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quote:
Originally posted by winetarelli:
It is also possible that he is dead and that his blood is the "king's blood" needed for Melissandre to do her work.


hm.... That's a possibility I haven't considered before. It seem unlikely since there is no indication (on the TV show at least) he has king's blood or Melisandre's knowledge of it. In anycase, we'll have to see in 10 months.
quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
quote:
Originally posted by winetarelli:
It is also possible that he is dead and that his blood is the "king's blood" needed for Melissandre to do her work.


hm.... That's a possibility I haven't considered before. It seem unlikely since there is no indication (on the TV show at least) he has king's blood or Melisandre's knowledge of it. In anycase, we'll have to see in 10 months.



I hadn't considered that either. I usually think of Ned Stark as a Lord, so Jon has noble blood but not royal blood.

However, I do recall some references to 'the king in the North,' the area which House Stark ruled, so maybe Jon does actually have royal blood. Hmmm...
There are also rumors he's the son of Robert and Ned's sister or some Targarean and Ned's sister which would make his blood kings blood.

I'm coming around to he will get revived. It's just too big a story shift this late in the process to do. If he is dead how do they bring the white walkers back into the story until they overrun the wall and kill everyone? Does Sir Allister really take a leading role now. He's such a flat, one dimensional character I can't see him being a lead.
quote:
Originally posted by jburman82:
There are also rumors he's the son of Robert and Ned's sister or some Targarean and Ned's sister which would make his blood kings blood.

I'm coming around to he will get revived. It's just too big a story shift this late in the process to do. If he is dead how do they bring the white walkers back into the story until they overrun the wall and kill everyone? Does Sir Allister really take a leading role now. He's such a flat, one dimensional character I can't see him being a lead.


He has to be dead and gone.

The key to defeating the white walkers is the girl with the dragons. Not the Night's watch, they are little more than a bunch of f#@K ups. While people may think her story is going nowhere she will become relevant.
quote:
Originally posted by spo:
quote:
Originally posted by jburman82:
There are also rumors he's the son of Robert and Ned's sister or some Targarean and Ned's sister which would make his blood kings blood.

I'm coming around to he will get revived. It's just too big a story shift this late in the process to do. If he is dead how do they bring the white walkers back into the story until they overrun the wall and kill everyone? Does Sir Allister really take a leading role now. He's such a flat, one dimensional character I can't see him being a lead.


He has to be dead and gone.

The key to defeating the white walkers is the girl with the dragons. Not the Night's watch, they are little more than a bunch of f#@K ups. While people may think her story is going nowhere she will become relevant.


Dont really agree he has to be dead and gone. They have spent so much time buidling his character, more than any other on the show with the possible exception of Danny, I cant see them totally changing course in their story telling.

I agree dragons are probably the key but there are three of them who need riders. If Jon's lineage is Targarean then he could ride one of them making him pretty darn indespensible. The who story is called a song of Fire and Ice which pretty much sums up Jon's parents(Targarean/Stark).

If he is really dead Martin is dick who is only interested in fing with people.
Jburman82, the last 5 seasons of the show have had no problem killing off key character after key character so I don't or didn't see a reason for his death to be any different.The world still goes on and another person enters.

But... I have not read the books and you're comments are interesting. I had not even thought about or realized any of that.

I still think he is dead though... but I thought Stannis would kill the Boltons and Jon Snow would end up in a situation where he had to help Stanis.

I am looking forward to season 6.
quote:
Originally posted by spo:
Jburman82, the last 5 seasons of the show have had no problem killing off key character after key character so I don't or didn't see a reason for his death to be any different.The world still goes on and another person enters.

But... I have not read the books and you're comments are interesting. I had not even thought about or realized any of that.

I still think he is dead though... but I thought Stannis would kill the Boltons and Jon Snow would end up in a situation where he had to help Stanis.

I am looking forward to season 6.


I havent read the books either but I did go down the rabbit hole after the episode. I even listened to a few GOT podcasts. doh
quote:
Originally posted by jburman82:
quote:
Originally posted by spo:
Jburman82, the last 5 seasons of the show have had no problem killing off key character after key character so I don't or didn't see a reason for his death to be any different.The world still goes on and another person enters.

But... I have not read the books and you're comments are interesting. I had not even thought about or realized any of that.

I still think he is dead though... but I thought Stannis would kill the Boltons and Jon Snow would end up in a situation where he had to help Stanis.

I am looking forward to season 6.


I havent read the books either but I did go down the rabbit hole after the episode. I even listened to a few GOT podcasts. doh


There cannot be any spoilers anymore as the show has reached and/or passed the books in some spots now.

