quote:
Originally posted by sunnylea57:
And now Tom Wolfe


One of my favorite non-fiction writers. I remember reading Radical Chic & Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers when it was published my senior year in HS. I actually have a signed copy somewhere of "The Right Stuff."
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
Will Alsop, R.I.P.

Thank you for making architecture both interesting and challenging. As a student of architecture, I always was interested in your next work.

Alsop was known as a man not familiar with gyms. Big Grin


just read a piece quoting him saying that the only thing the OCAD (arts school in Toronto he designed) was missing was a bar. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by steve8:
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by sunnylea57:
Margot Kidder

https://youtu.be/bUY48aQFcwA


I may very well be incorrect, but not sure I ever saw a film she was in.


That doesn't mean she was a bad actress. Razz

How could you not have seen Superman and/or The Amityville Horror?


Not inferring anything. As for the two films, never. Did I miss something worth watching?
quote:
Originally posted by mangiare:
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
Will Alsop, R.I.P.

Thank you for making architecture both interesting and challenging. As a student of architecture, I always was interested in your next work.

Alsop was known as a man not familiar with gyms. Big Grin


just read a piece quoting him saying that the only thing the OCAD (arts school in Toronto he designed) was missing was a bar. Big Grin


Love it!
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by steve8:
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by sunnylea57:
Margot Kidder

https://youtu.be/bUY48aQFcwA


I may very well be incorrect, but not sure I ever saw a film she was in.


That doesn't mean she was a bad actress. Razz

How could you not have seen Superman and/or The Amityville Horror?


Not inferring anything. As for the two films, never. Did I miss something worth watching?

No. I envy you.

PH

Agree with you.  Life support will not help this forum, and software changes.  Hope I'm wrong, but really doubt it.

Would love to know how many posts per week of May 1st VS  Week of May 26th.  Bet its down by over 70%.

Hope RT reads these comments, but think his hands are tied

Obviously, financial success and world fame is not the antidote to depression and other forms of mental illness.  Maybe financial success and fame (and the pressure that comes with these things) can sometimes lead to mental illness. (See, e.g., the current occupant of the W. House).  Suicides are an increasing in frequency and this is pretty troubling. I think at least one famous French Chef, upon losing a Michelin star, did the same. It's very unfortunate.

 

Just shocking.  This guy seemed to have a life that most of us would give our eye teeth to have: travel around the world, see amazing sights, eat great food, and make a fortune doing it.

No one knows what demons people have; and wealth, fame, and seeming success don't insulate anyone.  

RIP

Very upsetting. His public persona was so upbeat and enthusiastic. He seemed to have such passion for culture, for people, for food, for life experiences. He seemed genuinely curious about the world around him. But I suppose that passion and curiosity can coexist with depression. 

Sunny, and to have one of your dearest and closest friends find you. It hurts deeply to think about. 

One of my top five things in the world to do and to plan out is, having dinner with friends in cities no one at the table is from. You know Eric and Tony had dinner plans in a glorious city. 

wineart 2 posted:

Sunny, and to have one of your dearest and closest friends find you. It hurts deeply to think about. 

One of my top five things in the world to do and to plan out is, having dinner with friends in cities no one at the table is from. You know Eric and Tony had dinner plans in a glorious city. 

Plus he left an 11 year old daughter behind.  Absolutely tragic on all levels.

I am just stunned. This story was literally the first thing I saw when I turned on my computer this morning. So sad.

I remember buying Kitchen Confidential when it first came out, and passing it around to all my friends, saying "You've got to read this book!", as we had all previously worked in restaurants. Every word rang true.

 

I just watched Anthony Bourdain's meal with President Obama in Vietnam.  How cool was that?

 

Then I read for the first time his 1999 Article that started his path to fame.  I noted in particular these sentences: "People who order their meat well-done perform a valuable service for those of us in the business who are cost-conscious: they pay for the privilege of eating our garbage... the philistine who orders his food well-done is not likely to notice the difference between food and flotsam."

The man had a way with words that seem so relevant nineteen years later.

wineismylife posted:
wineart 2 posted:

Sunny, and to have one of your dearest and closest friends find you. It hurts deeply to think about. 

One of my top five things in the world to do and to plan out is, having dinner with friends in cities no one at the table is from. You know Eric and Tony had dinner plans in a glorious city. 

Plus he left an 11 year old daughter behind.  Absolutely tragic on all levels.

Plus he left an 11 year old daughter ...

More than any other aspect of this sad event, this aspect saddens me the most.

Anyone who is mentally "healthy." would consider the trauma to someone so young and so close.  He had to be in a very bad place to do this.  RIP.  

