RIP...

TOM, your view of Stan and Marvel is about as facile and simplistic as you believe Stan's work was. 

Much has been written about Stan's contributions to culture, and to the shaping of kids' curiosity, worldview and self-confidence in the 1960s and 1970s.

He created a world populated with outsiders and loners who struggled against both external forces (fascism, bigotry...) and internal (grief, self-doubt, addiction...). It was powerful stuff for adolescents, teens and young adults in the 60s. Stan's dialogue was jokey and silly, but the stories were often profound, especially for a 10 year old.

Stan handed the reins over to other writers in the late 60s - people like Roy Thomas and Steve Gerber who expanded on the concepts and mandate that Stan created. When I was 11 years old in 1968, it was in a Marvel comic, The Avengers #57, that I was first exposed to the works of Shelley, when Roy Thomas quoted "Ozymandias" in a scene about the death of Ultron. I've attached that page here. The impact of that single page has stayed with me for 50 years.

And I've also attached an example of Stan's Soapbox, the editorial he wrote that appeared in every Marvel comic. Again, for a kid in his teens, this was powerful stuff.

So yes, on their surface, Marvel comics and the Marvel movie universe may seem shallow, yes, the movies may seem to be bombastic and repetitive, and the Marvel universe may appear to have swallowed the movie industry whole. But there is more to Marvel and Stan Lee than you are willing to give credit, and if Marvel movies aren't your thing (personally, honestly, I don't much care for them, but they aren't being made with me in mind), there are still many "adult" films being made. Most of them are now being made for cable, though.

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Wow, didn’t expect interesting dialogue in this thread, even though it has happened before. I think Rob, Sunny and Sea bring an insight worthy of consideration. 

I think clearly the first few decades of TV was overwhelmingly geared toward youth and lighthearted entertainment for adults. Cinema was obviously the choice for more serious options in all genres, and also offered ( thankfully) brilliant options from abroad. TV was also with few exceptions not for serious actors and was also looked down upon for serious actors, though a few used TV to revive or attempt to revive their careers. 

Today, it is just the opposite with too few exceptions. I can’t count how many times my wife and I watch a TV series from numerous outlets like Netflix, Amazon, HBO, Showtime et al and just marvel at the writing, acting and direction. It is far too rare IMO that I find a current film that I can say the same. There are still excellent films for sure without debate, but one must seek them out. As for the world of streaming, many wonderful options. Where this opinion hits me in the face is when I fly. This has been a 100k mile year for me. When I preview the movie options versus the TV series options on AA, it is night and day IMO. 

One of the many things I do sorely miss is the bigger than life experience of true cinematography when viewing film at a proper cinema. To me, the visceral reaction is too often lost on a TV, tablet or other non-traditional formats. I have a daughter that is a serious film buff. She now understands her dads position after viewing Lawrence of Arabia and others as it was meant to be seen. Also, numerous Hitchcock films and so SO many others just aren’t the same unfortunately.

Great topic.... 😎

I never said anything about the importance of his work. I talked about the consequences of it. In my opinion (does that make everybody feel better?) his work  has contributed to the dumbing-down of the movies.

Yes W+A, we are in the second golden age of television.

I don't like you either bill.

The Old Man posted:

I never said anything about the importance of his work.

In response to winetarelli saying "He changed how we story", you said "it was for the worse". That seems to me to be a comment on the value and importance of his work.

But thanks for clarifying that you only meant the recent Marvel movies, movies with which he had nothing to do, other than that he co-created the characters over 50 years ago. He sold the rights to everything many years ago. You can't blame Stan for the plotting, style, direction, visual effects, sound effects, etc.

If so, you should also blame Shakespeare for Mel Gibson's Hamlet.

sunnylea57 posted:
The Old Man posted:

I never said anything about the importance of his work.

In response to winetarelli saying "He changed how we story", you said "it was for the worse". That seems to me to be a comment on the value and importance of his work.

But thanks for clarifying that you only meant the recent Marvel movies, movies with which he had nothing to do, other than that he co-created the characters over 50 years ago. He sold the rights to everything many years ago. You can't blame Stan for the plotting, style, direction, visual effects, sound effects, etc.

If so, you should also blame Shakespeare for Mel Gibson's Hamlet.

Thank you for that. I was not trying to comment in any way on the importance of what Lee did, but what the film industry has chosen to do with it. It's a lot like what happened to the great Philip K Dick. Hollywood ruined almost every one of his stories by trying to turn them into action pictures. He was much more cerebral.

mneeley490 posted:

OM, I like filet mignon as much as the next person. But I can also enjoy a good hot dog occasionally,

It is a misconception that I only like "arty" movies. As has been pointed out, I like Star Trek. I like James Bond movies (Sean Connery only please), I like all three movies of The Evil Dead, trilogy, I like Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure (!) I like Terminator  1 & 2, Léon the ProfessionalValley Girl (yep) and Shaun of the Dead and many many more "popular" and "popcorn" movies.