Obviously GRRM and the showrunners do not shy away from misdirection and killing characters thought to be important. Stop reading if you are not interested in fan theory, do not want to be told of any book details in case you want to read them and have some surprises and specualtion from the crumbs that have been laid out. As said, there are countless sites and threads where these issues have been discussed for the last 4 years since the last book came out.


The way the books are structured, there is Prologue that often involves minor or never before seen characters in a situation generally not part of the direct narrative that sets forth a scene that is intended to give information that is highly important later in the story. In A Dance With Dragons, the prologue involves Varamyr Sixskins - a skinchanger who we encountered earlier mounted on a snow bear who also controlled other animals. The scene is of his death (following the battle of the wall he is stabbed by a wildling child after he steals the kid's mother's coast and perhaps killed her - I don't recall precisely) - The Prologue is entirely about him warging into one of his wolves as he dies and provides flashbacks of the lessons he learned about skin-changing from his mentor who he ultimatyely kills and his back story. These prologues have purposes in the story and as Bran is getting instruction from Blooraven by the tree, the purpose of this is to give information to the readers on death and warging. In the books, Jon has often seen through Ghost's eyes; tasted what Ghost eas eating etc. just as Arya has seen through cats' eyes and seen what Nymeria and her pack are doing. Jon saying Ghost at the stabbing is for a reason. Jon's ancestry as a secret Targ is relevant

Now - no one knows the details and they may be screwing with us entirely. The movie and books are going to go different routes also I believe. I think there is no doubt in the Books that Jon is going to Warg into Ghost either to heal or bide his time until Mel brings him back in some fashion - In the show, I expect they will skip the Warging as the show seems to hate the wolves and the concept of skin changing and Mel will revive him directly somehow. Into what, I have no idea. So there me be a franken-body, he may be some kind of good wight or red walker instead of a white walker, there may be a new actor, he may be a form of Lady Stoneheart, or it may just be a different version of Jon like White Gandalf. In any event, no one yet knows exactly where the story is going but I am very confident that some form of Jon Snow will be involved going forward whatever that form is.
George R.R. Martin was at the Northwestern football game last Saturday to be honored as a notable alumnus. After the presentation on the field (during which he received a standing ovation), he walked past the home field stands. I was shocked at the reaction of those around me as he walked by. People were falling all over themselves trying to get his picture and screaming his name. There was a Penn State fan sitting in front of me who said he didn't care about the outcome of the game anymore as seeing Martin made his day. I can't remember ever seeing this kind of fan reaction for anyone other than professional athletes or musicians.
quote:
Originally posted by thelostverse:
George R.R. Martin was at the Northwestern football game last Saturday to be honored as a notable alumnus. After the presentation on the field (during which he received a standing ovation), he walked past the home field stands. I was shocked at the reaction of those around me as he walked by. People were falling all over themselves trying to get his picture and screaming his name. There was a Penn State fan sitting in front of me who said he didn't care about the outcome of the game anymore as seeing Martin made his day. I can't remember ever seeing this kind of fan reaction for anyone other than professional athletes or musicians.


Ha. He lives here in Santa Fe and I see him often. He always looks homeless while in Santa Fe.

Santa Fe is a very small community with a lot of celebrities living here but no one pays any attention overall. He bought and renovated the Jean Cocteau cinema which I go to often. He is there often but not too sure people truly know who he is sometimes.
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
Ha. He lives here in Santa Fe and I see him often. He always looks homeless while in Santa Fe.

Santa Fe is a very small community with a lot of celebrities living here but no one pays any attention overall. He bought and renovated the Jean Cocteau cinema which I go to often. He is there often but not too sure people truly know who he is sometimes.

Now tell us when you start reading the books. And oh yeah, please get me a full set of the series to date autographed. Thank you.
Martin confirms what we thought would happen; book 6 will not be out before the TV show resumes. (He blames, among other things, his running of W+A's favorite theater, the Jean Cocteau.)

This means that the show will be spoiling the books (and of course book readers will no longer have inside knowledge.) I personally consider this a good thing because I believe the Martin has lost his way. The show was smart enough to not only push, and reduce, books 4 and 5 together thereby cutting out tons of padding and stalling.
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
Martin confirms what we thought would happen; book 6 will not be out before the TV show resumes. (He blames, among other things, his running of W+A's favorite theater, the Jean Cocteau.)

This means that the show will be spoiling the books (and of course book readers will no longer have inside knowledge.) I personally consider this a good thing because I believe the Martin has lost his way. The show was smart enough to not only push, and reduce, books 4 and 5 together thereby cutting out tons of padding and stalling.


Yup, no surprise here
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Excellent episode last night - no Dorne - amen.


Overall a good episode.

SPOILERS BELOW


Bye, bye, Balon. Good riddance.

Bye, bye, Roose. You deserved a slower, more agonizing death. I hope that Walder Frey doesn't die so quickly.

