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Knives

T tpewinedrinkerMember
quote:
Originally posted by snipes:
quote:
Originally posted by TPEwinedrinker:
Bloodroot 6" black maple & brass pin boning knife, made from Saw-blade at 64 HRC. Just a gorgeous piece.


Nice! Shoot I could have driven up there and picked it up for you. They make some good looking stuff.

I actually want to make a visit to their factory. I love what they are doing.
D danyullMember
There are a lot of cool American smiths making some interesting pattern welded kitchen knives these days. Nick Anger, Isaiah Schroeder, Greg Cimms, Devin Thomas, etc.

I just got my new 300mm Jikko Sakimaru in ginsan steel rehandled in Koa and mammoth tooth with a figured koa saya.

Looking to commission a Damasteel PM steel k-tip gyuto to see how the steel performs. There's a guy in Australia that's been making some really nice knives from it so I'm curious about its performance relative to other PM steels that the Japanese smiths have been using.
M maverickMember
Here is their site: http://www.newwestknifeworks.com

Nothing, outside of the pretty handles, which I would bet are actually comfortable, is priced competitively. I don't have to jump and dance at every new steel that comes out. It's just too easy to find really good knives much less expensive. Maybe I just don't appreciate spending that kind of money. I've been through that fire-fight topic before. Price doesn't equal skill.
quote:
What makes them over priced?
D danyullMember
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick:
Here is their site: http://www.newwestknifeworks.com

Nothing, outside of the pretty handles, which I would bet are actually comfortable, is priced competitively. I don't have to jump and dance at every new steel that comes out. It's just too easy to find really good knives much less expensive. Maybe I just don't appreciate spending that kind of money. I've been through that fire-fight topic before. Price doesn't equal skill.
quote:
What makes them over priced?


I think they're actually priced cheaper than other knives using similar grades of stainless steel. Hattori's Cowry-X steel blades are in the 700-900 range. Sukenari's ZDP-189s start in the $500 range. Even a small Spyderco ZDP-189 blade is like $300.

You have to compare apples to apples. An old-school $50 carbon-steel Sabatier I'm sure would cut just as well if not better. But will have lower wear-resistance, toughness, stain resistance and will require far more maintenance. For a cook on a budget, obviously that'd be the way to go.

But your assertion that they are way over-priced seems more based on your willingness to spend vs them being over-priced relative to other knives with similar construction.

Price of course does not equal skill, but that has nothing to do with whether something is over-priced or not. In this situation, it seems to reflect the cost of materials. You can disagree with whether a home cook really needs Mauviel and La Cornue om their kitchens, but that's a separate argument from over/under pricing.
S snipesMember
I'm with Maverick on this one. Way overpriced for a knife from a maker with no track record. He's a serial tinkerer / inventor who's claim to fame is being the ex World Record holder for longest frisbee toss.

The knife is obviously aimed at the Henkels/Wustorf crowd and by talking up the exotic steel, aggressive lines and color schemes how can't it be twice better than those products since he's charging double the price.
D danyullMember
quote:
Originally posted by snipes:
I'm with Maverick on this one. Way overpriced for a knife from a maker with no track record. He's a serial tinkerer / inventor who's claim to fame is being the ex World Record holder for longest frisbee toss.

The knife is obviously aimed at the Henkels/Wustorf crowd and by talking up the exotic steel, aggressive lines and color schemes how can't it be twice better than those products since he's charging double the price.


I think with any luxury product you're going to get diminishing returns on investment. Is a $200 cabernet going to be twice as good as a $100 cabernet? Is Chateau Margaux twice as good as Chateau Palmer?

The best analogy would be a no-name winemaker making a $150 cabernet from To Kalon fruit. Would we say that that wine is way over-priced? The fruit is from a top vineyard but the producer is unknown.

It's probably going to be better than like a big name $75 wine with ok fruit like Silver Oak Alexander but it won't be twice as good. It's also not going to be as good as a famous producer like Schrader's To Kalon but it will also be half the price.
S snipesMember
quote:
The best analogy would be a no-name winemaker making a $150 cabernet from To Kalon fruit. Would we say that that wine is way over-priced? The fruit is from a top vineyard but the producer is unknown.