PH

wineart 2 posted:

He is too busy working to pardon Muhammad Ali, something the Supreme Court did in 1971. 

Complete and total buffoon....

A distinction, and an important one...

He wasn't pardoned.  His conviction was overturned.  There's a big difference between being forgiven and  being innocent.

PH

jcocktosten posted:

Must be pretty traumatic for Eric Ripert - definitely blows.  Good thing we are cutting funding for mental health - 

Highly doubt it was a lack of public funding that precluded Bourdain from seeking help for his illness.  More likely the macho restaurant culture and the general perception that guy's need to "man up" and deal with things on their own.  

csm posted:
jcocktosten posted:

Must be pretty traumatic for Eric Ripert - definitely blows.  Good thing we are cutting funding for mental health - 

Highly doubt it was a lack of public funding that precluded Bourdain from seeking help for his illness.  More likely the macho restaurant culture and the general perception that guy's need to "man up" and deal with things on their own.  

I'm pretty sure jc meant this in a much broader sense.  And I agree with his sentiment.

PH

purplehaze posted:
csm posted:
jcocktosten posted:

Must be pretty traumatic for Eric Ripert - definitely blows.  Good thing we are cutting funding for mental health - 

Highly doubt it was a lack of public funding that precluded Bourdain from seeking help for his illness.  More likely the macho restaurant culture and the general perception that guy's need to "man up" and deal with things on their own.  

I'm pretty sure jc meant this in a much broader sense.  And I agree with his sentiment.

PH

Agreed, but my point was that additional resources, while helpful, will be something of a band-aid. Culture needs to change and for it to be okay to seek help if you need it, especially among men.  

csm posted:
purplehaze posted:
csm posted:
jcocktosten posted:

Must be pretty traumatic for Eric Ripert - definitely blows.  Good thing we are cutting funding for mental health - 

Highly doubt it was a lack of public funding that precluded Bourdain from seeking help for his illness.  More likely the macho restaurant culture and the general perception that guy's need to "man up" and deal with things on their own.  

I'm pretty sure jc meant this in a much broader sense.  And I agree with his sentiment.

PH

Agreed, but my point was that additional resources, while helpful, will be something of a band-aid. Culture needs to change and for it to be okay to seek help if you need it, especially among men.  

I think we're on the same page here, csm.  But for culture to change, resources can't hurt.  And gig's advice to personally reach out and get involved is valid as well.  Between additional awareness and personal involvement with people we know, perhaps we can put a small dent in this.  And I speak with intimate personal knowledge of people suffering from depression.

PH

 

Depression is a horrible thing to deal with, especially if it is coupled with anxiety.  Part of the problem is withdrawal which inhibits seeking help when needed.  Also, many dealing with depression try to mask it and act normal.  I believe that there are various forms of depression, and it affects people in different ways.  For example, there can be more of a situational depression, caused by a reaction to something that has happened to the individual.  In these instances, there may be immediate danger of suicide, but there also is a more likelihood of a quicker recovery from the instance.  Other depressions, maybe due to physiological imbalances may be deeper and harder to overcome and require significant therapy and likely medications that may be required for a long time.

If one notices changes in behavior by a friend or someone you know, you can ask the person if they are having any problems, let them know you are there to support them if needed.  But the biggest key is getting the person to seek help from a professional.  Getting out of depression can be extremely difficult and may require professional help along with medications.

I feel a sense of grief beyond what I ought to feel given that I do not personally know him except through Parts Unknown and No Reservations series.  Mr. Bourdain, I hope you find the peace that alluded you in this theater and you are now and forever in a better place.  You are missed.

thistlintom posted:

 I believe that there are various forms of depression, and it affects people in different ways.  For example, there can be more of a situational depression, caused by a reaction to something that has happened to the individual.  In these instances, there may be immediate danger of suicide, but there also is a more likelihood of a quicker recovery from the instance. 

One has to be very careful not to conflate sadness (even profound sadness) or "feeling depressed"  with medical depression.  

People who are not suffering from depression are highly unlikely to commit, or even consider suicide even in the face of profound tragedy.  A lack of understanding of this disorder can lead to friends and loved ones just thinking that someone will "get over it," or "shake it off." 

A good summary by the APA HERE...

PH

 

purplehaze posted:

One has to be very careful not to conflate sadness (even profound sadness) or "feeling depressed"  with medical depression.  

People who are not suffering from depression are highly unlikely to commit, or even consider suicide even in the face of profound tragedy.  A lack of understanding of this disorder can lead to friends and loved ones just thinking that someone will "get over it," or "shake it off." 