Hello, Jon Snow. We all knew it was coming, but it still was nice to see.
Well that was fucking great. Besides the kicking ending there were many great scenes. I think the only weak one was Jonathon Pryce's speech, as much as we love to hate him, went on a little too long.

I've meant to mention this seasons ago but I'd like to point out that the interior of the court at Meereen is heavy influenced by Frank Lloyd Wright's 1920's Los Angeles houses. Except for the one room with the pyramidal roof, there's particularly a lot of the Ennis Brown house in set design.
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
i wonder if g martin is going to do one of those.. "and then bran wakes up and realizes it's all a dream"


I think we can safely say no -


Well, that's because the Series finale will end up with Ned Stark waking up from a nightmare, then convincing King Robert to plan a massacre of all the Lannisters in King's Landing and then launch an offensive against Casterly Rock to kill as many Lannisters as they can and bring their gold back to the crown.
Absolutely superb episode. GoT is one of the true treasures of new golden age of television. If it only had the scene between Sansa and Littlefinger it would have been one of the great shows of the series.

It is such an accomplishment for the two writers/producers I can't actually think of anything else that comes close except perhaps in film with The Lord of The Rings. One of my early fears was there would be no way they could keep such a large cast working for so many years and in so many different locations, and yet its been magnificent. Also their extending beyond Martin's work and creating new places and ideas really deserves all the credit they can get.
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
time paradoxes has no place in fantasy worlds not containing merlin.

I don't look at this as time travel; he doesn't really travel in time, but can see and influence things in the past.


yea, but that still causes a time rift and potentially leading to a paradox
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
time paradoxes has no place in fantasy worlds not containing merlin.

I don't look at this as time travel; he doesn't really travel in time, but can see and influence things in the past.


yea, but that still causes a time rift and potentially leading to a paradox


Or because it already happened in the past was it predetermined to happen in the future. Did Bran really change anything? Or did this have to happen since it already happened when Hodor was a boy?
quote:
Originally posted by jburman82:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
time paradoxes has no place in fantasy worlds not containing merlin.

I don't look at this as time travel; he doesn't really travel in time, but can see and influence things in the past.


yea, but that still causes a time rift and potentially leading to a paradox


Or because it already happened in the past was it predetermined to happen in the future. Did Bran really change anything? Or did this have to happen since it already happened when Hodor was a boy?


YES!!
From a poster on dvdtalk.com:
quote:
The girl was screaming into Bran's ear
He can hear it in the dream
He warged Hodor in the dream, connected to Hodor in the cave, into dragging him out of the cave
He began to lose control as they left Hodor at the door
The girl was screaming "Hold the door!"
Bran could hear it while still warging Hodor in the dream
It was the only thing they needed him to do
It was his last purpose
As Hodor died, his last thought was "Hold the door"
Which was connected, through warging, into his own self in the dream
As he died, his last thought was imprinted so hard into the dream of himself, that it took over entirely.
Hodor's last purpose went into his past and became his only purpose.
His only purpose from then on was to make it to that point and hold the door
I don't know if anyone's interested, but I'd like to mention two games based on AGoT. One of my hobbies is boardgaming. The new world of boardgaming is very different from the "roll and move" games, like Monopoly, from our childhood. They are often very thematic and there is a complexity of play. I am linking to the number one board game website--boardgamegeek.com--so if you wish you can see what the games look like.

The first one is A Game of Thrones: The Card Game (Second Edition). This card game features characters, places and events with card art based on the books. (Though sometimes the look does acknowledge the TV show. It can be played one on one or in a multiplayer format. There is a base set, but the way these games are played is by buying monthly chapter packs to build the best challenge deck you can. These "factions" game be one of the major houses, or even the Knight's Watch. There are also tournaments all over the world. This is not an easy game, I'd give it a complexity rating of 7. A one on one game can usually be played in under an hour.

And even harder game, perhaps a rating of 8, is A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition). In this game each player is a faction who is trying to control territory in Westeros. It is best played with 6 and can run about 4 hours. To play you'd really need a full complement of players who are willing to put in that much time. Also it will take about half a dozen times before you really even start to understand the various strategies. However, it is an evocative game that relies on making alliances with other players and them backstabbing them at the right time (Very Game of Throneish.)

Often when an property like a TV show is turned into a game it's almost always a failure--and there are a number of not so good games based on the show--even a not so terrible version of Risk. However, the company that makes both of the games I mentioned, Fantasy Flight Games, has done an excellent job. They also make my favorite boardgame, Battlestar Galatica, which manages to bring out the paranoia of the show (Who's a Cylon, who's a human?) so that you actually feel it during the game.

