Mark Herold's of Merus new wine call Ardore

A new high end winery comes up every week in Napa. I think its starting to get very late in the game for most of these new wineries.

Ya, great website they have there.

I can't seem to find the price of any of their wines. They must want people to sign up for their list who don't care what they pay for a bottle of wine. I'm already on the list of two Mark Harold wines, and I knew their cost before I signed up!

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Originally posted by latour67:
I can't seem to find the price of any of their wines. They must want people to sign up for their list who don't care what they pay for a bottle of wine. I'm already on the list of two Mark Harold wines, and I knew their cost before I signed up!

I'm guessing after the success of LM, that's the new game plan.

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Originally posted by sprnplr:

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Originally posted by latour67:
I can't seem to find the price of any of their wines. They must want people to sign up for their list who don't care what they pay for a bottle of wine. I'm already on the list of two Mark Harold wines, and I knew their cost before I signed up!

I'm guessing after the success of LM, that's the new game plan.

I don't know, but they're making a lot more wine than L&M.

I was on the Blaniet, L&M, & Sloan list, and asked to be removed from all of them. Somewhere you just have to draw the line, as TERPS said: A new high end winery comes up every week in Napa. I think its starting to get very late in the game for most of these new wineries.

Besides, when you finally wake up and recognize the total amount you paid for fermented grape juice, in lieu of a nice monthly annuity, you may realize that all these wineries were having a field day with your future!

I think when you look at the big picture it's not the inexpensive wines that put Napa Valley on the map...it's the high end ones... I also think when you make less than 1000 cases per year your cost to produce off the scale... I also think that it's guys like Mark Herold and other small wine-makers are the ones that will keep pushing the bar higher for the guys who take short cuts to wine making. I don't know much about his new wine Ardore, but if it's a $200.00 bottle of wine...good for them...I will drink my less expensive wine during the week and save the good wine for that special day.

Cheers..

The problem is when you have 50 wineries that produce "special day wine" the supply far exceeds the demand.

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Originally posted by gfoster:
I think when you look at the big picture it's not the inexpensive wines that put Napa Valley on the map...it's the high end ones... I also think when you make less than 1000 cases per year your cost to produce off the scale... I also think that it's guys like Mark Herold and other small wine-makers are the ones that will keep pushing the bar higher for the guys who take short cuts to wine making. I don't know much about his new wine Ardore, but if it's a $200.00 bottle of wine...good for them...I will drink my less expensive wine during the week and save the good wine for that special day.

Cheers..

gfoster Welcome to the Wine Spectator Forums!

Yes, Napa Valley Wineries have been making quality wines for years, but they were only charging $35/$40 per bottle. Pricing has outstripped inflation, by far! CPA's, Investment Bankers, Healthcare professionals, and Business Executives have moved to Napa, making small production wines at abnormally high prices, which capitalizes into property value increases. Now that's a great business, but to the detriment of many long termed wine collectors, as it forces all wine prices to increase.

SE, Harlan, L&M, and other outrageously priced Cabernet, have not been good for many wine collectors, but only good for the owners of those properties. If Ardore prices in a reasonable manner, I wouldn't mind giving it a try, but I'm not interested purchasing a bottle that hasn't ever been released or reviewed, at $100+ per bottle.

Has Ardore even been reviewed by Wine Spectator, Wine Advocate, Steve Tanzer, etc. or have to tasted Ardore? Are you connected or acquainted with Ardore, gfoster?

I think its a VERY safe bet that their cab wine will be 100 plus a bottle.

This alone makes me willing to pay $300 plus for it:

"Its bottle has been custom-made in France by Saver Glass to the Celani family’s high standards, with a luxurious magnum size. This is the largest custom designed 750ml bottle that Saver Glass has ever produced."

BFD

This is just off the top of my head wineries that are already making 100 plus dollar bottles of wine, Opus, Harlan, Araujo, Grace, Arietta, Merus, Screaming Eagle, David Arthur, Caymus, Chappallet, Insignia, Shafer, Bond, Gemstone, Dalla Valle, Scarecrow, Rubicon, Colgin, Sloan, L& M, Staglin, Buccella, Pahlmeyer, Aubert, Stags Leap, Diamond Creek, Verite, Blankiet, Lewis, Jones, Spottswoode. I am sure there are many more that I missed also. I think there are plenty of luxury wines on the market. I am just not so sure that the public can support so many of them. I am seeing more of the so called mailing list only wines starting to show up more and more at wine shops in my area.

I find it easier to pass on a lot of these wines, as I think there are too many overpriced Cali cabs. I find few of them worth the freight.

I never understood how the same people scream about 05 Bordeaux wines being "outrageous!!" "obscene!!", but will happily plunk down $150 or $200 for a mediocre wine from California.

I love all this feedback...I'm not connected to any of these wines...but, I always support the small wine-makers... They're like the small corner store to me that still cares...being a banker by trade, I don't buy wine for the investment, but just as I look at track records on all investments...when a wine-maker gets top
scores for the past 7 years...and by that I don't mean 90-91's...this guy gets 95-97's... That keeps my attention... I have other small wine productions that I buy from...Portfolio is another one...I was turned on to Mark Herold by the Dean and Deluca's wine staff. Cheers

Call me a lemming, I signed up. Got an email in response from Gary Burkart asking how I heard about the wine.

