Have g-man posted:
napacat posted:
g-man posted:
napacat posted:
g-man posted:
napacat posted:
thistlintom posted:

I think you are missing the full context of the report. The block by McConnell was for a full unredacted immediate release of the report.  That cannot be done for legal reasons, so the report must be reviewed and some parts must be redacted.  

Exactly...don't they just love to not report the full story.  McConnell is blocking the immediate release of the full report until it has been reviewed and determined what can be released within the confines of the law.  Nice try MNeeley and Bman....cut and paste the entire article.    And he just blocked the attempt again.  Good for him.  Oh...and NBC news is BS.  

So, non security cleared individuals in the trump administration get to see these "highly sensitive" documents, but the public doesnt?  Smells like bullshit.  I didn't realize America has become a communist country where the government decides what's best for the public to see.

Do facts escape you?  After the Clinton appointment of an Independent Counsel, congress changed the rules to no longer have an independent counsel, but rather a Special Counsel...who would return their report / findings to the Attorney General.  From there, the AG will report to Congress the Special Counsel's findings and determine what can be made public according to Law.    Do you really think the AG is going to lie about what was in the Mueller report...your like Adam Schiff and cannot seem to let it go.  No Collusion in this made up story.

what a wild leap of assumptions.  None of what you say applies to my statement at all.  Typical thought process today, just read the clickbait header, no need to see the details.

 

and Bandol rose > US roses

Who are you referring to as non-security cleared? Cannot be the AG and Deputy AG? As far as I know....those are the only two that have seen it thus far.  Can you not just wait!  Don’t you think Mueller would have loved to nail Trump if there was the smallest bit of collusion?  It’s over...and you should get over it.  So far Trump has done an outstanding job compared to the previous Pres...Obama.  By Far!!! 

you make some terrible assumptions on what other people think and believe.  some of your assumptions are just straight up insulting.  I'll leave you to your own world as you've clearly already thought about how everyone else on this forum should think.

 

and Bandol > SQN rose > Cayuse Rose 

Don’t have to make assumptions...just read what people here write.  I am curious though as to who you were referring to as non-security cleared?  As mentioned, only two people have read it...and the Trump admin is not being granted an early preview prior to Barr releasing.

I didn't say someone else has read it, I noted that non security cleared individuals like the President's personal lawyer Rudy Guilliiani, who isn't security cleared would be able to read it and as noted by Rudy, "prepare a counter report" and redact parts of it as based upon Rudy's own words.  I've taken no other source except transcripts of what Rudy himself has said.

where did you get that the trump admin is not being granted an early preview prior to barr releasing?  

g-man posted:

I didn't say someone else has read it, I noted that non security cleared individuals like the President's personal lawyer Rudy Guilliiani, who isn't security cleared would be able to read it and as noted by Rudy, "prepare a counter report" and redact parts of it as based upon Rudy's own words.  I've taken no other source except transcripts of what Rudy himself has said.

where did you get that the trump admin is not being granted an early preview prior to barr releasing?  

It has been reported (NBC news) that Barr will not release the redacted version of the report to the White house prior to releasing to congress / public.  After it is released, I would have no problem with Trump's lawyers providing their version.

Napacat is right.  I have read from several sources that Barr is working with Mueller on redactions to the report before releasing it to Congress and the White House.  So Guiliani would not see it before Trump or Congress.

Interesting, Dershowitz argues that Trump and his legal group should be able to see the report and issue their own findings in concert with the release of the Mueller report to Congress.  His argument is that the Mueller report is a prosecutor's report and the defense should be able to provide a response at the same time.  But Barr has decided against that and will release the Mueller report by itself.

thistlintom posted:

Napacat is right.  I have read from several sources that Barr is working with Mueller on redactions to the report before releasing it to Congress and the White House.  So Guiliani would not see it before Trump or Congress.

Interesting, Dershowitz argues that Trump and his legal group should be able to see the report and issue their own findings in concert with the release of the Mueller report to Congress.  His argument is that the Mueller report is a prosecutor's report and the defense should be able to provide a response at the same time.  But Barr has decided against that and will release the Mueller report by itself.

