I just got word this afternoon from Vinojoe that the KGBO Auction for this fall has been cancelled. He got word from Irongate, who wants to ship your wine to HDH in Chicago.
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So apparently the LCBO is allowed to do cross-border shipping? Will be interesting to see what taxes they have to pay to the US government for exporting wine into Illinois. 
Not surprised they're canceling it though. Prices have been outrageous and with the sellers and buyers fees and taxes on top of that, you'd have to be insane to buy from them. Cheaper to buy from the US and pay the duty.
Not surprised they're canceling it though. Prices have been outrageous and with the sellers and buyers fees and taxes on top of that, you'd have to be insane to buy from them. Cheaper to buy from the US and pay the duty.
quote:Originally posted by futronic:
Cheaper to buy from the US and pay the duty.
Even better: buy from the US, pay the duty, and then consign it to the KGBO auction. Based on the KGBO hammer prices last year, this would have been a money-making proposition.
How much of the Rudy case was behind the decision to cancel the auction?
The auction was a huge money maker for the LCBO. Was the risk of lawsuits and damage to their reputation for selling fake wines too much for their lawyers to stomach?
The auction was a huge money maker for the LCBO. Was the risk of lawsuits and damage to their reputation for selling fake wines too much for their lawyers to stomach?
I had heard that the gentleman who was responsible foe the success of the auctions over the past few years decided to leave the LCBO. Maybe with his departure the remaining staff couldn't pull it off?
quote:Originally posted by Duojet:
How much of the Rudy case was behind the decision to cancel the auction?
The auction was a huge money maker for the LCBO. Was the risk of lawsuits and damage to their reputation for selling fake wines too much for their lawyers to stomach?
Exactly what I was thinking.
Reading between the lines: Barry O'Brien leaves the lcbo and they have no one else who has a clue on how to run an auction = auction cancelled. In the larger scheme, it doesn't really affect the bottom line anyway and the general consumer and taxpayer could care less.
Fut, don't kid yourself. Most lots sold. Crazy but true.
Irongate has been successfully sending a skid or two to hdh for the past few years.
Fut, don't kid yourself. Most lots sold. Crazy but true.
Irongate has been successfully sending a skid or two to hdh for the past few years.
quote:Originally posted by mangiare:
Reading between the lines: Barry O'Brien leaves the lcbo and they have no one else who has a clue on how to run an auction = auction cancelled. In the larger scheme, it doesn't really affect the bottom line anyway and the general consumer and taxpayer could care less.
I hope you mean John Yoxall (sp?) Barry was a tool. His departure would have made the auction a bigger success.
Agreed. I sat with him at a dinner and couldn't agree more.
However, he, along with Yoxall have departed the lcbo.
However, he, along with Yoxall have departed the lcbo.
quote:Originally posted by mangiare:
Fut, don't kid yourself. Most lots sold. Crazy but true.
I never said the lots didn't sell. I said that the people that bought the lots, in particular, were insane. 35+% after buyers premium and HST? HST charged on top of wine that should have already been charged HST? That's a double-dip ...
I haven't supported the auction in years. LCBO prices on older wines are in the stratosphere. I am thankful I purchased the majority of mine many years ago. And futures? Give me a break. How can newbies expect to afford to build a collection under these circumstances. Very short sighted on the LCBO behalf, but that's unfortunately what we've come to expect with our monopoly. It's a shame that there is little we can do as consumers other than cross boarder shop in trivial amounts. The best we can hope for is to reopen the free trade agreement to allow wine to be imported duty free. (Phew, I feel better already).
My understanding was that it was Yoxall's departure that took the auction capability with it. I also heard from another forumite that it was part of the KGBO strategy that they didn't want the auction competing with Classics, in store Vintages...another example of the high level idiocy.
As for the auction, I found the occasional good buy, even compared to U.S. pricing (landed here) but they were few and far between...and getting fewer .
Anybody planning to go to the TSO auction? I hear the Oakville Trafalgar Hospital auction was cancelled due to CRA clamp downs on appraisal figures (from a friend who was one of the organizers).
It seems the U.S. is increasingly the only viable option for older (and many current) wines.
As for the auction, I found the occasional good buy, even compared to U.S. pricing (landed here) but they were few and far between...and getting fewer .
Anybody planning to go to the TSO auction? I hear the Oakville Trafalgar Hospital auction was cancelled due to CRA clamp downs on appraisal figures (from a friend who was one of the organizers).