Mark Herold is consulting and making wine for a handful of wineries these days. You should be easily able to get your fair share of his wines.

So I asked Gary what the price would be and this is his response.

"Not yet....but, due to all the overhead and only 610 cases the first year it will be above the 125 mark"

So less excitement them Maybach but more money???

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Originally posted by seanr7:
Call me a lemming, I signed up.

So Sean, where did you go to sign up? When I go to the website all I get is a blank brown page.

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Originally posted by Foghorn:

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Originally posted by seanr7:
Call me a lemming, I signed up.

So Sean, where did you go to sign up? When I go to the website all I get is a blank brown page.

I went to the link in the first post. If you want to you can PM me your info on WD and I will sign you up.

Hopefully I'm already 10+ years out on the waiting list.

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Originally posted by seanr7:
If you want to you can PM me your info on WD and I will sign you up.

Ya right. What do you take me for, one of the usual WS Forum buffoons? Next thing I'll see is more spam than the computer can handle. No thanks.

Like I said before: They must want people to sign up for their list who don't care what they pay for a bottle of wine. I'm already on the list of two Mark Harold wines, and I knew their cost before I signed up! Beside, Adore makes four wines, and I don't need more expense to my wine budget! Pass

BTW---Just how big is the biggest 750 bottle? It seems as if all Mark Herold wines are in special bottles! I've never heard of a 750 bottle the size of a magnum!

Received a card from Celani yesterday mentioning their innaugural release was available for purchase.

Here are their 750ml bottles and prices:

2005 Ardore, Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon $175
2005 Celani Family Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon $80
2006 Celani Family Vinyard Chardonnay $35

I got an email this morning stating they had sold out in 48 hours but do have allocations available for those who joined their list.

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posted by Don P---I got an email this morning stating they had sold out in 48 hours but do have allocations available for those who joined their list.
2005 Ardore, Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon $175
2005 Celani Family Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon $80
2006 Celani Family Vinyard Chardonnay $35

Sold out in 48 hours, but have allocations for those who joined their list? $175 per bottle for a debut wine that I can't find a professional review for? ---Pass!

Can I just buy the big-ass, fabulously-etched bottle?

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Originally posted by sydthesquid:
Can I just buy the big-ass, fabulously-etched bottle?

sydthesquid----Yes you can; but remember Haut Brion, Lafite, Latour, Margaux, & Mouton have been around for a few hundred years and they never charged $175 for a bottle till the 1990's, while Ardore hasn't even been professionally reviewed. Rather presumptuous, isn't it?

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Originally posted by latour67:
sydthesquid----Yes you can; but remember Haut Brion, Lafite, Latour, Margaux, & Mouton have been around for a few hundred years and they never charged $175 for a bottle till the 1990's, while Ardore hasn't even been professionally reviewed. Rather presumptuous, isn't it?

Yes it is latour. Those stinking French have be underpricing their wine all of these years and all of a sudden they want to gouge us for a plain Jane bottle! I want an engrave bottle of overpriced first growth!

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Originally posted by latour67:

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Originally posted by sydthesquid:
Can I just buy the big-ass, fabulously-etched bottle?

sydthesquid----Yes you can; but remember Haut Brion, Lafite, Latour, Margaux, & Mouton have been around for a few hundred years and they never charged $175 for a bottle till the 1990's, while Ardore hasn't even been professionally reviewed. Rather presumptuous, isn't it?

latour67 - I like you alot, but if I had a buck for every time you bellyached about this exact same thing, I could buy a case of this wine.

They'll sell it all. Every last drop.

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Originally posted by latour67:

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Originally posted by sydthesquid:
Can I just buy the big-ass, fabulously-etched bottle?

sydthesquid----Yes you can; but remember Haut Brion, Lafite, Latour, Margaux, & Mouton have been around for a few hundred years and they never charged $175 for a bottle till the 1990's, while Ardore hasn't even been professionally reviewed. Rather presumptuous, isn't it?

Yes! That's why I just want the bottle (the biggest 750 the company has ever made, no less!) and not the wine.

Ouch! I'll try to translate into words easier to understand, while apologizing for not being clear!

I find this issue of abhorrent pricing from a debut winery, who's wine has never been professionally reviewed by WS or WA, rather presumptuous! Furthermore, even the best known wines in the World, for centuries no less, the Bordeaux First Growths, have been surpassed in their pricing arrogance by this American upstart!

sydthesquid--If you must have the biggest , buy this bottle and hope you get the best wine possible, which should be at the very least equal to Kamen, Kobalt, Buccella, Merus, or other Herold made wines!

Every Mark Herold wine I have ever had was a winner. Even in off vintages. Not sure I would be a buyer when Merus is readily available for $100-$120 and is affrigginmazing.