I'm alright with them releasing their own spin after it is released to Congress. Especially as Trump will probably find himself a defendant at some point. However, what I do not want to see is Barr pull another "Nunes"; racing to the WH in the dead of night to spoonfeed them the report before anyone else has a chance to see it.

mneeley490 posted:
thistlintom posted:

Napacat is right.  I have read from several sources that Barr is working with Mueller on redactions to the report before releasing it to Congress and the White House.  So Guiliani would not see it before Trump or Congress.

Interesting, Dershowitz argues that Trump and his legal group should be able to see the report and issue their own findings in concert with the release of the Mueller report to Congress.  His argument is that the Mueller report is a prosecutor's report and the defense should be able to provide a response at the same time.  But Barr has decided against that and will release the Mueller report by itself.

I'm alright with them releasing their own spin after it is released to Congress. Especially as Trump will probably find himself a defendant at some point. However, what I do not want to see is Barr pull another "Nunes"; racing to the WH in the dead of night to spoonfeed them the report before anyone else has a chance to see it.

Wow...you’re something else.  Notice how Schiff is stating to release the full unredacted version of the report ( even though that would be illegal) and yet when the Nunez report was completed and he wanted to release it to the public (unredacted)...Schiff and Pelosi said that could not be done and had to protect sources and they would end up jeopardizing National security.  Hypocrites.  How can these people even be remotely taken seriously?  How could anyone vote for a democrat.  It just strains common sense.

The Old Man posted:
napacat post:  How could anyone vote for a democrat.  It just strains common sense.

How could anyone, of any party, vote for a bigoted racist sexist know-nothing demagogue of a president like the pussy-grabber in chief? It strains common decency.

You're kidding. Do you happen to recall what the other choice was?  I have never seen a more anti-american group than the present Democrats.  Just disgusting.  They care zero for what they espouse...just try to build a dependent voter base.

Napa, speaking of hypocrites.....

"If I win I may never see my property -- I may never see these places again," Trump said at an August 2016 campaign event. "But because I'm going to be working for you, I'm not going to have time to go golfing, believe me. Believe me. Believe me, folks."

Days Trump has spent at Mar a Lago:

87

Cost of flights to Mar a Lago (23 so far):*

~$45,232,000

Days Trump has spent at Bedminster:

58

Cost of flights to Bedminster (19 so far):*

~$14,392,000

Trump has visited his clubs once every this many days since his inauguration:

4.9

Projected visits to golf clubs in four years:

297

Projected visits in eight years:

593

Total times Obama played golf during his eight year Presidency:

306

bman posted:

Napa, speaking of hypocrites.....

"If I win I may never see my property -- I may never see these places again," Trump said at an August 2016 campaign event. "But because I'm going to be working for you, I'm not going to have time to go golfing, believe me. Believe me. Believe me, folks."

Days Trump has spent at Mar a Lago:

87

Cost of flights to Mar a Lago (23 so far):*

~$45,232,000

Days Trump has spent at Bedminster:

58

Cost of flights to Bedminster (19 so far):*

~$14,392,000

Trump has visited his clubs once every this many days since his inauguration:

4.9

Projected visits to golf clubs in four years:

297

Projected visits in eight years:

593

Total times Obama played golf during his eight year Presidency:

306

Agree...that is out of line in my opinion.

napacat posted:
The Old Man posted:
napacat post:  How could anyone vote for a democrat.  It just strains common sense.

How could anyone, of any party, vote for a bigoted racist sexist know-nothing demagogue of a president like the pussy-grabber in chief? It strains common decency.

You're kidding. Do you happen to recall what the other choice was?  I have never seen a more anti-american group than the present Democrats.  Just disgusting.  They care zero for what they espouse...just try to build a dependent voter base.