Oh yeah, this is probably the best boardgame based on wine making, Viticulture.
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
I thought Sundays episode was the weakest of the season by a large amount.
I don't believe there's been a weak episode. Just one or two that aren't great--only very good.


It was still pretty good but still b least favorite of this season - which would still put it towards the top of last season which was the worst . . . my main quibbles are:

A. While I enjoyed the King's Landing action, how is it that Cersei, Jaime et al., had no idea what again where Tommen was? It makes no sense whatsoever - Jaime is LC of the Kingsguard yet all of his men have secretly shuttled Tommen to the HS and now have new armour with the 7 pointed star on it? Really?

B. I generally am bored with Dany (in books and show) and the final scene was simply a repeat of what we have seen time and again -

C. The Tarly, Sam and Gilly scenes were entertaining but went on for too long IMO

D. The Arya and Bran scenes were awesome.
quote:
Originally posted by jburman82:
I just read that season 7 will only be 7 episodes. I thought they were talking about stretching out to 8 seasons, not shortening the ones they had left????? Im guessing its because of huge CGI costs for the final few episodes but who knows.

Actually...

That 7 episode thing comes from an off-handed comment by one of the lesser directors. BUT, it is consistent with a previous rumor that they were going to to 8 seasons with essentially a season 7.1 and 7.2. Typically, GoT is a 10 episode season; the show creators have said there will be about 13 episodes after this season, so that is consistent with season 7 being only 7 episodes long. If this is the case, though, they better not put a full year in between those seasons. Arghh!
quote:
Originally posted by jburman82:
Good stuff. Thanks JC.


HBO has confirmed Episode 9 is named Battle of the Bastards

Episode 10 is named Winds of Winter - the name of the next book. Will the Wall be coming down? Will the Night King and the Walkers and wights get past the Wall some other way? We shall see

Episodes 9 and 10 also directed by the same guy who directed Hardhome last season
How could anyone say that wasn't incredible television??

The scene where Rickon is running towards Jon - sure, we knew exactly how it would end - but tell me it wasn't gripping to the last moment?!

Once Jon was standing alone, and the cavalry was coming for him, the way he owned the moment just before his army arrived was hair-raising.

The battle was the best TV battle scene I've ever watched - and gave Saving Private Ryan or Braveheart a run for its money.

The way Bolton decided to "finish them off" with his army surrounding them was amazing.

That moment that Jon makes his way out of the dead bodies and locks eyes with Bolton.

I could go on.

I get that it was predictable, but the direction of the episode was as good as it gets IMO. Truly fantastic TV.

PS: You know the battle was incredible when the scene with Dany and her dragons is a footnote! We've been waiting, what, 5 years?? For those dragons to kick some ass and they did not disappoint.

Again, amazing TV.
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
So any reactions to last night's episode? Sad what they have done to Jon Snow's character on the show - but whatever. Still an excellent episode

I tend to agree. I think they were really striving for a "girl power" episode but let it get away from them with relation to how itr impacted Jon Snow's character.
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
So any reactions to last night's episode? Sad what they have done to Jon Snow's character on the show - but whatever. Still an excellent episode



I liked Ramsay Bolton's self-effacing comments just before his dog started licking him. Smile Also, enjoyed the irony that was derived from what Bolton had earlier threatened to do to Jon Snow, as well as Sansa's well-deserved smirk.

The superior action scenes are really what make this series so visually impressive, but the writing has proven to be darned good too, especially now that they've run out of book on which to model the events and dialogue.
quote:
Originally posted by Seaquam:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
So any reactions to last night's episode? Sad what they have done to Jon Snow's character on the show - but whatever. Still an excellent episode



I liked Ramsay Bolton's self-effacing comments just before his dog started licking him. Smile Also, enjoyed the irony that was derived from what Bolton had earlier threatened to do to Jon Snow, as well as Sansa's well-deserved smirk.

The superior action scenes are really what make this series so visually impressive, but the writing has proven to be darned good too, especially now that they've run out of book on which to model the events and dialogue.

So you are liking it.
quote:
Originally posted by Bytown Rick:
quote:
Originally posted by Seaquam:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
So any reactions to last night's episode? Sad what they have done to Jon Snow's character on the show - but whatever. Still an excellent episode



I liked Ramsay Bolton's self-effacing comments just before his dog started licking him. Smile Also, enjoyed the irony that was derived from what Bolton had earlier threatened to do to Jon Snow, as well as Sansa's well-deserved smirk.

The superior action scenes are really what make this series so visually impressive, but the writing has proven to be darned good too, especially now that they've run out of book on which to model the events and dialogue.



So you are liking it.


Sure! In fact, you may use a stronger verb and you'd still be right. Smile
So many great things from the "music" before the battle scene, to the final transformation of Sansa the character to Sophie Tucker the actress, to the hotter than usual appearing Emilia Clarke walking up the wings of her lead bomber, and finally an epic battle that was...epic.