Yes we would. Did he have to pay a premium for the raw materials? Yep. Doesn't mean that the finished product will be worth a $h!t.

You can charge a premium for craftsmanship or expertise.

Let me flip it around, as I'm sure you know Kiyoshi Kato's knives go for $600-1000 if you are one of the lucky ones who can find and snatch one up before the next guy.
Can the young apprentice blacksmith who decides to work with White #2 like the Master realistically expect to get $300 for his early work? Of course not, the only thing in common between the two is the base material they both started with.

My point is there is always a cost of materials, just like with the grapes and raw bar stock. Does he need to charge $300 make a profit? Maybe. It's still way overpriced for what you get.

I won't even touch on the merits of producing such knife and then leaving the owner without a realistic means to sharpen it. On the plus side I guess it will last twice as long before it's dull.
D danyullMember
quote:
Originally posted by snipes:
quote:
The best analogy would be a no-name winemaker making a $150 cabernet from To Kalon fruit. Would we say that that wine is way over-priced? The fruit is from a top vineyard but the producer is unknown.


Yes we would. Did he have to pay a premium for the raw materials? Yep. Doesn't mean that the finished product will be worth a $h!t.

You can charge a premium for craftsmanship or expertise.

Let me flip it around, as I'm sure you know Kiyoshi Kato's knives go for $600-1000 if you are one of the lucky ones who can find and snatch one up before the next guy.
Can the young apprentice blacksmith who decides to work with White #2 like the Master realistically expect to get $300 for his early work? Of course not, the only thing in common between the two is the base material they both started with.

My point is there is always a cost of materials, just like with the grapes and raw bar stock. Does he need to charge $300 make a profit? Maybe. It's still way overpriced for what you get.

I won't even touch on the merits of producing such knife and then leaving the owner without a realistic means to sharpen it. On the plus side I guess it will last twice as long before it's dull.


My question to Maverick was basically "is your opinion based on performance or simply personal opinion on price divorced of materials/performance". The point being there is a floor to the pricing when certain materials are used. Whether or not it's "worth it" is a separate discussion when comparing apples to apples. To make a To Kalon wine, there will always be a price floor simply to make it because Andy Beckstoffer uses a very specific pricing model for how he sells grapes. You'll never see a $50 To Kalon Cabernet just as you would never see a $150 Richebourg or Musigny. The cost of materials is just too high. One can think a $400 Musigny is over-priced in GENERAL, relative to the price of other quality Burgundies and other pinots and that's fine. But the apples to apples comparison is that it's not over-priced relative to other Musigny wines, which is what I think the real comparison is.

The main difference in your example with Kato knives though in that example is that Shirogami steel needs to be forged so the skill of the smith is paramount as the base material is quite cheap vs PM steel is sintered and sold in bar stock to be shaped. There's no forging involved. The amount of skill required to make a PM steel knife is vastly different as they are basically just shaping and grinding vs actually forging the knife. The biggest cost is material. I looked into having a Damasteel PM damascus knife custom-made and just the bar stock cost was $300ish.

If your argument is simply "it's over-priced relative to the quality of $75 knives" then that logic should also inform us that every wine over $100 also fits into that category of being "over-priced". It's a different argument.

I'm simply saying that it's cheap for a knife made from high-end PM steel.
S snipesMember
I'll quit now because at this point I think we are just talking semantics. BUT..

quote:
If your argument is simply "it's over-priced relative to the quality of $75 knives" then that logic should also inform us that every wine over $100 also fits into that category of being "over-priced". It's a different argument.
That's not what I'm saying and I disagree on the $100 wine comment <see craftmanship and experience above>

I'm simply saying that it's cheap for a knife made from high-end PM steel.
no disagreement here.