So you don't want to address your hero's racism, bigotry, sexism, lack of knowledge of basic facts, nor his self-confessed pussy grabbing? I left out his record-breaking daily lies, his admiration of dictators, and his support for white nationalists. But...but...Hillary. That's the best you've got? Pathetic.

The Old Man posted:
napacat posted:
The Old Man posted:
napacat post:  How could anyone vote for a democrat.  It just strains common sense.

How could anyone, of any party, vote for a bigoted racist sexist know-nothing demagogue of a president like the pussy-grabber in chief? It strains common decency.

You're kidding. Do you happen to recall what the other choice was?  I have never seen a more anti-american group than the present Democrats.  Just disgusting.  They care zero for what they espouse...just try to build a dependent voter base.

So you don't want to address your hero's racism, bigotry, sexism, lack of knowledge of basic facts, nor his self-confessed pussy grabbing? I left out his record-breaking daily lies, his admiration of dictators, and his support for white nationalists. But...but...Hillary. That's the best you've got? Pathetic.

+1

I would add that now that it's known that Trump overruled 25 proper and correct (according to long-standing procedures) decisions to refuse high-level security clearances to his family and cronies, many of whom apparently went on to use private cell phones to send classified messages, and all while he and his Trumpanzees continue to chant "lock her up" because Hillary used a private server for some messages, the level of hypocrisy has reached epic levels, even for him!

The Old Man posted:
napacat posted:
The Old Man posted:
napacat post:  How could anyone vote for a democrat.  It just strains common sense.

How could anyone, of any party, vote for a bigoted racist sexist know-nothing demagogue of a president like the pussy-grabber in chief? It strains common decency.

You're kidding. Do you happen to recall what the other choice was?  I have never seen a more anti-american group than the present Democrats.  Just disgusting.  They care zero for what they espouse...just try to build a dependent voter base.

So you don't want to address your hero's racism, bigotry, sexism, lack of knowledge of basic facts, nor his self-confessed pussy grabbing? I left out his record-breaking daily lies, his admiration of dictators, and his support for white nationalists. But...but...Hillary. That's the best you've got? Pathetic.

Why bother...you just repeat what the media wants you to think.  All of the above is the narrative they have spouted from day one.    You love Bill Clinton and suspend all morality for him...then hold everyone else accountable.  Let's leave it as is....we're not changing anyone's minds.  You should however, refund any monetary gains during Trump's presidency in protest.  Send it into the treasury.  Funds will be needed to help all of the illegals attempting to come in.

napacat posted:
The Old Man posted:
napacat posted:
The Old Man posted:
napacat post:  How could anyone vote for a democrat.  It just strains common sense.

How could anyone, of any party, vote for a bigoted racist sexist know-nothing demagogue of a president like the pussy-grabber in chief? It strains common decency.

You're kidding. Do you happen to recall what the other choice was?  I have never seen a more anti-american group than the present Democrats.  Just disgusting.  They care zero for what they espouse...just try to build a dependent voter base.

So you don't want to address your hero's racism, bigotry, sexism, lack of knowledge of basic facts, nor his self-confessed pussy grabbing? I left out his record-breaking daily lies, his admiration of dictators, and his support for white nationalists. But...but...Hillary. That's the best you've got? Pathetic.

Why bother...you just repeat what the media wants you to think.  All of the above is the narrative they have spouted from day one.    You love Bill Clinton and suspend all morality for him...then hold everyone else accountable.  Let's leave it as is....we're not changing anyone's minds.  You should however, refund any monetary gains during Trump's presidency in protest.  Send it into the treasury.  Funds will be needed to help all of the illegals attempting to come in.

What the media wants me to think and not what I've seen him say and do with my own eyes. You're are truly deluded and your support for this slimeball is despicable.

But...but...Bill Clinton. Here's a link to the Soviet's favorite tack, and now apparently yours, it's the logical fallacy known as whataboutism. Again, you have no real response to defending the low-life in chief. And though you tried to make it all about sex I mentioned some of his many other deep, and anti-democratic, flaws.

And for what it's worth I not only don't love Bill Clinton, I don't even like him.