I also recently had the 2003 Kobalt....a real stunner in an off vintage and surely a high end QPR. Worth the search.

If you want to experience a fantastic Herrold wine seek out any Harris Estate you can find. Decant for 5 hours and stand back. $75-$110 per.

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Originally posted by latour67:

I find this issue of abhorrent pricing from a debut winery, who's wine has never been professionally reviewed by WS or WA, rather presumptuous! Furthermore, even the best known wines in the World, for centuries no less, the Bordeaux First Growths, have been surpassed in their pricing arrogance by this American upstart!

I think this is a pretty closed-minded approach. Its not like Mark Herold isn't proven - look at your own list of wines that he's made.

And in my mind, your objections are on-par with suggesting that Lebron James shouldn't have been signed to a multi-million dollar deal before he proved himself in collge or the NBA or saying that Nike was crazy to sign up Tiger Woods before he won a tournament on the PGA. Sure - you can shoot for the big-time and fail, but sometimes you score.

There are two schools of thought afloat;

1) is terroir. It does not matter who the winemaker is, but the source of the fruit reigns supreme. The french do not even have a word for 'winemaker'.
2) winemaker fame. Little attention to source and more to who. This seems to be more American.

I subscribe to a little of each. I have seen great sources ruined by inexperienced and short sighted winemakers and I have seen consistent quality year in and out from one source.

Where is as important as who. here the 'Who' is proven, but $175 per? Would it matter if this was Eisele? Sure it would. I did not go to the website so I may be misinformed.

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Originally posted by Golf&Pinot Nut:

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Originally posted by latour67:

I find this issue of abhorrent pricing from a debut winery, who's wine has never been professionally reviewed by WS or WA, rather presumptuous! Furthermore, even the best known wines in the World, for centuries no less, the Bordeaux First Growths, have been surpassed in their pricing arrogance by this American upstart!

I think this is a pretty closed-minded approach. Its not like Mark Herold isn't proven - look at your own list of wines that he's made.

And in my mind, your objections are on-par with suggesting that Lebron James shouldn't have been signed to a multi-million dollar deal before he proved himself in collge or the NBA or saying that Nike was crazy to sign up Tiger Woods before he won a tournament on the PGA. Sure - you can shoot for the big-time and fail, but sometimes you score.

Good Grief GPN, I'm on the mailing list of three of those Herold wines and realize the quality wines that Herold is capable of producing. Once again, it is not Herold's ability for producing quality wines in question, it is the audacity of the debut price of $175 for a new wine which hasn't even been reviewed. I am currently buying three of Mark Herold's wines and none of those wines even approach $175. I doubt Ardore will be significant superior to any of his other productions, but that $175 price tag surely surpasses anything he has ever produced.

I ordered six of the Cab and six of the Adore (which is also a Cab) although I consider those heavy bottles a liability rather than an asset. That is, I would gladly pay $185.00 a bottle not to have to lift those damn things.

Derek

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Originally posted by acaronianasa:
I ordered six of the Cab and six of the Adore (which is also a Cab) although I consider those heavy bottles a liability rather than an asset. That is, I would gladly pay $185.00 a bottle not to have to lift those damn things.

Derek

Alas, as that brilliant financial wizzard, "Pogo" said: "I have met the enemy and he is us!"

Derek, your order really encourages more price increases for the future! I believe there are many wineries that after exhausting sales to the mailing list, no matter how limited, the remainder will be sold at a 50% discount into the retail marketplace thru distributors. This is an injustice to those who show mailing list loyalty, but this is not about loyalty, it is about profit. BTW, the wine you just paid $175 per bottle is Ardore, and not Adore.

I'm not charging enough

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Originally posted by latour67:
sydthesquid--If you must have the biggest , buy this bottle and hope you get the best wine possible, which should be at the very least equal to Kamen, Kobalt, Buccella, Merus, or other Herold made wines!

The reason I want the humongous, custom-made, magnum-sized 750 (with the punt made like the ones in the 1800's!), is that it will be sooooo impressive that I don't need the wine to wow my guests. And I am willing to pay top dollar to get it!!! Who cares if the wine is any good???

The owner of the winery agrees with me :

“The best bottle of Ardore I’ll ever have is an empty one.”
—Tom Celani, Proprietor

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Originally posted by Stefania Wine:
I'm not charging enough

Face it - you just have bottle envy

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Originally posted by latour67:
Good Grief GPN, I'm on the mailing list of three of those Herold wines and realize the quality wines that Herold is capable of producing. Once again, it is not Herold's ability for producing quality wines in question, it is the audacity of the debut price of $175 for a new wine which hasn't even been reviewed. I am currently buying three of Mark Herold's wines and none of those wines even approach $175. I doubt Ardore will be significant superior to any of his other productions, but that $175 price tag surely surpasses anything he has ever produced.

latour67 - you made all of these arguments already several months ago, didn't you?

Maybe it would help if, instead of thinking of it as $175/bottle, if you thought of it as 1/2 the price of L & M!! Its all a matter of your perspective.

By the way, I think it is safe to say that Merus is now "approaching" $175/bottle.