 

PH

 

You are correct, there is a difference between sadness or grieving and depression.  However, some people think that people with depression can just get over it and it is not that easy.

I have been sad and have had depression, there is a huge difference.  Depression is a real force that is hard to combat, it distorts your thinking and affects one physically.  If you know someone who you think may be suffering from depression, don't think or say that you can just get over it, recognize it is a serious issue and let them know you are there to help them, suggest that they talk with someone who is an expert and let them know that they can get through this with help.

I'm still shaken by this. Not many people on the screen allow you to connect with them to the point of actually feeling you personally know them. RIP 

On another note, my wife and I stayed in the hotel in Kayserberg less than 2 years ago where they found Bourdain. One of the best meals I've ever had. 

mangiare posted:

I'm still shaken by this. Not many people on the screen allow you to connect with them to the point of actually feeling you personally know them. RIP 

On another note, my wife and I stayed in the hotel in Kayserberg less than 2 years ago where they found Bourdain. One of the best meals I've ever had. 

When we were in Vietnam in February we went to the spot in Hanoi where he took Obama. We discovered it was just around the corner from our hotel. It's a tiny hole in the wall joint - as are most of the best spots in Hanoi.

There are now multiple photos on the walls of the owner posing with both Bourdain and Obama.

I would say that our decision to visit Vietnam for 3 weeks was influenced to some degree by Bourdain and his passion for the country and its food.

sd-wineaux posted:
captaincancun posted:

I once ate a taco with Anthony... He is an amazing guy.

It's going to take a while addressing him in the past tense. 

 

I'd love to raise a glass and talk with you about that. Well, anything, but we could start with that.

That would be nice, if you ever travel to the Pacific Northwest and can visit Vancouver Island let me know when.

Apart from winter which is when I recharge down south.

Anne Donovan.  Hall of Fame basketball player (Naismith Hall of Fame in 1995, inaugural class of the Women’s Basketball Hall of Fame in 1999, and in 2015 the FIBA Hall of Fame), three time Olympian (two gold medals) coach, and mentor to many basketball players (both women and men).  And by all accounts, one heck of a great person.

purplehaze posted:

Charles Krauhthammer.  I disagreed with almost every opinion he had, but respected his intellect and writing.  Sometimes you need to listen to those you disagree with.

PH

Agree completely with PH. Even though I disagreed with a lot of it, he was a fantastic writer. Especially when he would do a column on sports. Interestingly, as a staunch conservative, his most recent columns were very anti-Trump, and made for fascinating reading.

purplehaze posted:

Charles Krauhthammer.  I disagreed with almost every opinion he had, but respected his intellect and writing.  Sometimes you need to listen to those you disagree with.

PH

This pretty much guarantees we are not going to have many subjects we agree on eye to eye! But civil talk is certainly enjoyable.  

purplehaze posted:

Charles Krauhthammer.  I disagreed with almost every opinion he had, but respected his intellect and writing.  Sometimes you need to listen to those you disagree with.

PH

He will be missed.  If only we had more people like Charles on both sides of the aisle who could discuss political matters civilly and from a position of well reasoned ideology, we would be much better off.  Political discourse has gone off the cliff, and is the main reason I don't get into political discussions on social media and am careful with discussions in public.

bomba503 posted:

XXXTentacion

Spoke to a generation few on this board will be able to appreciate or relate to

Count me among the few...  I am not a fan of the genre, so forgive my ignorance.  It sounds as though he was a violent misogynist.  I respect your musical insight, and would appreciate a brief comment on what I'm missing.  

PH

sunnylea57 posted:

Well this one sucks. Harlan Ellison. 84 years old.

That's odd. I was just thinking about him yesterday.

Image result for Harlan Ellison

I met him a couple times back in the 70's. This is how I remember him. I'm pretty sure I saw him wearing the same outfit. He was in his early 40's then, and such a powerhouse of a personality packed into about a 5'6" frame. Loved his stories, but in the past 15-20 years, he devolved into a pretty bitter, litigious old man. Spent all his time worrying and suing for any perceived copywrite infringements, instead of sitting down and creating new tales. Still, my fascination with his Deathbird Stories made my folks really wonder about me.

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sunnylea57 posted:

Harlan Ellison. 84 years old.

First discovered him through the excellent anthology he edited, Dangerous Visions. Also wrote probably the best Star Trek TOS' episode The City on the Edge of Forever. If you ever get a chance to read his short story I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream it will having you screaming in horror.

