quote:
Originally posted by haggis:
quote:
Originally posted by dinwiddie:
Heather Heyer. Killed by the Neo-Nazi POS while opposing racism and hate.


+1


+2! I hear this animal is going to be charged with 2nd degree murder. Why not 1st degree? He had planned to do this and death was a logical conclusion. Is it because he didn't know the poor woman he killed? Any lawyers know what is going on with these charges?
quote:
Originally posted by Board-O:
quote:
Originally posted by haggis:
quote:
Originally posted by dinwiddie:
Heather Heyer. Killed by the Neo-Nazi POS while opposing racism and hate.


+1


+2! I hear this animal is going to be charged with 2nd degree murder. Why not 1st degree? He had planned to do this and death was a logical conclusion. Is it because he didn't know the poor woman he killed? Any lawyers know what is going on with these charges?


The answer is based on Virginia law, but I assume that the cops don't think they can prove that this guy planned and intended to kill someone (premeditation) but rather it was "heat of passion" murder. that is, he drove to Charlottesville from Ohio not intending to kill anyone. But, tempers flew, he lost it, and went to his car, started the engine and drove into the crowd.
That is a bit speculative on my part.
There is also something called "depraved heart" murder, which I thought was 1st degree murder, and this would seem to qualify.
Note: I only do civil law, not criminal.

The statues of the confederate generals, who are venerated by the Neo Nazis (and there is very little "neo" about them) should be removed. A statue of Heather Heyer should be erected.
Why stop with monuments to just Confederate generals? How about the Founding Fathers who owned slaves (Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Hamilton, Madison, John Adams). Seems like there are quite a few large monuments that need to be pulled down before those neo-Nazis start glorifying them too.
quote:
Originally posted by Arsenal4ever:
Why stop with monuments to just Confederate generals? How about the Founding Fathers who owned slaves (Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Hamilton, Madison, John Adams). Seems like there are quite a few large monuments that need to be pulled down before those neo-Nazis start glorifying them too.


I used to think this also. George Washington is, after all, on the $1 bill. But, here is the difference. It's not just that George Washington and those other folks did a lot of good stuff. Most of the statues to Lee, Stonewall Jackson, etc. were erected in the timeframe of 1900-1920, as homage not to the person, but as a statement that Segregation, Jim Crow, poll taxes, and other vestiges of slavery should be honored. None of that should be honored. It is part of our history, but it is a blight on that history.
Don't know how old you are, but I am old enough that I remember segregated schools here in Maryland and segregated restaurants. It is odious. By the way, I sort of doubt that John Adams owned any slaves, but perhaps you are more of a history buff than I.

The point is this: Our society has moved on from the days of slavery and segregation. We've enacted laws to prohibit these types of things.
We should not venerate those who sought to destroy our country through secession and war.
The men you mention sought to build up our country, and were the authors of our great Constitution (with its frailties) and our Revolution. I don't favor erecting a monument to King George III, just because he was part of our history.
Let's build our country up, not tear it down.
I hope that is ok with you.
One more thought....
My father came to this country at around age 19 as a refugee from Hitler. Your personal status in his birth country did not determine merely economic status, or to what school you could go, but whether you were put to death or not.

Upon his arrival here, my father tried to get into the US Army to go back to Europe to fight in WW II. But, he wasn't a citizen, couldn't speak English too well, and had bad knees and poor eyesight. The army turned him down. But, by 1943 his English had improved some and he tried again and was whisked into Texas for a 2 week citizenship training thing, got his US citizenship, and shipped out to Europe. He became a sergeant and the fact that he could speak German and French was useful.
Many years after the war he noted to my brother and me that one thing he could not understand- We were there to fight racism. Why did we have a segregated Army?
We're really not arguing against each other. My point is - where does it stop? The Founding Fathers that are on those monuments (and yes - Adams was a slave holder), allowed slavery to continue. They did not attempt to stop it (or limit it) when this country was founded despite the principals they enacted, and the following generations, actually passed laws (Fugitive Slave) to protect the slave holders "property." Probably the true beginning of Jim Crow. So we venerate Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, etc., but shouldn't they be potential targets as the Confederacy is now? And, not that it matters, but I am descended from ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Civil War, Spanish American, and WW2.
Glad we're not arguing, just discussing.