I look forward to continuing this conversation one day over a glass and a meal.
D danyullMember
quote:
Originally posted by snipes:
I'll quit now because at this point I think we are just talking semantics. BUT..

quote:
If your argument is simply "it's over-priced relative to the quality of $75 knives" then that logic should also inform us that every wine over $100 also fits into that category of being "over-priced". It's a different argument.
That's not what I'm saying and I disagree on the $100 wine comment <see craftmanship and experience above>

I'm simply saying that it's cheap for a knife made from high-end PM steel.
no disagreement here.



I look forward to continuing this conversation one day over a glass and a meal.


Happy to!
G g-manMember
quote:
Originally posted by Danyull:
quote:
Originally posted by snipes:
I'll quit now because at this point I think we are just talking semantics. BUT..

quote:
If your argument is simply "it's over-priced relative to the quality of $75 knives" then that logic should also inform us that every wine over $100 also fits into that category of being "over-priced". It's a different argument.
That's not what I'm saying and I disagree on the $100 wine comment <see craftmanship and experience above>

I'm simply saying that it's cheap for a knife made from high-end PM steel.
no disagreement here.



I look forward to continuing this conversation one day over a glass and a meal.


Happy to!


more importantly

which knife do you use to cut ghost chili peppers?
B bhaukMember
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick:
Stuff from "New West Knifeworks" is still way over-priced even when it's on sale. They do however, make pretty stuff.


Now I know you just blow stuff out of your behind. I know several world class hunters that have used the JH Forager and thought it was a good knife and worth the money.

Sorry not everyone is a fake environmentalist and vegan like yourself. What is your favorite knife Maverick?

I was asking an honest question and you dive in with your drivel as always. A constructive answer would be nice.
M maverickMember
Go fuck yourself. How's that for constructive? It was as honest as I could get.


Danyull ... Materials and workmanship all being equal, every maker having the same access to materials, and workmanship being a term subject to opinion ... I believe that outside of their very pretty handles, I can get other high-quality knives for considerably less $$$. Performance is based, in my opinion, by the sharpness at the time and who did the sharpening. How thin is the blade to get a quality of sharpness. How thick is the edge for it to be a laser or a bone-breaker. Many different 8" to 10" gyutos that may look identical to some will perform differently in any given chef's hands. As I said before, good steels have been around for a good long while. The newest flavor of the month doesn't get much notice from me. For the price of "New West KnifeWorks" knives, if I had to spend that much ... I'd get something Japanese. I can't even give you an example because I wouldn't spend that much. It's a tool, like a wrench, screwdriver or hammer. It works or it doesn't (objective). Wine is not a tool. It is more like entertainment (subjective). Apples vs. Oranges.
G g-manMember
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick:

Danyull ... Materials and workmanship all being equal, every maker having the same access to materials, and workmanship being a term subject to opinion ... I believe that outside of their very pretty handles, I can get other high-quality knives for considerably less $$$. Performance is based, in my opinion, by the sharpness at the time and who did the sharpening. How thin is the blade to get a quality of sharpness. How thick is the edge for it to be a laser or a bone-breaker. Many different 8" to 10" gyutos that may look identical to some will perform differently in any given chef's hands. As I said before, good steels have been around for a good long while. The newest flavor of the month doesn't get much notice from me. For the price of "New West KnifeWorks" knives, if I had to spend that much ... I'd get something Japanese. I can't even give you an example because I wouldn't spend that much. It's a tool, like a wrench, screwdriver or hammer. It works or it doesn't (objective). Wine is not a tool. It is more like entertainment (subjective). Apples vs. Oranges.


it's not about perceived performance.

he's literally saying that the cost of materials puts a base line on the cost of the product. Others may have better design as you allude to, but the base materials sets the base price.

it's why a weber has a higher base price than a similar shaped grill you buy a lowes. That lid alone typically has an extra 10-15 lbs of steel.
M maverickMember
Just because a tool is made of high-quality/expensive raw materials doesn't mean that it a good tool for the cost. Therein my definition of "over-priced". Just because a steel is new and expensive doesn't make all the previous steels garbage. Just because the "new" steel is expensive doesn't mean any knife made with it is any good. Using the grill example is nice, but doesn't work because the "Weber" name carries some price value. I've seen exact BGE knock-offs, made with the same parts, that were half the price. Michelin used to make the exact same tires for Sears and K-Mart, only putting their nameplates in place of the Michelin.
D danyullMember
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick:
Just because a tool is made of high-quality/expensive raw materials doesn't mean that it a good tool for the cost. Therein my definition of "over-priced". Just because a steel is new and expensive doesn't make all the previous steels garbage.