Pushed past Battlestar Galatica to become my number two greatest TV drama series of all time.
Great episode. This season has been really, really good.

Yes, it was a little formulaic, but as someone mentioned before, you can't have mindblowing twists on every episode.

Loved Tyrion having the guts to tell Dany that her plan to turn cities to dust wasn't moral.

Loved Mun-Mun breaking down the gate. Wish Jon Snow had a few more giants on his side.

Loved the interaction between Torvald and Ser Davos.

I am willing to forgive Rickon's failure to zig zag. After months in a dungeon, probably being tortured by Ramsay, he may not have been thinking tactically.

I was expecting Lord Umber to turn coat at the last minute, maybe even to save Rickon. But when he didn't, I was glad to see him go.

As for Ghost, well, I figure Jon had him tied up or with a handler because he didn't want him to get killed in the battle. He isn't Grey Wind.
quote:
Originally posted by Rothko:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Not sure about Sansa's character evolution, she is as selfish now as she was in Season 1.


Well, it really makes no sense that she didn't tell Jon Snow about her letter to Littlefinger and that the knights of the Vale were expected to arrive and help.

There's was no guarantee they were coming. Her advice to Jon was sound.
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Not sure about Sansa's character evolution, she is as selfish now as she was in Season 1.

I 100% disagree with this analysis. Selfish? She'd spent who knows how long being raped and tortured by Ramsey Bolton, and she didn't want to go back. She also is working to fulfill her house's destiny.


Yes selfish. I am not minimizing her trauma. However, her half brother Jon, who she treated poorly for her whole life (reflecting her mother's attitude) literally came back from the dead after being betrayed and murdered by his "Brothers" - a fairly significant trauma - and she manipulated him to help her - stating" we must go rescue our brother" - then when it is time to try to do so, she says, oh he is dead already I know Ramsay. What exactly changed? Nothing, she has learned from Littlefinger and adopted his stratagems apparently. She demands they should consult with her, and then when asked her opinion does not offer anything and fails to tell them the most important fact - she had an army waiting in the wings, leading thousands to die. Frankly, I think she wanted both Jon and Rickon dead so that she has no rivals to rule Winterfell.

Sansa has always been one of my least favorite characters in book and show and her smirks with the arrival of the Knights of the Vale and the death of Ramsay did not change my view. Yuck.

With that said, Sophie Turner has done a phenomenal job. No arguments from me on that.
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Rothko:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Not sure about Sansa's character evolution, she is as selfish now as she was in Season 1.


Well, it really makes no sense that she didn't tell Jon Snow about her letter to Littlefinger and that the knights of the Vale were expected to arrive and help.

There's was no guarantee they were coming. Her advice to Jon was sound.


Yet she magically was with them when they did arrive right at Littlefinger's side. This is pure whitewashing of what she did. Even the possibility of them coming could have changed everything
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Rothko:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Not sure about Sansa's character evolution, she is as selfish now as she was in Season 1.


Well, it really makes no sense that she didn't tell Jon Snow about her letter to Littlefinger and that the knights of the Vale were expected to arrive and help.

There's was no guarantee they were coming. Her advice to Jon was sound.


Yet she magically was with them when they did arrive right at Littlefinger's side. This is pure whitewashing of what she did. Even the possibility of them coming could have changed everything

I don't get this. She was in the back, the troops showed up and she joined them. I'm not sure where the magic was.

We are on totally different wavelengths in this regard, so I will stop responding as no one's mind will be changed.
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Rothko:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Not sure about Sansa's character evolution, she is as selfish now as she was in Season 1.


Well, it really makes no sense that she didn't tell Jon Snow about her letter to Littlefinger and that the knights of the Vale were expected to arrive and help.

There's was no guarantee they were coming. Her advice to Jon was sound.


Yet she magically was with them when they did arrive right at Littlefinger's side. This is pure whitewashing of what she did. Even the possibility of them coming could have changed everything

I don't get this. She was in the back, the troops showed up and she joined them. I'm not sure where the magic was.

We are on totally different wavelengths in this regard, so I will stop responding as no one's mind will be changed.


Fair enough. Though I am curious how Sansa apologists explain how her Rickon rescue mission became the giving him up for dead - which was undoubtedly correct albeit heartless.
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Fair enough. Though I am curious how Sansa apologists explain how her Rickon rescue mission became the giving him up for dead - which was undoubtedly correct albeit heartless.

Alright, I'm dragged back in. To me the Rickon issue was a red herring, it would have been nice if he could have been rescued. But I thought she had made clear, in dramatic speeches, that taking back their ancestral house and their title was the main goal,
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:although Episodes 6-8 were a weaker segment of the season

And I don't even accept that! Razz


The Arya stroll through Braavos and Waif attack was lame - surely we can agree on that?