I think a reasonable test would be this: Would we today create a statue, mint a postage stamp, or place this person on a new coin?
The folks you mentioned: Franklin, Washington, etc..... the answer, I think is "yes". They had faults. We all do. (Even I do!) Biblical figures, like Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad....all had faults because imperfection is an element of humanness.
But, would we mint a coin today to honor Stonewall Jackson? A postage stamp to honor the birthday of Rbt. E. Lee? I return to the example of King George III.-- would we honor him?

Somehow I am reminded of the words of Billy Shakespeare in the Mark Antony speech...
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones"
Perhaps this thought supports your position, perhaps mine. But, as you say, we are not arguing, just discussing.
quote:
Originally posted by irwin:
quote:
Originally posted by Arsenal4ever:
Why stop with monuments to just Confederate generals? How about the Founding Fathers who owned slaves (Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Hamilton, Madison, John Adams). Seems like there are quite a few large monuments that need to be pulled down before those neo-Nazis start glorifying them too.


I used to think this also. George Washington is, after all, on the $1 bill. But, here is the difference. It's not just that George Washington and those other folks did a lot of good stuff. Most of the statues to Lee, Stonewall Jackson, etc. were erected in the timeframe of 1900-1920, as homage not to the person, but as a statement that Segregation, Jim Crow, poll taxes, and other vestiges of slavery should be honored. None of that should be honored. It is part of our history, but it is a blight on that history.
Don't know how old you are, but I am old enough that I remember segregated schools here in Maryland and segregated restaurants. It is odious. By the way, I sort of doubt that John Adams owned any slaves, but perhaps you are more of a history buff than I.

The point is this: Our society has moved on from the days of slavery and segregation. We've enacted laws to prohibit these types of things.
We should not venerate those who sought to destroy our country through secession and war.
The men you mention sought to build up our country, and were the authors of our great Constitution (with its frailties) and our Revolution. I don't favor erecting a monument to King George III, just because he was part of our history.
Let's build our country up, not tear it down.
I hope that is ok with you.



Agreed about the statues. Many were, indeed, erected WELL after the Civil War. In fact, because the Confederacy was defeated, there was no way to erect such statues at the time. It would be like erecting statues to British generals in US cities after the War of Independence. Or to George III, as Irwin notes. Now way that would or could have happened. Same in this present case. As Irwin says, the majority of these statues were erected by those who supported Jim Crow, segregation, etc. They were not erected with good intentions or thoughtful consideration, so I think it is fine that they come down.
quote:
Originally posted by irwin:
Glad we're not arguing, just discussing.

I think a reasonable test would be this: Would we today create a statue, mint a postage stamp, or place this person on a new coin?
The folks you mentioned: Franklin, Washington, etc..... the answer, I think is "yes". They had faults. We all do. (Even I do!) Biblical figures, like Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad....all had faults because imperfection is an element of humanness.
But, would we mint a coin today to honor Stonewall Jackson? A postage stamp to honor the birthday of Rbt. E. Lee? I return to the example of King George III.-- would we honor him?

Somehow I am reminded of the words of Billy Shakespeare in the Mark Antony speech...
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones"
Perhaps this thought supports your position, perhaps mine. But, as you say, we are not arguing, just discussing.


