically.  Being President is pretty demanding physically and mentally.

irwin posted:

Maybe the Bernie illness (age 78) and the ages of the other candidates who are 70+ (Biden, Warren & Trump) will cause voters to be concerned about electing a person of that age to this stressful office.  Maybe.

In Maryland, the Constitution says that judges ( at all levels) must retire at age 70. This is the so called "age of constitutional senility".  Well, being a judge is certainly mentally taxing, but not all that demanding physically.  Being President is pretty demanding physically and mentally.

Trump is over 70!!!   About the same as his IQ. 

irwin posted:

Maybe the Bernie illness (age 78) and the ages of the other candidates who are 70+ (Biden, Warren & Trump) will cause voters to be concerned about electing a person of that age to this stressful office.  Maybe.

I hear you, irwin.  Of all the geezers out there, I think Warren is the healthiest and most mentally acute.  Unfortunately, she's just more than a wee bit left of me and most of America.  I think that if Biden is seriously injured by the latest news, and if Bernie is out (I think he is done, either out by a personal decision or public concern at this point) that the remaining Dems will be quickly whittled down to Warren, Harris and Buttigieg.  I'd vote for any of them when the time comes. Hell, I'd vote for you in a heartbeat before casting a vote for any R in 2020.  

PH

The Old Man posted:

I guess I'm not understanding why the lies being told, about Biden, by the p-grabber in chief and his enablers and sycophants have any significance.

Unfortunately, it's because the "average" American voter won't take the time to drill down below the headlines to investigate the truth.  This actually is one reason why we have an idiot in our White House now.

PH

Besides his other crimes against all that is decent and good, The Orange Menace is now tweeting clips from Nickelback music videos (full disclosure:  I like some Nickelback tunes, and not just because we're both Canadian!). 

And of course the point he seems to be trying to make is not made, it just sows more confusion, which is probably actually his point

(not sure this link is gonna work)

He watches Nickelback videos??!!

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