It seems the U.S. is increasingly the only viable option for older (and many current) wines.
quote:Originally posted by VinCentric:
It seems the U.S. is increasingly the only viable option for ... wines.
Possibly you could add Quebec. Sad state of affairs.
Even sadder and incredible, there are several hundred bozos working at the LCBO and none of them know anything about running an auction?!?
quote:Originally posted by futronic:quote:Originally posted by mangiare:
Fut, don't kid yourself. Most lots sold. Crazy but true.
I never said the lots didn't sell. I said that the people that bought the lots, in particular, were insane. 35+% after buyers premium and HST? HST charged on top of wine that should have already been charged HST? That's a double-dip ...
I always assumed that restaurants were buying up lots because they can just set their price accordingly. I have made a few ok buys here and there but fewer and fewer options over the years, plus the online bidding function was so spotty that I lost out on lots, including those that were passed altogether...only to immediately email and be told that the lot sold on the floor. Not sure how that works after the auctioneer calls the lot as passed with no bids and starts on the next lot, but maybe I'd have to attend to know. But with only a handful of lots over two days attendance seems like a probable waste of time. And the tax winfall certainly is nice for them but is pretty awful, though I think the vast majority of bottles that I've ended up with had labels that indicated they were purchased in the US in any event.
The LCBO auctions were expensive to stage, and failed miserably to attract foreign bidders (one of the LCBO's stated goals with the auctions).
Fair prices or not, the auctions were the only legal recourse we Ontario residents had to sell wine we didn't want to drink, and which we could not return. Now, we're denied one less paltry liberty by this mean monopoly.
Fair prices or not, the auctions were the only legal recourse we Ontario residents had to sell wine we didn't want to drink, and which we could not return. Now, we're denied one less paltry liberty by this mean monopoly.
quote:Originally posted by on the wine:
Even sadder and incredible, there are several hundred bozos working at the LCBO and none of them know anything about running an auction?!?
Well they know nothing about running a liquor monopoly, which is their only raison d'être, so I can't say I'm surprised there was no one there that knew how to run an auction
Well now how am I going to sell my 2010 first growths??? Maybe its a sign I should just keep them but I doubt I'll still be alive when they are drinkable.
Very disappointed by this. I usually found it an enjoyable event to do to and if you watched closely you could get the occasional deal. What a shame.
Wild. It's OK though. I only went for the free wine and food anyways.
So how does this support consumers in Ontario...how are they to sell their wine in a legal manner?
Just seems insane that the LCBO would not facilitate this type of an option as it makes them tonnes of money.
Once again....logic, planning and any sense of intellect is absent from the LCBO
Just seems insane that the LCBO would not facilitate this type of an option as it makes them tonnes of money.
Once again....logic, planning and any sense of intellect is absent from the LCBO
LCBO senior leadership is lacking intelligence. Look at the CEO. He drove HBC into the ground. Only the LCBO looks to hire failed business leaders for its top talent.
It boggles my mind that, 5 years ago, the LCBO didn't either white label or have a subdomain on Winebid. Pure peer-to-peer wine sales, regulated/overseen, with us setting the prices and the LCBO taking its standard cut. Such an easy decision.
Must remind ourselves for every Apple and Google out there, there's a Nokia or HTC. Sadly.
It boggles my mind that, 5 years ago, the LCBO didn't either white label or have a subdomain on Winebid. Pure peer-to-peer wine sales, regulated/overseen, with us setting the prices and the LCBO taking its standard cut. Such an easy decision.
Must remind ourselves for every Apple and Google out there, there's a Nokia or HTC. Sadly.
Small minded, myopic, bureaucratic, empire builders preoccupied with protecting their own narrow and inward view of their turf.
...oops, forgot control obsessed...
...oops, forgot control obsessed...
Tasting note from highdesert wine with whom I had dinner last week in las vegas...
"1978 Heitz Cabernet Sauvignon, Martha’s Vineyard, Napa Valley
The bottle was pristine, with a high neck fill. The cork was obviously new, with little seepage, and with 1978 stamped on it. There was zero sediment in the bottle, and nothing on the sides of the bottle. How could this be? The wine smelled like a Martha’s Cab should smell, with cedar, mint, mushroom, and ample currant fruit. Does Heitz recork bottles? Was this a Faux bottle with a more current vintage? Still, tasty juice… It was a moderate pair for the gnocchi dish with short ribs. If we still had room, the hanger steak or duck would have been a perfect pairing.