Yep, Waif as Terminator.


Yeah lame. She doesn't even really begin Faceless Man training before she's "complete". LAME.

I think we're porting our 21st century culture a bit to what is supposedly a few hundred years back. Sansa prob didn't speak up in the war council because women weren't supposed to. She hasn't earned the respect of Tormund and Davos and Jon's relationship with her has been testy. There was also no knowledge of how and when the Knights of the Vale would help.

Also if she had told them that the man she requested help from was Littlefinger, one of the men that betrayed Ned Stark, there would probably have been quite the disagreement.

I think she's coming into her own and is far more likable in the show than in the books.
With the way the story lines are developing, I'm gonna say Rhaegar's the father, and Danarys and Jon will form some sort of alliance/marriage. What I'm having trouble seeing at this point is any good fights left. Everyone is going to ally themselves against the Lannisters. They're gonna be slaughtered. What major houses are even left on their side? Besides the Frey's?
quote:
Originally posted by mjraica:
With the way the story lines are developing, I'm gonna say Rhaegar's the father, and Danarys and Jon will form some sort of alliance/marriage. What I'm having trouble seeing at this point is any good fights left. Everyone is going to ally themselves against the Lannisters. They're gonna be slaughtered. What major houses are even left on their side? Besides the Frey's?



The white walkers are the overarching battle still.
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
I guess we now know Jon Snow's origin...


who's the father though?

was it rhaegar or robert

or a little ambigious still?

Yeah I think the father is ambiguous, but I took it that Jon is the probable heir to the Iron Throne.


It shouldn't be ambiguous anymore.

The baby is Jon Snow.

Jon Snow is obviously no longer Ned's bastard.

There were two Kingsguard guarding Lyanna Stark who can only be commanded by the royal family. Nobody but Rhaegar in the royal family has any connection to Lyanna Stark. Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow.

The show is also called Song of Ice and Fire. Jon Snow = Ice, Daenarys Targaryen = Fire. Showdown time.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
I guess we now know Jon Snow's origin...


who's the father though?

was it rhaegar or robert

or a little ambigious still?


Robert is not the father because she was kidnapped before they were married. Also because Robert couldn't command the Kingsguard. If it was Robert's child, the Kingsguard would probably have orders to kill the baby upon delivery and wouldn't be waiting around outside.
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Originally posted by Danyull:
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Originally posted by PD2K:
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Originally posted by g-man:
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Originally posted by PD2K:
I guess we now know Jon Snow's origin...


who's the father though?

was it rhaegar or robert

or a little ambigious still?

Yeah I think the father is ambiguous, but I took it that Jon is the probable heir to the Iron Throne.


It shouldn't be ambiguous anymore.

The baby is Jon Snow.

Jon Snow is obviously no longer Ned's bastard.

There were two Kingsguard guarding Lyanna Stark who can only be commanded by the royal family. Nobody but Rhaegar in the royal family has any connection to Lyanna Stark. Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow.

The show is also called Song of Ice and Fire. Jon Snow = Ice, Daenarys Targaryen = Fire. Showdown time.


Robert could be the father as you dont know the timeline before lyanna was kidnapped by rhaegar.
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Originally posted by g-man:
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Originally posted by Danyull:
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Originally posted by PD2K:
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Originally posted by g-man:
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Originally posted by PD2K:
I guess we now know Jon Snow's origin...


who's the father though?

was it rhaegar or robert

or a little ambigious still?

Yeah I think the father is ambiguous, but I took it that Jon is the probable heir to the Iron Throne.


It shouldn't be ambiguous anymore.

The baby is Jon Snow.

Jon Snow is obviously no longer Ned's bastard.

There were two Kingsguard guarding Lyanna Stark who can only be commanded by the royal family. Nobody but Rhaegar in the royal family has any connection to Lyanna Stark. Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow.

The show is also called Song of Ice and Fire. Jon Snow = Ice, Daenarys Targaryen = Fire. Showdown time.


Robert could be the father as you dont know the timeline before lyanna was kidnapped by rhaegar.


It doesn't make any sense for Robert to be the father.
well he is

because lyanna is the mother.

lyanna was betroth for a while to robert.

one could argue that robert held lyanna on a pedastal and didnt want to sully her until the marriage, which when rhaegar kidnapped her lead to a chase that lead to a few wars.

but she was also a stark and knew an alliance with the barrathean's would mean a great deal of power for the stark family. so she might have had a fling with robert too, even if she did prefer rhaegar later on.

also robert and ned stark were as close as brothers, that statement could have easily been referring to robert, as rhaegar had no such love from ned stark.
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Originally posted by g-man:
well he is

because lyanna is the mother.

lyanna was betroth for a while to robert.

one could argue that robert held lyanna on a pedastal and didnt want to sully her until the marriage, which when rhaegar kidnapped her lead to a chase that lead to a few wars.

but she was also a stark and knew an alliance with the barrathean's would mean a great deal of power for the stark family. so she might have had a fling with robert too, even if she did prefer rhaegar later on.

also robert and ned stark were as close as brothers, that statement could have easily been referring to robert, as rhaegar had no such love from ned stark.