You are a very poor and weak arguer. Sad.

The Old Man posted:
napacat posted:
The Old Man posted:
napacat posted:
The Old Man posted:
napacat post:  How could anyone vote for a democrat.  It just strains common sense.

How could anyone, of any party, vote for a bigoted racist sexist know-nothing demagogue of a president like the pussy-grabber in chief? It strains common decency.

You're kidding. Do you happen to recall what the other choice was?  I have never seen a more anti-american group than the present Democrats.  Just disgusting.  They care zero for what they espouse...just try to build a dependent voter base.

So you don't want to address your hero's racism, bigotry, sexism, lack of knowledge of basic facts, nor his self-confessed pussy grabbing? I left out his record-breaking daily lies, his admiration of dictators, and his support for white nationalists. But...but...Hillary. That's the best you've got? Pathetic.

Why bother...you just repeat what the media wants you to think.  All of the above is the narrative they have spouted from day one.    You love Bill Clinton and suspend all morality for him...then hold everyone else accountable.  Let's leave it as is....we're not changing anyone's minds.  You should however, refund any monetary gains during Trump's presidency in protest.  Send it into the treasury.  Funds will be needed to help all of the illegals attempting to come in.

What the media wants me to think and not what I've seen him say and do with my own eyes. You're are truly deluded and your support for this slimeball is despicable.

But...but...Bill Clinton. Here's a link to the Soviet's favorite tack, and now apparently yours, it's the logical fallacy known as whataboutism. Again, you have no real response to defending the low-life in chief. And though you tried to make it all about sex I mentioned some of his many other deep, and anti-democratic, flaws.

And for what it's worth I not only don't love Bill Clinton, I don't even like him.

You are a very poor and weak arguer. Sad.

I'll give it a shot...it's not about "whataboutism"...it is rather just pointing out the pure hypocrisy.  That is what is truly sad.  I don't see Trump as a racist.  The immigration issue  is a complete joke the way the media portrays it.  Trump never said he had a problem with immigrants.  In fact, he said he welcomes all who come legally...as we all do.  I have a huge problem with illegals.  In fact it should make everyone upset when they see these people on TV stating..."we are coming and you cannot stop us".  The media calls them immigrants.  Which they are not. They are illegal aliens.  Come legally and you are then an immigrant.

The Charlottesville thing...saying there are good people on both sides, that was blown out of proportion completely. There are, I'm sure very good people on both sides indeed, some  who want to defend and keep the Confederate flag.  

Sexism...ok I think you got me there. The tape was pretty bad.  Cheating on your new wife is far worse and I think that is terrible.  I actually have no respect for men that do that.  

At the end of the day though...he won the primary and I could never bring myself to vote for a democrat, as I just don't believe anything they stand for.  And the thing is...neither do they.  They need to put people into groups and pit the other side (republicans) against them.  It's the only way they can get people to vote for them.. Surely it cannot be based on their ideas...

Open Borders, reparations, Abolish ICE, Carbon Tax, more income tax...on and on with nonsense.

 

billhike posted:

There are very good people in the white supremacy movement? The ones marching  with torches chanting anti-Jewish slogans?

Your parents really fucked up.

Wondering how Napa knows so much about people in the white supremacist movement....

Immigration policy is a total mess, with 100,000 people illegally crossing the border this month.  The illegals used to be just men looking for work, now it is families or purported families that cross and claim asylum.  With current laws, they get released into the US never to be seen again.  The Dems need to admit there is a serious problem and work with Repubs to fix it.  

thistlintom posted:

Immigration policy is a total mess, with 100,000 people illegally crossing the border this month.  The illegals used to be just men looking for work, now it is families or purported families that cross and claim asylum.  With current laws, they get released into the US never to be seen again.  The Dems need to admit there is a serious problem and work with Repubs to fix it.  