Wine Lines rating: 92"
And an update from me: Just spoke to Heitz. They informed me that they do not recondition, refurbish, or re-cork bottles. Looks like I will be making a call to the LCBO about a suspect auction lot, AGAIN. Last November a won a lot of Puligny Montrachet, and the labels were falling off, one looked like it had been (poorly) re-applied, and the led capsules were loose and wrinkled. It wasn't until later that I noticed that the capsules indicated "chassagne montrachet", while the labels (and the listing) indicated "puligny montrachet". I know that some wineries could substitute one capsule for another if they run out (especially a small winery), or could just mix up capsules, but something didn't seem quite right...except that the wine tasted great and a burgophile who tasted with me thought it was a sound bottle of PM.
"1978 Heitz Cabernet Sauvignon, Martha’s Vineyard, Napa Valley
The bottle was pristine, with a high neck fill. The cork was obviously new, with little seepage, and with 1978 stamped on it. There was zero sediment in the bottle, and nothing on the sides of the bottle. How could this be? The wine smelled like a Martha’s Cab should smell, with cedar, mint, mushroom, and ample currant fruit. Does Heitz recork bottles? Was this a Faux bottle with a more current vintage? Still, tasty juice… It was a moderate pair for the gnocchi dish with short ribs. If we still had room, the hanger steak or duck would have been a perfect pairing.
Wine Lines rating: 92"
And an update from me: Just spoke to Heitz. They informed me that they do not recondition, refurbish, or re-cork bottles. Looks like I will be making a call to the LCBO about a suspect auction lot, AGAIN. Last November a won a lot of Puligny Montrachet, and the labels were falling off, one looked like it had been (poorly) re-applied, and the led capsules were loose and wrinkled. It wasn't until later that I noticed that the capsules indicated "chassagne montrachet", while the labels (and the listing) indicated "puligny montrachet". I know that some wineries could substitute one capsule for another if they run out (especially a small winery), or could just mix up capsules, but something didn't seem quite right...except that the wine tasted great and a burgophile who tasted with me thought it was a sound bottle of PM.
Reminds me of the time I asked Yoxall for provenance information on a specific bottle, only to be informed that "in this market, frauds/fakes are not a problem".
quote:Originally posted by AML:
Reminds me of the time I asked Yoxall for provenance information on a specific bottle, only to be informed that "in this market, frauds/fakes are not a problem".
I think the vast majority of what I've ended up with over the years was not initially purchased from the LCBO, not that one could not fake LCBO labels or re-fill an LCBO-sold bottle, but might make it a little easier to identify. The Heitz was tasty but hardly what I expected from a wine that old. Perfect fill level, new cork (squaky as the corkscrew went in), zero sediment in the liquid, zero sediment on the side of the bottle.
quote:Originally posted by Machine:quote:Originally posted by AML:
Reminds me of the time I asked Yoxall for provenance information on a specific bottle, only to be informed that "in this market, frauds/fakes are not a problem".
I think the vast majority of what I've ended up with over the years was not initially purchased from the LCBO, not that one could not fake LCBO labels or re-fill an LCBO-sold bottle, but might make it a little easier to identify. The Heitz was tasty but hardly what I expected from a wine that old. Perfect fill level, new cork (squaky as the corkscrew went in), zero sediment in the liquid, zero sediment on the side of the bottle.
The message to the news media was that the LCBO has the transaction records for any LCBO purchase. I'm surprised they weren't called out for that because the banks (debit) and credit card issuers do NOT share personally-identifiable purchase data with retailers. The only way the LCBO would know if you purchased X bottles of wine ABC is if they had a paper or digital order (e.g. VSO, Classics). Hence, provenance is sketchy, at best, for product purchased at LCBO auction.
As for the trophy lots, I was told by a person who worked on the auctions that for many of the wines, there were more bottles at auction than imported into the province -- e.g. SQN and DRC. The LCBO looked away from provenance because it got a huge 32% cut on sale. Don't ask, don't tell.
Emailing Christine now...will let you know how this goes.
After getting back to me to say that someone was dealing with my inquiry on potentially bogus bottles of 1978 Heitz Martha's, I have heard nothing for a month, despite following up a week ago. Followed up with another email today.
quote:Originally posted by VinCentric:
Anybody planning to go to the TSO auction? I hear the Oakville Trafalgar Hospital auction was cancelled due to CRA clamp downs on appraisal figures (from a friend who was one of the organizers).