Steve Ditko

Co-creator of Spider-Man with Stan Lee. Died at age 90 sometime last week. Found in his NYC apartment. May have been dead a few days. He was a true eccentric and a bit of a recluse. He fell out with Stan Lee because he never got the credit he deserved. But he was also a supremely talented and unique graphic artist. One of a kind.

His writing while always about food, was really about the greatness of being a city with so many varied countries' cuisine and peoples. This sentence, about his early time living in Korea Town explains it all:

“The neighborhood — the diversity of the neighborhood — may have been what drove me to write about food in the first place. Immediately before the riots there had been restaurants from 14 regions within a few minutes’ walk from my apartment. Not just the Korean, Mexican and Japanese places you might have expected, but restaurants from Sumatra, Thailand, Guatemala, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Holland, Colombia, Nicaragua, Japan and Peru among others — all coexisting, all more or less delicious. It’s one thing to decide whether you feel like burgers or pizza for dinner; another to choose between bangusempek-empek or brains masala.”

Amazingly he was also an assistant to artist Chris Burden during his dangerous performance art phase.

purplehaze posted:

Joel Robuchon.

PH

I’ve been to l'atelier in Paris a few times, London a few times and Vegas a few times and loved them all.  The first time in Paris left a real impression and my wife and I still talk about a few of the courses.  The mashed potatoes of course are legendary and worthy of the praise.  

Went to the 3 star in Vegas once and while still had a grand time always felt his best venue was L’atelier.  

RIP to a great talent that really changed the game.  

I don't know what all this talk is about Aretha. Could she wear leotard outfits like the great Bey? Could she swing from a wreaking ball like Miley? Could she do multiple costume changes, and rhyme "moon" and "boom", like Katy Perry? Could she wear outrageous costumes like Lady Gaga? No, all she could do is sing with a great voice and delivery, and in the early days shake her hips a little. What kind of talent is that?

theoldman posted:

I don't know what all this talk is about Aretha. Could she wear leotard outfits like the great Bey? Could she swing from a wreaking ball like Miley? Could she do multiple costume changes, and rhyme "moon" and "boom", like Katy Perry? Could she wear outrageous costumes like Lady Gaga? No, all she could do is sing with a great voice and delivery, and in the early days shake her hips a little. What kind of talent is that?

If they can still belt it out like this when they're 73, we can revisit the question, TOM!

PH

purplehaze posted:
theoldman posted:

I don't know what all this talk is about Aretha. Could she wear leotard outfits like the great Bey? Could she swing from a wreaking ball like Miley? Could she do multiple costume changes, and rhyme "moon" and "boom", like Katy Perry? Could she wear outrageous costumes like Lady Gaga? No, all she could do is sing with a great voice and delivery, and in the early days shake her hips a little. What kind of talent is that?

If they can still belt it out like this when they're 73, we can revisit the question, TOM!

PH

They can't belt it out now. 

theoldman posted:
purplehaze posted:
theoldman posted:

I don't know what all this talk is about Aretha. Could she wear leotard outfits like the great Bey? Could she swing from a wreaking ball like Miley? Could she do multiple costume changes, and rhyme "moon" and "boom", like Katy Perry? Could she wear outrageous costumes like Lady Gaga? No, all she could do is sing with a great voice and delivery, and in the early days shake her hips a little. What kind of talent is that?

If they can still belt it out like this when they're 73, we can revisit the question, TOM!

PH

They can't belt it out now. 

Certainly not like Aretha, or Gladys, or Ronstatd or .....

thistlintom posted:
theoldman posted:
purplehaze posted:
theoldman posted:

I don't know what all this talk is about Aretha. Could she wear leotard outfits like the great Bey? Could she swing from a wreaking ball like Miley? Could she do multiple costume changes, and rhyme "moon" and "boom", like Katy Perry? Could she wear outrageous costumes like Lady Gaga? No, all she could do is sing with a great voice and delivery, and in the early days shake her hips a little. What kind of talent is that?

If they can still belt it out like this when they're 73, we can revisit the question, TOM!

PH

They can't belt it out now. 

Certainly not like Aretha, or Gladys, or Ronstatd or .....

Not saying they're better than Aretha, but....

To discount Lady Gaga's singing talents because of her wardrobe is small minded.

Also, don't forget about Adele, who is a wonderful talent today. 

I've seen Pink live numerous times, strip away all the theatrics (which make for a great show) and she can belt it out. 

There are truly some great voices in today's music, if you don't get caught up in generational bias.

patespo1 posted:
thistlintom posted:
theoldman posted:
purplehaze posted:
theoldman posted:

I don't know what all this talk is about Aretha. Could she wear leotard outfits like the great Bey? Could she swing from a wreaking ball like Miley? Could she do multiple costume changes, and rhyme "moon" and "boom", like Katy Perry? Could she wear outrageous costumes like Lady Gaga? No, all she could do is sing with a great voice and delivery, and in the early days shake her hips a little. What kind of talent is that?

