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Originally posted by snipes:
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Originally posted by Danyull:
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Originally posted by snipes:
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Originally posted by Danyull:
Which Japanese knives do you own?
The makers that see regular rotation of various degrees are Konosuke Fujiyama, Moritaka, Hiromoto and just picked up a Kohetsu. All blue or super blue steel. Gyutos and pettys mostly. Are you into Japanese knives Danyull?
Who makes gyutos in blue steel? Seems like a waste. Simply the wrong match-up of blade shape, material and technique. Not challenging whether it's true, I'm just curious as to understanding why they would.
Quite a few makers do actually. I can't say I've ever heard that sentiment, not challenging whether some people believe it, but can't say I've ever heard it expressed. Why do you feel this way and what steel type do you feel would be more appropriate for a western market where many use that type knife and geometry for the majority of their tasks?
What japanese knives do you own? I visited the Aritsugu store in Kyoto last year and I thought it was pretty amazing that he's a 17th generation blade maker and is still incredibly passionate about blades. I drooled over his counter for about an hour but unfortunately couldn't afford most of what's in his store. Cash only and the average blade price for what I was looking for was in the four digits.
I'd love to order a honyaki kiritsuke someday but I feel like I would dishonor the tradition of the knive. Plus it's incredibly difficult to use. I'd just mount it in a nice case or something.
I imagine I'd break the tip off of a kiritsuke within the first year, but can we agree that this blade shape and function is similar to a gyuto? Plenty of kiritsuke knives in blue steel as well.
Great comments snipes! Love the discussion.
The various Japanese carbon steels that are typically used are engineered to be very hard as to produce a very sharp and roll-resistant edge. However they're not very flexible or wear-resistant actually due to the high-carbon content. A Western style knife made from stainless steel is much more durable overall while not being able to take quite the edge. So you can do things like pound garlic with the side, cut through cartilage and bone in a chicken, cut citrus, coarse chop lots of root vegetables, etc. You could seriously damage a Japanese-style knife doing these very common things.
Well anyway, that's why I personally would not buy a carbon-steel gyuto. I use my Henckels or my dexter cleaver for that stuff and it works perfectly.
The blade shapes in Japanese cooking are designed also for a straight push-cut or a long drawing-style slice. If you look at very traditionally made knives likes the kiritsuke, nakiri, traditionally shaped santoku, the blades have a 0 degree arc on the blade so they're completely straight and parallel with the cutting board. One cannot and should not use rocking cutting motions like what a Western style chef's knife is designed for. Also most Japanese-knives are single-beveled. One side will be ground to anywhere from 12-18 degrees and the other side will be as close to 0 as possible to make more of a chisel point. Western knives are ground double-bevel anywhere from 15-30 degrees on both sides to form a wedge. This actually makes cutting tall and firm vegetables like a turnip or parsnip straight actually pretty hard as your knife will naturally drift away from the direction of the bevel if you're not used to it.
A good example of some of the stuff that I talked about is if you look at Shun's line-up of knives. They're designed for Western cooking but with Japanese aesthetics. Their santoku, nakiri, and kiritsuke all have an edge radius and are designed for people who will inevitably roll-cut with them rather than exclusively push-cut. They are also double-ground, which would never be done by a traditional maker but make it far easier to maintain and use.
So as a disclaimer, I think Shun knives for the personal kitchen are fantastic. They have great fit and finish, use quality steel, and will surpass the performance of most non-artisan Western knife manufacturers.
But related to my comment about the kiritsuke, it's really not meant for the average chef. Buying the Shun version is really just buying a stylized gyuto. It is indeed beautiful, I've handled the Shun version a few times, but it's the freeware version of the real thing. Also, the kiritsuke was the tradition and the right of only the head chef of a Japanese restaurant. The average kaiseki chef owns about 27-32 different knives but only the head chef was allowed to use one in the kitchen as it was a symbol of mastery over all the other knives. As an analogy to what this means, if you're impressed with the knife skills of sushi chefs, they're typically regarded as the LEAST skilled among Japanese chefs in regards to knifework because they only use 3 types of knives.
Anyway, most people don't care about all this kind of stuff, and that's fine. I just happen to care and it doesn't really matter to me if someone subscribes to it or not but hope that was helpful.