I'm aware of at least 7 direct ancestors of mine that fought for the south during the Civil War, so while I think these monuments can be made part of history, I'd say the line is quite clear for me. We shouldn't honor generals of the losing side of a war in public squares, in front of courthouses, etc. They should only be displayed in milatary cemeteries and war memorials. Don't re-write history, but also don't give more honor to the losing side than deserved.
I usually avoid these types of discussions, but here goes. Your points are well made.
At the conclusion of the Civil War, within five years, Union statues and memorials were erected on battlefields, most of which were in the South. The South was defeated and basically destitute (economy wrecked), and could not afford the cost to build any. Did you know that 20% of Mississippi's 1866 budget went for prosthetics? Most of the Confederate memorials that are in question were built 15-20 years after the War, and those on the battlefields are dwarfed in size by those built by the winning side. And yes, I'm sure some were build explicitly to remind the freed slaves that they were still under master's control. But some were built to remember or memorialize family members that perished in the War. Looking at Union statues on Southern soil after losing the War had to be hard to stomach for some.
Anyway, end of what little I know. I only hope that we don't always use 21st Century logic to explain and do away with 19th Century actions. We might decide that some of our heroes (Washington, Jefferson, etc.) also don't deserve the memorials we've built.
quote:
Originally posted by Arsenal4ever:
I usually avoid these types of discussions, but here goes. Your points are well made.
At the conclusion of the Civil War, within five years, Union statues and memorials were erected on battlefields, most of which were in the South. The South was defeated and basically destitute (economy wrecked), and could not afford the cost to build any. Did you know that 20% of Mississippi's 1866 budget went for prosthetics? Most of the Confederate memorials that are in question were built 15-20 years after the War, and those on the battlefields are dwarfed in size by those built by the winning side. And yes, I'm sure some were build explicitly to remind the freed slaves that they were still under master's control. But some were built to remember or memorialize family members that perished in the War. Looking at Union statues on Southern soil after losing the War had to be hard to stomach for some.
Anyway, end of what little I know. I only hope that we don't always use 21st Century logic to explain and do away with 19th Century actions. We might decide that some of our heroes (Washington, Jefferson, etc.) also don't deserve the memorials we've built.


This could be very dangerous path we are embarking on.
quote:
Originally posted by Napacat:
quote:
Originally posted by Arsenal4ever:
I usually avoid these types of discussions, but here goes. Your points are well made.
At the conclusion of the Civil War, within five years, Union statues and memorials were erected on battlefields, most of which were in the South. The South was defeated and basically destitute (economy wrecked), and could not afford the cost to build any. Did you know that 20% of Mississippi's 1866 budget went for prosthetics? Most of the Confederate memorials that are in question were built 15-20 years after the War, and those on the battlefields are dwarfed in size by those built by the winning side. And yes, I'm sure some were build explicitly to remind the freed slaves that they were still under master's control. But some were built to remember or memorialize family members that perished in the War. Looking at Union statues on Southern soil after losing the War had to be hard to stomach for some.
Anyway, end of what little I know. I only hope that we don't always use 21st Century logic to explain and do away with 19th Century actions. We might decide that some of our heroes (Washington, Jefferson, etc.) also don't deserve the memorials we've built.


This could be very dangerous path we are embarking on.


And as I wrote that...I learned that Sharpton wants to have the Jefferson Memorial taken down. You have got to be kidding...sadly he is not.
quote:
Originally posted by Arsenal4ever:
We're really not arguing against each other. My point is - where does it stop? The Founding Fathers that are on those monuments (and yes - Adams was a slave holder), allowed slavery to continue. They did not attempt to stop it (or limit it) when this country was founded despite the principals they enacted, and the following generations, actually passed laws (Fugitive Slave) to protect the slave holders "property." Probably the true beginning of Jim Crow. So we venerate Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, etc., but shouldn't they be potential targets as the Confederacy is now? And, not that it matters, but I am descended from ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Civil War, Spanish American, and WW2.


John Adams did not own slaves.
quote:
Originally posted by Seaquam:
quote:
Originally posted by billhike:

abortion...


Why Bill, thank you for providing another inoffensive topic of discussion to which we can drift. It seems as though we never really have enough of these.

Now, what position to take on this issue... Big Grin


Woman's right to choose!
Jerry Lewis was iconic as a young actor/comedian. His charitable was extraordinary and worthy of a Nobel prize. He was nominated but never received that honor.
RIP Mr. Lewis. Your memories will be time honored. Condolences to his entire family and professional community.

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