If they can still belt it out like this when they're 73, we can revisit the question, TOM!

PH

They can't belt it out now. 

Certainly not like Aretha, or Gladys, or Ronstatd or .....

Not saying they're better than Aretha, but....

To discount Lady Gaga's singing talents because of her wardrobe is small minded.

Also, don't forget about Adele, who is a wonderful talent today. 

I've seen Pink live numerous times, strip away all the theatrics (which make for a great show) and she can belt it out. 

There are truly some great voices in today's music, if you don't get caught up in generational bias.

Lest we not forget that Gaga is also a brilliant concert pianist. Was at NYU Tisch school of music before bailing when her career took off. Details details

patespo1 posted:
thistlintom posted:
theoldman posted:
purplehaze posted:
theoldman posted:

I don't know what all this talk is about Aretha. Could she wear leotard outfits like the great Bey? Could she swing from a wreaking ball like Miley? Could she do multiple costume changes, and rhyme "moon" and "boom", like Katy Perry? Could she wear outrageous costumes like Lady Gaga? No, all she could do is sing with a great voice and delivery, and in the early days shake her hips a little. What kind of talent is that?

If they can still belt it out like this when they're 73, we can revisit the question, TOM!

PH

They can't belt it out now. 

Certainly not like Aretha, or Gladys, or Ronstatd or .....

Not saying they're better than Aretha, but....

To discount Lady Gaga's singing talents because of her wardrobe is small minded.

Also, don't forget about Adele, who is a wonderful talent today. 

I've seen Pink live numerous times, strip away all the theatrics (which make for a great show) and she can belt it out. 

There are truly some great voices in today's music, if you don't get caught up in generational bias.

Don't forget Ella Fitzgerald who could blow any of them away on almost any day of her life. It was truly a great voice if you don't get caught up in thinking newer is better. Ella was better than Adele and certainly better than Lady Gaga. There is a best and she was it.

My only point in this conversation was Aretha's ability to perform incredibly over 60+ years.  There are many artists who have incredible talent who burn out quickly and never recover.  I look forward to hearing Gaga, Pink and others after a few decades of aging.

And Adele?  Overwrought and commercial.

Aretha was a fighter, and a truly an American icon.  RIP.

PH

Comparing Aretha to the performers of today, I think of the famous Nixon/Kennedy debate.  Those that watched on TV thought Kennedy had won. Those who only listened to them on the radio were sure that Nixon had won.  

Up until the advent of MTV, people generally only knew the performers by their voices on radio or record album. (Unless you tuned into the Ed Sullivan show.)  I think that if you were to compare only singer's voices, without looking at the showmanship or attire, you get a better grasp of their talent. I used to tell my daughter to look at the members of the bands. If most are fugly, then that means they got there on shear talent instead of pretty boy or girl looks that tend to rely on showbiz connections and studio magic. 

For everything sacred in our life. Please, no one mention the current POS in the Oval Office. 

America has lost an American hero. 

For whom the bells toll, it tolls for thee. R.IP. to a man that refused an early release from the Hanoi Hilton, and then received extraordinary torture for his heroic decision. 

You’ll recall that John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were political rivals, but colleagues, and they died on the exact same day.
Turns out Ted Kennedy and John McCain were political rivals, each not quite getting to the Presidency, and they died on the same day also, 9 years apart, of the same form of cancer.
What a great man John McCain was.  What a loss to the country. 

Our condolences to his family.

Although he had a couple of stumbles in his political career, I always admired him. He truly believed in the principles and standards of our country, and fought almost more than anyone else to uphold them. Only those that made the ultimate sacrifice did more. I cannot think of a single person in DC today that is fit to take up his mantle, and the entire lot of them combined could never match his worth. 

Heard today that Bush II, Obama, and Biden will be speaking at his funeral. The POS was pointedly not invited to attend. But I'm sure that somehow he will try to make it all about himself.

McCain endured things that most people couldn't imagine, he loved his country and was a patriot.  I hope his family has solace and that he RIP.  I have some issues with his political stances, but I don't doubt that he did things that he thought was in the best interest of his country.  I wish we would have more people who cared as deeply as he did about the country that are in positions of political power.

vinoevelo posted:

Don Panoz.  Did so much for sportscar racing from car design to tracks to governing bodies and everything else to drag it forward.  Still love his GT1 cars.