Absolutely a mess, and kicked down the road for too long. But I can’t help feeling that Trump’s rhetoric on the issue impedes progress. Not that Congress needs help being inefficient.

napacat posted:
The Old Man posted:
napacat posted:
The Old Man posted:
napacat posted:
The Old Man posted:
napacat post:  How could anyone vote for a democrat.  It just strains common sense.

How could anyone, of any party, vote for a bigoted racist sexist know-nothing demagogue of a president like the pussy-grabber in chief? It strains common decency.

You're kidding. Do you happen to recall what the other choice was?  I have never seen a more anti-american group than the present Democrats.  Just disgusting.  They care zero for what they espouse...just try to build a dependent voter base.

So you don't want to address your hero's racism, bigotry, sexism, lack of knowledge of basic facts, nor his self-confessed pussy grabbing? I left out his record-breaking daily lies, his admiration of dictators, and his support for white nationalists. But...but...Hillary. That's the best you've got? Pathetic.

Why bother...you just repeat what the media wants you to think.  All of the above is the narrative they have spouted from day one.    You love Bill Clinton and suspend all morality for him...then hold everyone else accountable.  Let's leave it as is....we're not changing anyone's minds.  You should however, refund any monetary gains during Trump's presidency in protest.  Send it into the treasury.  Funds will be needed to help all of the illegals attempting to come in.

What the media wants me to think and not what I've seen him say and do with my own eyes. You're are truly deluded and your support for this slimeball is despicable.

But...but...Bill Clinton. Here's a link to the Soviet's favorite tack, and now apparently yours, it's the logical fallacy known as whataboutism. Again, you have no real response to defending the low-life in chief. And though you tried to make it all about sex I mentioned some of his many other deep, and anti-democratic, flaws.

And for what it's worth I not only don't love Bill Clinton, I don't even like him.

You are a very poor and weak arguer. Sad.

I'll give it a shot...it's not about "whataboutism"...it is rather just pointing out the pure hypocrisy.  That is what is truly sad.  I don't see Trump as a racist.  The immigration issue  is a complete joke the way the media portrays it.  Trump never said he had a problem with immigrants.  In fact, he said he welcomes all who come legally...as we all do.  I have a huge problem with illegals.  In fact it should make everyone upset when they see these people on TV stating..."we are coming and you cannot stop us".  The media calls them immigrants.  Which they are not. They are illegal aliens.  Come legally and you are then an immigrant.

The Charlottesville thing...saying there are good people on both sides, that was blown out of proportion completely. There are, I'm sure very good people on both sides indeed, some  who want to defend and keep the Confederate flag.  

Sexism...ok I think you got me there. The tape was pretty bad.  Cheating on your new wife is far worse and I think that is terrible.  I actually have no respect for men that do that.  

At the end of the day though...he won the primary and I could never bring myself to vote for a democrat, as I just don't believe anything they stand for.  And the thing is...neither do they.  They need to put people into groups and pit the other side (republicans) against them.  It's the only way they can get people to vote for them.. Surely it cannot be based on their ideas...

Open Borders, reparations, Abolish ICE, Carbon Tax, more income tax...on and on with nonsense.

 

I'd like to leave you to your delusions, but as I said you're such a poor arguer, I'm afraid I can't.

Let's see how your handle Trump's long history of racism and bigotry (BTW saying that Mexico is sending rapists and murderers and SOME fine people is the pure definition of bigotry.) Your argument against, "I don't see Trump as a racist." Very nuanced response. I can give example and example (Restricting renting apartments to blacks, leading the movement to falsely claim the first black president was born in Kenya, etc.) But your brilliant retort, "I don't see Trump as a racist" shows your depth of thinking.

"The Charlottesville thing" (I love your name for this sick day in America.) Let's look at some of the groups that were there shall we?  At the Unite the Right rally were, "members of the far-right and included self-identified members of the alt-right, neo-Confederates, neo-fascists,[ white nationalists, neo-Nazis, Klansmen,and various militias. The marchers chanted racist and antisemitic slogans, carried semi-automatic rifles, Nazi and neo-Nazi symbols (such as the swastika, Odal rune, Black Sun, and Iron Cross), the Valknut, Confederate battle flags, Deus Vult crosses, flags and other symbols of various past and present anti-Muslim and antisemitic groups. Within the Charlottesville area, the rally is often known as The organizers' stated goals included unifying the American white nationalist movement and to oppose removing a statue of Robert E. Lee from Charlottesville's Lee Park."