I don't think I ever made that argument. There are plenty of knives that I would consider over-priced that have expensive materials. For example I think Shun Classics are over-priced because they are more expensive than other similarly priced VG-10 blades and their heat treatment isn't very good so they don't hold an edge well. My guess is that the cost of labor and materials is into their fit and finish which is very good, but relatively little thought into their forging.

On a higher end, I've never been impressed with Nenox blades. Their G-line for example is very pretty and the fit and finish are top notch, but they're a pain to sharpen and it neither takes an edge well nor does it have very good wear-resistance. They're also significantly more expensive than other knives with similar steels like Suisin or Togiharu's INOX line or Masamoto's VG or Molybdenum lines.

I also never said that a newer steel makes old steel garbage. Why would that ever be true? I use my Henckels Pro S on a daily basis and they perform just fine for what I need them to do. They don't hold a particularly good edge, their wear-resistance is pretty low, and I need to use a high angle, but they're good toughness and I won't cry if I put a big chip in it.

But the new stainless steels made through powder metallurgy like R-2, SG2, Cowry-X, ZDP-189, CPM-S35V and Damasteel are OBJECTIVELY better base material for a blade than the old-school Henckels, Wusthof, Sabatier, etc stainless steels. They have better wear-resistance, carbide formation, toughness, and edge-holding. They'll take a better edge and keep that edge longer. Those are performance metrics that are not simply about cutting.

Now, OBVIOUSLY the material isn't the only important factor. Edge angles, edge shape, sharpening quality, user skill, polish, heat treatment, appropriate use etc etc all contribute to the performance of a blade.

For chopping onions, yeah, a Henckels knife will be just fine. For 98% of cooking out there, a Henckels is just fine.

But katsuramuki on a burdock root or usuzukuri on raw flounder fillets? You're not going to get very far with a Henckels. The steel just isn't good enough to get the edge you need. You could try putting an 8/15 asymmetrical angle on a Henckels santoku, you'll probably roll the edge on first contact with the cutting board.

It seems like you've simply set the value bar at where your current skill knife skill utility is at, which is fine. But there are people who:
1) Use specific techniques which require better steel/knives
2) Willing to pay for lower edge angles/longer edge retention
Last edited by danyull
M maverickMember
I've never thought as this as an argument. I'v also not tried to put any words in your mouth. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I don't however, find the performance metrics that you state as being important, relatively important to anyone that is not using their knives on a daily all-day basis. I can't see a regular home-cook type person actually wearing out their knives in less than 10-15 years. If you just want a new cool kitchen knife ... fine. Go for it. I'll understand that. There was a time I had a shaving edge on a Ka-Bar knife. My value bar, LOL, has nothing to do with my skill-set. I'd much rather use a sharp $50 knife than a dull $6,000 knife.
D danyullMember
Well, for example, I've owned my Henckels Pro S santoku since I was 18 so that's exactly 15 years for me. I'm about to retire it because it's 1/2 inch shorter in length and 7/8 inch shorter in height due sharpening. So it can actually be worn out be an average home chef that's not working the line.

But that's not really the point. I'd say the difference is sharpening your knife once a week vs once a month to keep the edge you want. I wouldn't pay $6000 for that, but I might pay $250-350 for that over a $50 knife.

I don't think the real comparison is sharp vs dull. Obviously sharp regardless of the price of the knife. The real comparison is a $100 knife that will stay sharp for 8 hours of cutting vs a $300 knife that will stay sharp for 24 hours of cutting.

And of course those who just like nice things.
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