Thanks for the info.  Missed that he passed.  A fun guy, met him many times during my racing days.

flwino posted:
vinoevelo posted:

Don Panoz.  Did so much for sportscar racing from car design to tracks to governing bodies and everything else to drag it forward.  Still love his GT1 cars.

Thanks for the info.  Missed that he passed.  A fun guy, met him many times during my racing days.

A very nice guy and super smart. Invented the trans-dermal patch, most widely used as the nicotine patch and owned Chateau Elan in Georgia. He was a real wine guy. But I'll always like him the most for creating the American LeMans Series and dragging my home track Mosport out of the 60's and into the present. 

theoldman posted:

The underappreciated Marty Balin. One of my top concerts was the free Jefferson Airplane appearance at Grant Park, Chicago in 1969. 

I listened to Surrealistic Pillow yesterday. First time in about half a year. Had no idea he had died. Funny how that works, but really great album. RIP. 

Willie McCovey, age 80.  A great baseball player for the Giants.  Hall of Fame. 18 grand slams.  One of only 4 players in history to hit a home run in 4 different decades. Finished with 521 Homers.  Hit 3 pinch hit Grand Slams.  Rookie of the year.

He was one of the best ever.

 

irwin posted:

Willie McCovey, age 80.  A great baseball player for the Giants.  Hall of Fame. 18 grand slams.  One of only 4 players in history to hit a home run in 4 different decades. Finished with 521 Homers.  Hit 3 pinch hit Grand Slams.  Rookie of the year.

He was one of the best ever.

 

An all time great. R.I.P.

winetarelli posted:
sunnylea57 posted:

Stan Lee. 95 years of age.

We all knew it was coming. But it’s big. He changed how we story. 

"How we story"? Anyway it was for the worse. Turned an already 14-year-old Hollywood targeted audience to an endless stream of made-for-children comic book movies and sequels. Hooray for Hollywood.

The Old Man posted:
winetarelli posted:
sunnylea57 posted:

Stan Lee. 95 years of age.

We all knew it was coming. But it’s big. He changed how we story. 

"How we story"? Anyway it was for the worse. Turned an already 14-year-old Hollywood targeted audience to an endless stream of made-for-children comic book movies and sequels. Hooray for Hollywood.

Yes, TOM. 

How we tell stories. What types of stories we tell. The media used. He didn’t have a huge impact on me, but on many people I know. And for them, he made them feel seen. Or so they say. 

I like many of the Marvel films. I do wish that type of money was put behind some more substantial projects as well, too, these days. But that is beyond the point I’m making here. 

winetarelli posted:
The Old Man posted:
winetarelli posted:
sunnylea57 posted:

Stan Lee. 95 years of age.

We all knew it was coming. But it’s big. He changed how we story. 

"How we story"? Anyway it was for the worse. Turned an already 14-year-old Hollywood targeted audience to an endless stream of made-for-children comic book movies and sequels. Hooray for Hollywood.

Yes, TOM. 

How we tell stories.

Forgive my grammar policing. The trend of the verbing of nouns really gives me the willies.

This period in film history reminds me of the late 70s when children's stories--like "Star Wars", "Indiana Jones" and the creation of the "blockbuster" caused the great new wave of late 60s to mid 70s Hollywood filmmaking to crumble away. This trend really exploded again in the 21st century  (after 9/11 and the sobering of America?) with comic book heros in mega-franchises aimed squarely at teenagers.

Anyways blah, blah, blah, "Citizen Kane."

Glad you're safe and your home is only smoky not burned down.

TOM movies, like literature, are art and social commentary but they are also escapism. There are periods of time when that last reason for movie goers is the most important. Marvel studios has consistently done a great job of making good quality escapism that appeals both to the common person and a broad swath of the population that has always felt marginalized.

It's actually helped geek/nerdiness to be less stigmatized. Maybe not high art but not in someways no less important.

Stan Lee introduced some unique heroes such as Spider-Man and Hulk to a couple of generations of fans. He had a significant influence on pop culture.

History will eventually determine how important his contributions are. I suppose Hercules, Odysseus, Beowulf, and similar superheroes of previous generations all had their detractors who weren’t smart enough to recognize the influence those fictional characters would have on Western civilization and world literature.  I don’t know whether Lee’s characters will have that kind of longevity, but it’s pretty silly to be dismissive of his impact before it’s measured by the test of time; we already know that he’s greatly influenced a contemporary genre. Not a lot of people have ever been able to do that.

TOM, your view of Stan and Marvel is about as facile and simplistic as you believe Stan's work was. 