So I guess you and the president are saying those opposed to removing statues are the fine people. But let me ask you this, whatever your cause, would it drive you to march with people flying swastikas and shouting, "Jews will not replace us"? Your man/child in chief has always had a problem calling out anyone who likes him, even neo-Nazis. But he has no problem attacking black athletes and actors.

"Sexism...ok I think you got me there. The tape was pretty bad.  Cheating on your new wife is far worse and I think that is terrible."

That kind of says it there, is it far worse to cheat on your wife than to sexually assault women?  In the tape he says that's exactly what  he does and almost 20 women have said that he has. But of course they're all lying.  I really don't care about his martial problems, that's whoever is his current wife's problem, but sexual assault (you know like your supposed to be so concerned about like Clinton) is terrible. Also what kind of man agrees with someone (in this case the yucky Howard Stern) that is daughter his a "great piece of ass"?

Anyway, you're horrible at debating so please don't type more inane things that I have to spend time on correcting.

billhike posted:

There are very good people in the white supremacy movement? The ones marching  with torches chanting anti-Jewish slogans?

Your parents really fucked up.

This...right here is why no-one can ever say anything that is not 100% mainstream with you thought police.  Not one word did I stick up for white supremacists or in favor of what they stand for.   I think there were good people marching in favor of not having statues torn down and for the Confederate flag.   And by saying that...you extrapolate it out into non-sense.

 

billhike posted:
thistlintom posted:

Immigration policy is a total mess, with 100,000 people illegally crossing the border this month.  The illegals used to be just men looking for work, now it is families or purported families that cross and claim asylum.  With current laws, they get released into the US never to be seen again.  The Dems need to admit there is a serious problem and work with Repubs to fix it.  

Absolutely a mess, and kicked down the road for too long. But I can’t help feeling that Trump’s rhetoric on the issue impedes progress. Not that Congress needs help being inefficient.

Well that may be part of it.  The other problems include many on the progressive left who want to see illegal immigration (tear down walls, eliminate ICE) and many Democrats who are more focused on taking down Trump and will oppose him regardless of the issue and the need for a fix.

napacat posted:
billhike posted:

There are very good people in the white supremacy movement? The ones marching  with torches chanting anti-Jewish slogans?

Your parents really fucked up.

This...right here is why no-one can ever say anything that is not 100% mainstream with you thought police.  Not one word did I stick up for white supremacists or in favor of what they stand for.   I think there were good people marching in favor of not having statues torn down and for the Confederate flag.   And by saying that...you extrapolate it out into non-sense.

 

As I said, what kind of fine people, no matter how good their cause (and this isn't a very good cause), would march with neo-Nazis flying swastikas, chanting racist and anti-semitic slogans? I believe I can state, without contradiction, that anyone who marches with these types of people is not a fine person.

billhike posted:
thistlintom posted:

Immigration policy is a total mess, with 100,000 people illegally crossing the border this month.  The illegals used to be just men looking for work, now it is families or purported families that cross and claim asylum.  With current laws, they get released into the US never to be seen again.  The Dems need to admit there is a serious problem and work with Repubs to fix it.  

Absolutely a mess, and kicked down the road for too long. But I can’t help feeling that Trump’s rhetoric on the issue impedes progress. Not that Congress needs help being inefficient.

As long as Trump insistes on billions for his wall, immigration reform will be stalled.  The two parties had a deal to fund the wall and give Dreamers status but Trump pulled the rug out at the last minute due to shrieking from the usual Fox News suspects.  Two of the country's best ever political tacticians lead the House and Senate and could probably craft a bipartisan deal if only Trump would get on board. And even if he did, why go to all that trouble when the only thing he can be depended upon to do is screw it up?