It makes WAY more sense for it to be Rhaegar both contextually and from the plot.

Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert, there's no need to make a love child. She was also a Stark, a family known for their honor and not impulsive and passionate like Robert.

While they were close, they were widely split on whether or not to kill the Targaryen babies. Ned left King's Landing and a rift was created in their friendship due to their disagreements on whether or not to hunt down and kill the babies. Robert approved of the Lannisters slaughtering Elia and her children while Ned was disgusted by it. Hence, Lyanna's dying words to not tell Robert.

Also, if it wasn't Rhaegar's child, he would have ordered the Kingsguard to kill the baby upon birth.
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Originally posted by Danyull:
Ok, but why did the Vale knights claim Jon Snow the King in the North? Their allegiance belongs to the Arryns, not the Starks.

Especially given that Littlefinger is their current regent and not supportive of Jon Snow.

I get the drama, but it doesn't make sense.


Jon Arryn always considered ned stark like a son and actively defied aerys targaryen.

why would they follow another targaryen instead of a stark?

not to mention that lysa (Catelyn's sister) was aso married to jon Arryn before little finger came in and pushed her out of the moon gate.

house stark and house arryn are thoroughly connected by blood and marriages.

also remember that robert was with ned under the protection of jon arryn when the war broke out.

also what lyssa said to ned is still a mystery, but the show did spin it off that way.
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Originally posted by g-man:
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Originally posted by Danyull:
Ok, but why did the Vale knights claim Jon Snow the King in the North? Their allegiance belongs to the Arryns, not the Starks.

Especially given that Littlefinger is their current regent and not supportive of Jon Snow.

I get the drama, but it doesn't make sense.


Jon Arryn always considered ned stark like a son and actively defied aerys targaryen.

why would they follow another targaryen instead of a stark?

not to mention that lysa (Catelyn's sister) was aso married to jon Arryn before little finger came in and pushed her out of the moon gate.

house stark and house arryn are thoroughly connected by blood and marriages.

also remember that robert was with ned under the protection of jon arryn when the war broke out.

also what lyssa said to ned is still a mystery, but the show did spin it off that way.


Dude - Littlefinger and Lysa murdered Jon Arryn
in the show. of which i've been missing quite a few episodes!

but a few points

jon acutally didnt die immediately from being poisoned.
It was acutally pycelle that lead to his death.
It was also not common knowledge and even when lysa blurts it out trying to drag sansa to the moon door, only sansa and marillion

Marillion is hated by the entire vale and would certainly not trust anything he says,. that and little finger cut off his fingers and tore out his eyes and pinned the death on lady lysa to himself. and was believed

leaving sansa and little finger as the only two people know that lady lysa poisoned jon arryn.
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Originally posted by g-man:
in the show. of which i've been missing quite a few episodes!

but a few points

jon acutally didnt die immediately from being poisoned.
It was acutally pycelle that lead to his death.
It was also not common knowledge and even when lysa blurts it out trying to drag sansa to the moon door, only sansa and marillion

Marillion is hated by the entire vale and would certainly not trust anything he says,. that and little finger cut off his fingers and tore out his eyes and pinned the death on lady lysa to himself. and was believed

leaving sansa and little finger as the only two people know that lady lysa poisoned jon arryn.


In both book and show my man -but yes they are likely the only 2 that know that.

Varys most likely would know/suspect as well
basically my theory still potentially stands

what if robert found out lyssa was pregnant with his son

gives a very good reason to start an entire war. Though I would certainly not neglect the underpinnings of "helen of troy" like story may be just as feasible a reason.

But this is martin and he's complained about "cliche" fantasy story lines!
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Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Why would Lyanna be worried about Robert killing the baby if it was his? It makes zero sense.


that wasn't stated in the books

only that lyanna told ned to promise him something and it's still unknown what was promised

and ned decided to claim the kid as his own.

though true, if robert did chase after his kid, he'd probably ask for him back huh.
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Originally posted by g-man:
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Originally posted by Danyull:
Ok, but why did the Vale knights claim Jon Snow the King in the North? Their allegiance belongs to the Arryns, not the Starks.

Especially given that Littlefinger is their current regent and not supportive of Jon Snow.

I get the drama, but it doesn't make sense.