Much has been written about Stan's contributions to culture, and to the shaping of kids' curiosity, worldview and self-confidence in the 1960s and 1970s.

He created a world populated with outsiders and loners who struggled against both external forces (fascism, bigotry...) and internal (grief, self-doubt, addiction...). It was powerful stuff for adolescents, teens and young adults in the 60s. Stan's dialogue was jokey and silly, but the stories were often profound, especially for a 10 year old.

Stan handed the reins over to other writers in the late 60s - people like Roy Thomas and Steve Gerber who expanded on the concepts and mandate that Stan created. When I was 11 years old in 1968, it was in a Marvel comic, The Avengers #57, that I was first exposed to the works of Shelley, when Roy Thomas quoted "Ozymandias" in a scene about the death of Ultron. I've attached that page here. The impact of that single page has stayed with me for 50 years.

And I've also attached an example of Stan's Soapbox, the editorial he wrote that appeared in every Marvel comic. Again, for a kid in his teens, this was powerful stuff.

So yes, on their surface, Marvel comics and the Marvel movie universe may seem shallow, yes, the movies may seem to be bombastic and repetitive, and the Marvel universe may appear to have swallowed the movie industry whole. But there is more to Marvel and Stan Lee than you are willing to give credit, and if Marvel movies aren't your thing (personally, honestly, I don't much care for them, but they aren't being made with me in mind), there are still many "adult" films being made. Most of them are now being made for cable, though.

46002445_10215483844960767_3524468429593509888_navengers-57-ozymandias-buscema

 

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Wow, didn’t expect interesting dialogue in this thread, even though it has happened before. I think Rob, Sunny and Sea bring an insight worthy of consideration. 

I think clearly the first few decades of TV was overwhelmingly geared toward youth and lighthearted entertainment for adults. Cinema was obviously the choice for more serious options in all genres, and also offered ( thankfully) brilliant options from abroad. TV was also with few exceptions not for serious actors and was also looked down upon for serious actors, though a few used TV to revive or attempt to revive their careers. 

Today, it is just the opposite with too few exceptions. I can’t count how many times my wife and I watch a TV series from numerous outlets like Netflix, Amazon, HBO, Showtime et al and just marvel at the writing, acting and direction. It is far too rare IMO that I find a current film that I can say the same. There are still excellent films for sure without debate, but one must seek them out. As for the world of streaming, many wonderful options. Where this opinion hits me in the face is when I fly. This has been a 100k mile year for me. When I preview the movie options versus the TV series options on AA, it is night and day IMO. 

One of the many things I do sorely miss is the bigger than life experience of true cinematography when viewing film at a proper cinema. To me, the visceral reaction is too often lost on a TV, tablet or other non-traditional formats. I have a daughter that is a serious film buff. She now understands her dads position after viewing Lawrence of Arabia and others as it was meant to be seen. Also, numerous Hitchcock films and so SO many others just aren’t the same unfortunately.

Great topic.... 😎

I never said anything about the importance of his work. I talked about the consequences of it. In my opinion (does that make everybody feel better?) his work  has contributed to the dumbing-down of the movies.

Yes W+A, we are in the second golden age of television.

I don't like you either bill.

The Old Man posted:

I never said anything about the importance of his work.

In response to winetarelli saying "He changed how we story", you said "it was for the worse". That seems to me to be a comment on the value and importance of his work.

But thanks for clarifying that you only meant the recent Marvel movies, movies with which he had nothing to do, other than that he co-created the characters over 50 years ago. He sold the rights to everything many years ago. You can't blame Stan for the plotting, style, direction, visual effects, sound effects, etc.

If so, you should also blame Shakespeare for Mel Gibson's Hamlet.

sunnylea57 posted:
The Old Man posted:

I never said anything about the importance of his work.

In response to winetarelli saying "He changed how we story", you said "it was for the worse". That seems to me to be a comment on the value and importance of his work.

But thanks for clarifying that you only meant the recent Marvel movies, movies with which he had nothing to do, other than that he co-created the characters over 50 years ago. He sold the rights to everything many years ago. You can't blame Stan for the plotting, style, direction, visual effects, sound effects, etc.

If so, you should also blame Shakespeare for Mel Gibson's Hamlet.

Thank you for that. I was not trying to comment in any way on the importance of what Lee did, but what the film industry has chosen to do with it. It's a lot like what happened to the great Philip K Dick. Hollywood ruined almost every one of his stories by trying to turn them into action pictures. He was much more cerebral.

mneeley490 posted:

OM, I like filet mignon as much as the next person. But I can also enjoy a good hot dog occasionally,

It is a misconception that I only like "arty" movies. As has been pointed out, I like Star Trek. I like James Bond movies (Sean Connery only please), I like all three movies of The Evil Dead, trilogy, I like Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure (!) I like Terminator  1 & 2, Léon the ProfessionalValley Girl (yep) and Shaun of the Dead and many many more "popular" and "popcorn" movies.