Some here have said I only like old movies, yet I added my ten films in the thread that asked about the best films of the 21st century--my top one being released just last year.

I like hot dogs too, just Chicago style, with some character and zing. Of course, no chili ever!

The Old Man posted:
mneeley490 posted:

OM, I like filet mignon as much as the next person. But I can also enjoy a good hot dog occasionally,

It is a misconception that I only like "arty" movies. As has been pointed out, I like Star Trek. I like James Bond movies (Sean Connery only please), I like all three movies of The Evil Dead, trilogy, I like Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure (!) I like Terminator  1 & 2, Léon the ProfessionalValley Girl (yep) and Shaun of the Dead and many many more "popular" and "popcorn" movies.

Some here have said I only like old movies, yet I added my ten films in the thread that asked about the best films of the 21st century--my top one being released just last year.

I like hot dogs too, just Chicago style, with some character and zing. Of course, no chili ever!

But do you like short shorts?

thistlintom posted:

Regardless of political views, George HW Bush was the kind of politician that we really need.  Well educated with significant experience, a genuinely nice person who was willing to listen to those from all sides of the political spectrum.  

Yeah, that! 

mneeley490 posted:
thistlintom posted:

Regardless of political views, George HW Bush was the kind of politician that we really need.  Well educated with significant experience, a genuinely nice person who was willing to listen to those from all sides of the political spectrum.  

Yeah, that! 

He was also a man born into great privilege like our current president, yet understood humbleness, public service, community service, civility and never thought the world revolves around himself. 

Bush is so deeply revered at Texas A&M. He was a fine gentleman that will be missed. 

A perfect example of what has gone terribly wrong in DC (and the country)  as he was opposite of the current complete inability for compromise and sacrifice for the country as a whole- while I disagreed strongly on many issues, he was willing to do what he thought was needed for the country even knowing it was going to cost him greatly.   A novelist friend of ours became very close to him and Barbara over the last 10 years or so and has only the best things to say about him.  RIP

wineart 2 posted:

He was also a man born into great privilege like our current president, yet understood humbleness, public service, community service, civility and never thought the world revolves around himself. 

Bush is so deeply revered at Texas A&M. He was a fine gentleman that will be missed. 

Bill Clinton shared a note that Bush wrote and left in the oval office as one was leaving and the other was entering.  It was another great example of Bush's character which the public, including myself, probably never understood at the time until he left office.  RIP.

doubled posted:
wineart 2 posted:

He was also a man born into great privilege like our current president, yet understood humbleness, public service, community service, civility and never thought the world revolves around himself. 

Bush is so deeply revered at Texas A&M. He was a fine gentleman that will be missed. 

Bill Clinton shared a note that Bush wrote and left in the oval office as one was leaving and the other was entering.  It was another great example of Bush's character which the public, including myself, probably never understood at the time until he left office.  RIP.

Yes, he was a president and a man that brought people together, not a president and man that divided a nation or a community. 

He was also a man comfortable enough in his own skin to laugh at himself. He loved Dana Carvey on SNL mocking himself and laughed out loud. How very refreshing and a glaring contrast to today.

He led an amazing life, joined the war effort as a pilot instead of going to school, shot down and rescued, played baseball at Yale, many years dedicated as a public servant leading to the presidency.  Had a loving family and a lasting marriage, even parachuted to celebrate his birthday late in life.  Many stories about how decent he was, helping others and having many true friends, even on the other side of the political spectrum.  Having lived in Texas, have heard many stories about how nice he was to others, with very little ego.

Very moving service for GHW Bush, with military, music and eulogies.  Some very touching moments with story of James Baker by his bedside the day he died and GW Bush saying he was the best father he could have.  More tributes about him as a person than as a politician.

Travelling on business today and unable to follow the Bush funeral, though my wife did. Watching 41 right now on HBO, and is a testiment what a fine man GHWB was, much different than most politicians today. Interestingly, my father's dad was named Herbert and his mother's maiden name was Walker. RIP 41. 

Pete Shelley

Lead singer of the Buzzcocks, who were definitely part of the soundtrack of my youth. Ever Fallen in Love is 3 minutes of brilliance and proof of his songwriting abilities. At least I got to see them a couple of years ago at small venue, which while well past their creative days was still a lot of fun.

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