Jon Arryn always considered ned stark like a son and actively defied aerys targaryen.

why would they follow another targaryen instead of a stark?

not to mention that lysa (Catelyn's sister) was aso married to jon Arryn before little finger came in and pushed her out of the moon gate.

house stark and house arryn are thoroughly connected by blood and marriages.

also remember that robert was with ned under the protection of jon arryn when the war broke out.

also what lyssa said to ned is still a mystery, but the show did spin it off that way.


Jon Arryn may have, but not necessarily the lords of the Vale. They would follow Arryn because he made the decision, not because they particularly like the Starks.

They don't know about Daenarys yet and they follow the crown. To support the Starks in the North is to participate in sedition from the rule of Tommen Baratheon whom they've already recognized as king. They have nothing to gain, since the North is a different country than the Vale, and everything to lose.

Lysa was a Tully before she became an Arryn. The Arryns are related through sisters who were originally Tully to begin with and only became a Stark later on.

While Robert and Ned may have been fostered in the Vale, don't forget that Tommen is a Baratheon and Jon isn't even a legitimate Stark. Between choosing the current King who's Robert Baratheon's son (at least to their knowledge unless they believed Stannis' memos), and a bastard son of a Stark with no army left, the decision should have been much harder given that the Vale cannot defeat the the combined Lannister/Tyrells.

If there was a time to support the Starks, it would have been during the War of 5 Kings. Except Lysa Arryn DGAF and neither did the rest of the Vale. It wasn't their business.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
basically my theory still potentially stands

what if robert found out lyssa was pregnant with his son

gives a very good reason to start an entire war. Though I would certainly not neglect the underpinnings of "helen of troy" like story may be just as feasible a reason.

But this is martin and he's complained about "cliche" fantasy story lines!


The war was started for lots of reasons.

1) Ned's brother and father were executed by Aerys II
2) Aerys wanted Ned and Robert killed to but Jon Arryn wouldn't give them up
3) Lyanna being abducted despite being already betrothed

I highly doubt it was because Robert impregnated her and wanted his love child.

*not chronological
Last edited by danyull
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
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Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Why would Lyanna be worried about Robert killing the baby if it was his? It makes zero sense.


that wasn't stated in the books

only that lyanna told ned to promise him something and it's still unknown what was promised

and ned decided to claim the kid as his own.

though true, if robert did chase after his kid, he'd probably ask for him back huh.


1. Is this a show thread or a book thread? You seem to jump to whichever gives you wiggle room to support your theory

2. Georgie told D & D who the parents were (the story is they won him over to let them do the show by correctly guessing Lyanna was Jon's mother) so there is no way they went rogue and made that up
It certainly would not make sense that Ned would claim the bastard as his own if it was Roberts.

Ned wasn't known as one that went around putting his pickle in other pickle slicers...so I doubt he'd draw the ire of Catelyn by bringing home a "Snow" unless he was hiding a much more important secret (i.e. Targaryen blood)
in a fit of boredom of been reading a few GoT conspiracy theory websites. All seem to focus around the idea that Daneryus is going to pull in to Blackwater Bay and fight if out directly. This may just be the Marine Corps in me, but this seems like the stupidest idea possible. Why would someone with what may be the most ruthless ground force in history attempt an amphibious landing, with a force that has no naval assault experience, at a place that has already defended against a sizable force? D could land 30 miles up shore and march on King's Landing, easily overwhelming the defenses, while still bombarding from the sea and landing a smaller force as a distraction from the main assault.

I think HBO should hire me as "warfare expert consultant"... I'll take partial pay in wine...
All dragons are not built equally. I didn't read the books, but I have read that young dragons are no match for the firepower and destruction that older dragons could wreak. Dany's trio aren't more than 2 years old in even the most accelerated show timelines. Dragons could continue to grow for most of their lives, and could live to be several centuries old.

Aegon's were likely much older than Dany's.
Just spent the past week binge-watching season 6. Wow! I love the show, but frankly, all the family interconnections discussed here are just giving me a headache.
The one thing that I wanted, but didn't happen, was in that last scene with Sansa and Ramsey, I wanted Sansa to do the "dinner" whistle for the dogs.
Also, 7 episodes in season 7? Ten was too short!
Great start to the season.

I doubt we'll get many slow episodes these final two seasons, given the amount of material they need to cover in a short time frame.

Also exciting to see that even though we're only getting 7 episodes, they're all at least one full hour long (with the exception of ep. 4), and 6 and 7 are 71 and 81 minutes respectively.

Episode 1: 59 minutes.
Episode 2: 59 minutes.
Episode 3: 63 minutes.
Episode 4: 50 minutes.
Episode 5: 59 minutes.
Episode 6: 71 minutes.
Episode 7: 81 minutes.