As for the demographic change in the largely Central American movement of refugee claimants to the US, it is not surprise to me. nor is it a bad thing.  I worked as a visa/refugee officer for 6 years in Central America, over a 26 year period (1986-2012) .  In the 80s and 90s young men and women were fleeing because they were the targets of recruiters on both sides in the various civil wars.  Now the issue is rampant crime, which affects whole families and so they are the ones fleeing.  And I say that it is not a bad thing that the movement has changed from young single people to families because young children assimilate much better than adults and their parents will still be filling the gaps in the labour market that they have always filled.  And parents with children are less likely to turn to crime than young single men and women.

The Old Man posted:
napacat posted:
billhike posted:

There are very good people in the white supremacy movement? The ones marching  with torches chanting anti-Jewish slogans?

Your parents really fucked up.

This...right here is why no-one can ever say anything that is not 100% mainstream with you thought police.  Not one word did I stick up for white supremacists or in favor of what they stand for.   I think there were good people marching in favor of not having statues torn down and for the Confederate flag.   And by saying that...you extrapolate it out into non-sense.

 

As I said, what kind of fine people, no matter how good their cause (and this isn't a very good cause), would march with neo-Nazis flying swastikas, chanting racist and anti-semitic slogans? I believe I can state, without contradiction, that anyone who marches with these types of people is not a fine person.

Not to belabor this too much - but as this descent into lunacy has proceeded, I have always said that whoever the KKK and neo-Nazis and white supremacists are aligned with/support - choosing the opposite should be a simple decision - but that is just me

thistlintom posted:
billhike posted:
thistlintom posted:

Immigration policy is a total mess, with 100,000 people illegally crossing the border this month.  The illegals used to be just men looking for work, now it is families or purported families that cross and claim asylum.  With current laws, they get released into the US never to be seen again.  The Dems need to admit there is a serious problem and work with Repubs to fix it.  

Absolutely a mess, and kicked down the road for too long. But I can’t help feeling that Trump’s rhetoric on the issue impedes progress. Not that Congress needs help being inefficient.

Well that may be part of it.  The other problems include many on the progressive left who want to see illegal immigration (tear down walls, eliminate ICE) and many Democrats who are more focused on taking down Trump and will oppose him regardless of the issue and the need for a fix.

I don’t disagree with your reply. And FWIW, I’m not fully aligned with either party’s ideology. 

The Old Man posted:
napacat posted:
billhike posted:

There are very good people in the white supremacy movement? The ones marching  with torches chanting anti-Jewish slogans?

Your parents really fucked up.

This...right here is why no-one can ever say anything that is not 100% mainstream with you thought police.  Not one word did I stick up for white supremacists or in favor of what they stand for.   I think there were good people marching in favor of not having statues torn down and for the Confederate flag.   And by saying that...you extrapolate it out into non-sense.

 

As I said, what kind of fine people, no matter how good their cause (and this isn't a very good cause), would march with neo-Nazis flying swastikas, chanting racist and anti-semitic slogans? I believe I can state, without contradiction, that anyone who marches with these types of people is not a fine person.

To you it is not a good cause...who are you to determine that?  Any good people in the BLM movement?

 

bman posted:
billhike posted:
thistlintom posted:

Immigration policy is a total mess, with 100,000 people illegally crossing the border this month.  The illegals used to be just men looking for work, now it is families or purported families that cross and claim asylum.  With current laws, they get released into the US never to be seen again.  The Dems need to admit there is a serious problem and work with Repubs to fix it.  

Absolutely a mess, and kicked down the road for too long. But I can’t help feeling that Trump’s rhetoric on the issue impedes progress. Not that Congress needs help being inefficient.

As long as Trump insistes on billions for his wall, immigration reform will be stalled.  The two parties had a deal to fund the wall and give Dreamers status but Trump pulled the rug out at the last minute due to shrieking from the usual Fox News suspects.  Two of the country's best ever political tacticians lead the House and Senate and could probably craft a bipartisan deal if only Trump would get on board. And even if he did, why go to all that trouble when the only thing he can be depended upon to do is screw it up?