I did register for the TSO auction but have since had a work trip come up that lands me back in Toronto at 8pm that night, so unlikely I will make it. However, the TSO Auction Catalogue landed in my inbox last week and to your point about appraised values, I was struck by how much higher estimates were this time round. If lots sell for these prices, no bargains to be found here.
quote:Originally posted by VinT:quote:Originally posted by VinCentric:
Anybody planning to go to the TSO auction? I hear the Oakville Trafalgar Hospital auction was cancelled due to CRA clamp downs on appraisal figures (from a friend who was one of the organizers).
I did register for the TSO auction but have since had a work trip come up that lands me back in Toronto at 8pm that night, so unlikely I will make it. However, the TSO Auction Catalogue landed in my inbox last week and to your point about appraised values, I was struck by how much higher estimates were this time round. If lots sell for these prices, no bargains to be found here.
Indeed, I guess this is an evening on which to overspend for charity.
I reckon the hammer prices will be even more stupid than usual with the absence of the LCBO auction.
I would be curious to see what the starting bids will be like. I'd be interested in a few lots, but it won't take long for the pricing to skyrocket into lunacy.
Pass
quote:Originally posted by sunnylea57:
Pass
I've been thinking the same, since the cancellation of the KGBO auction. Still curious to hear how extreme the bidding goes if any forumites attend.
I'll respond to a couple things on this post on behalf of my company, Iron Gate.
First, the taxes and duties for shipping wine to the US is less than 1%. I know, it blew us away too when we found out. We have been shipping to the US for many years and the process is simple. All in, with shipping and duties, you're looking at about $6.50 per bottle. The sale transaction takes place outside of the LCBO jurisdiction and is therefore perfectly legal.
Our experience with HDH has been awesome. 7-8 auctions a year, high return (almost always above the mid), fast paying and a 10% currency bump. Plus they're great people to deal with. I can tell you first hand that clients are getting as much or more selling in the US and I know because I have been collecting ALL the LCBO sell data since 2007....every lot.
Second, the TSO auction tonight will be very busy in lieu of any other auctions this year. You'll pay a little more but there's no tax or premium so that's 32.2% off the final number in comparison to a commercial auction.
Lastly, the LCBO auction died when Barry left/was fired. No protege had ever been developed I suspect because it was a very low paying position (Yoxall's) with no benefits and a one year contract. $20 an hour clerks can't run a complicated auction. The only downside is that there is nowhere for restaurants to buy for this holiday season.
First, the taxes and duties for shipping wine to the US is less than 1%. I know, it blew us away too when we found out. We have been shipping to the US for many years and the process is simple. All in, with shipping and duties, you're looking at about $6.50 per bottle. The sale transaction takes place outside of the LCBO jurisdiction and is therefore perfectly legal.
Our experience with HDH has been awesome. 7-8 auctions a year, high return (almost always above the mid), fast paying and a 10% currency bump. Plus they're great people to deal with. I can tell you first hand that clients are getting as much or more selling in the US and I know because I have been collecting ALL the LCBO sell data since 2007....every lot.
Second, the TSO auction tonight will be very busy in lieu of any other auctions this year. You'll pay a little more but there's no tax or premium so that's 32.2% off the final number in comparison to a commercial auction.
Lastly, the LCBO auction died when Barry left/was fired. No protege had ever been developed I suspect because it was a very low paying position (Yoxall's) with no benefits and a one year contract. $20 an hour clerks can't run a complicated auction. The only downside is that there is nowhere for restaurants to buy for this holiday season.
TSO auction last night was lighter than expected. Managed to get a lot of good deals when you consider there's nothing over the hammer. We're looking to do an online TSO auction in the spring and I'm suggesting they take the most if not all online in the coming years.
Thanks for the info Warren. Hmmm now I wish I'd put in a few bids for the TSO!
quote:Originally posted by Machine:
After getting back to me to say that someone was dealing with my inquiry on potentially bogus bottles of 1978 Heitz Martha's, I have heard nothing for a month, despite following up a week ago. Followed up with another email today.
Still getting complete silence from the LCBO on this. It has been two months since my first inquiry, I guess the issue of selling fake bottles at auction is not something that the LCBO cares very much about.