Some here have said I only like old movies, yet I added my ten films in the thread that asked about the best films of the 21st century--my top one being released just last year.

I like hot dogs too, just Chicago style, with some character and zing. Of course, no chili ever!

The Old Man posted:
mneeley490 posted:

OM, I like filet mignon as much as the next person. But I can also enjoy a good hot dog occasionally,

It is a misconception that I only like "arty" movies. As has been pointed out, I like Star Trek. I like James Bond movies (Sean Connery only please), I like all three movies of The Evil Dead, trilogy, I like Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure (!) I like Terminator  1 & 2, Léon the ProfessionalValley Girl (yep) and Shaun of the Dead and many many more "popular" and "popcorn" movies.

Some here have said I only like old movies, yet I added my ten films in the thread that asked about the best films of the 21st century--my top one being released just last year.

I like hot dogs too, just Chicago style, with some character and zing. Of course, no chili ever!

But do you like short shorts?

thistlintom posted:

Regardless of political views, George HW Bush was the kind of politician that we really need.  Well educated with significant experience, a genuinely nice person who was willing to listen to those from all sides of the political spectrum.  

Yeah, that! 

mneeley490 posted:
thistlintom posted:

Regardless of political views, George HW Bush was the kind of politician that we really need.  Well educated with significant experience, a genuinely nice person who was willing to listen to those from all sides of the political spectrum.  

Yeah, that! 

He was also a man born into great privilege like our current president, yet understood humbleness, public service, community service, civility and never thought the world revolves around himself. 

Bush is so deeply revered at Texas A&M. He was a fine gentleman that will be missed. 

A perfect example of what has gone terribly wrong in DC (and the country)  as he was opposite of the current complete inability for compromise and sacrifice for the country as a whole- while I disagreed strongly on many issues, he was willing to do what he thought was needed for the country even knowing it was going to cost him greatly.   A novelist friend of ours became very close to him and Barbara over the last 10 years or so and has only the best things to say about him.  RIP

wineart 2 posted:

He was also a man born into great privilege like our current president, yet understood humbleness, public service, community service, civility and never thought the world revolves around himself. 

Bush is so deeply revered at Texas A&M. He was a fine gentleman that will be missed. 

Bill Clinton shared a note that Bush wrote and left in the oval office as one was leaving and the other was entering.  It was another great example of Bush's character which the public, including myself, probably never understood at the time until he left office.  RIP.

doubled posted:
wineart 2 posted:

He was also a man born into great privilege like our current president, yet understood humbleness, public service, community service, civility and never thought the world revolves around himself. 

Bush is so deeply revered at Texas A&M. He was a fine gentleman that will be missed. 

Bill Clinton shared a note that Bush wrote and left in the oval office as one was leaving and the other was entering.  It was another great example of Bush's character which the public, including myself, probably never understood at the time until he left office.  RIP.

Yes, he was a president and a man that brought people together, not a president and man that divided a nation or a community. 

He was also a man comfortable enough in his own skin to laugh at himself. He loved Dana Carvey on SNL mocking himself and laughed out loud. How very refreshing and a glaring contrast to today.

He led an amazing life, joined the war effort as a pilot instead of going to school, shot down and rescued, played baseball at Yale, many years dedicated as a public servant leading to the presidency.  Had a loving family and a lasting marriage, even parachuted to celebrate his birthday late in life.  Many stories about how decent he was, helping others and having many true friends, even on the other side of the political spectrum.  Having lived in Texas, have heard many stories about how nice he was to others, with very little ego.

Very moving service for GHW Bush, with military, music and eulogies.  Some very touching moments with story of James Baker by his bedside the day he died and GW Bush saying he was the best father he could have.  More tributes about him as a person than as a politician.

Travelling on business today and unable to follow the Bush funeral, though my wife did. Watching 41 right now on HBO, and is a testiment what a fine man GHWB was, much different than most politicians today. Interestingly, my father's dad was named Herbert and his mother's maiden name was Walker. RIP 41. 

Pete Shelley

Lead singer of the Buzzcocks, who were definitely part of the soundtrack of my youth. Ever Fallen in Love is 3 minutes of brilliance and proof of his songwriting abilities. At least I got to see them a couple of years ago at small venue, which while well past their creative days was still a lot of fun.

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