As for the demographic change in the largely Central American movement of refugee claimants to the US, it is not surprise to me. nor is it a bad thing.  I worked as a visa/refugee officer for 6 years in Central America, over a 26 year period (1986-2012) .  In the 80s and 90s young men and women were fleeing because they were the targets of recruiters on both sides in the various civil wars.  Now the issue is rampant crime, which affects whole families and so they are the ones fleeing.  And I say that it is not a bad thing that the movement has changed from young single people to families because young children assimilate much better than adults and their parents will still be filling the gaps in the labour market that they have always filled.  And parents with children are less likely to turn to crime than young single men and women.

Great...come legally.  If you don't, you should be turned away at the border immediately.

napacat posted:
The Old Man posted:
napacat posted:
billhike posted:

There are very good people in the white supremacy movement? The ones marching  with torches chanting anti-Jewish slogans?

Your parents really fucked up.

This...right here is why no-one can ever say anything that is not 100% mainstream with you thought police.  Not one word did I stick up for white supremacists or in favor of what they stand for.   I think there were good people marching in favor of not having statues torn down and for the Confederate flag.   And by saying that...you extrapolate it out into non-sense.

 

As I said, what kind of fine people, no matter how good their cause (and this isn't a very good cause), would march with neo-Nazis flying swastikas, chanting racist and anti-semitic slogans? I believe I can state, without contradiction, that anyone who marches with these types of people is not a fine person.

To you it is not a good cause...who are you to determine that?  Any good people in the BLM movement?

 

God, you're an ignorant fool or just terrible at deflection. I said, "no matter how GOOD their cause is..." (And yes I personally don't think it's a good one, but let's pretend you do.) Why would would you ever march with people wearing and waving Nazi symbols (you know Nazis, like in Hitler) and chanting racist and anti-semitic chants? Again, to get through your thick skull, no matter what your cause it's never right to march with neo-Nazis and White Supremacists. You are not a fine person, however righteous your cause is, if you march with this group of scumballs. Is that concept really too difficult for you to wrap your head around? Are all Trump supporters this dense?

napacat posted:
 

Great...come legally.  If you don't, you should be turned away at the border immediately.

Actually, there is nothing illegal with approaching a border and claiming refugee status.  That's how it's done, especially when fleeing for one's life, as are many if not most of those leaving Central America.  And under the UN Refugee Convention, which is law in the US and most of the world, it is illegal to turn away a refugee claimant.  Now, once their claim is adjudicated, if it is found to be unfounded, then they can be deported but not before then, otherwise it would be the US who would be acting illegally.  

However, there is another way to approach this.  Refugees are supposed to make their claim in the first safe country they enter and so if Mexico was considered a safe country, they should make their claim there, which many do.  And the US could make an agreement with Mexico, as we have with the US, to return refugee claimants to that safe third country, in the terminology, while their claim is adjudicated in the US, as we return refugee claimants coming from the US and making a claim in Canada to the US to await their decision.  Some of them anyways.  It's a little more complicated than that.

As I know that you like to get things right, here is a link to the UN Convention so that you can educate yourself on these things:

UN Refugee Convention

Facts and logic are ineffective against terminal whataboutism, bman.

You are arguing with a poster who said, "To you it is not a good cause...who are you to determine that?  Any good people in the BLM movement?"  And this in response to this comment:

"...what kind of fine people, no matter how good their cause (and this isn't a very good cause), would march with neo-Nazis flying swastikas, chanting racist and anti-semitic slogans?"

Who are we to determine that swastika flying neo-nazis chanting racist anti-Semites aren't representing a good cause?  What the fck kind of question is that?  Seriously??

I had some really good wines over the past week.  I'll post on them in a bit.  In the meantime, carry on!

PH

 

 

Add Reply

Likes (0)
×
×
×
×