quote:
Originally posted by winetarelli:
Happy Father's Day!

The end was a little confusing... how Tyrion wound up there when I though he was on his way to meet Varys... and did Varys know that was going to happen? He certainly figured out some shit went down at the end.

I didn't get why Arya didn't kill the Hound... as his friend.


It'a been a while since I read the books, but IIRC Varys was basically in on helping Tyrion escape and kill his father. They really condensed a lot of what was in the books to wrap up a bunch of story lines in this episode, but as fusion storm says - it's adaptation. It was close enough to the books to be recognizable. As for Arya and the Hound, maybe that was the point, that even though they had shared friendly moments but were not friends. My question would be why she didn't kill him, given that he was on her list - can't remember how the book handled that one.

From here on, I found the story deteriorating in terms of quality in the books. Hopefully the next season(s) improve it with the 'adaptations'. By the last book, I found it not very interesting at all. The show however has kept the pace moving well so far. One adaptation was that we were spared the long tedious descent into the mountain below the tree for the young Stark boy.
quote:
Originally posted by VinCentric:
quote:
Originally posted by winetarelli:
Happy Father's Day!

The end was a little confusing... how Tyrion wound up there when I though he was on his way to meet Varys... and did Varys know that was going to happen? He certainly figured out some shit went down at the end.

I didn't get why Arya didn't kill the Hound... as his friend.


It'a been a while since I read the books, but IIRC Varys was basically in on helping Tyrion escape and kill his father. They really condensed a lot of what was in the books to wrap up a bunch of story lines in this episode, but as fusion storm says - it's adaptation. It was close enough to the books to be recognizable. As for Arya and the Hound, maybe that was the point, that even though they had shared friendly moments but were not friends. My question would be why she didn't kill him, given that he was on her list - can't remember how the book handled that one.

From here on, I found the story deteriorating in terms of quality in the books. Hopefully the next season(s) improve it with the 'adaptations'. By the last book, I found it not very interesting at all. The show however has kept the pace moving well so far. One adaptation was that we were spared the long tedious descent into the mountain below the tree for the young Stark boy.

I get why Arya didn't accede to the Hound's demand/request/plea. She knew that his "friendship" was not exactly genuine, and that with the ransom from her aunt off the table, she could be jettisoned by him quite quickly. Plus, she was aware that he had an infection from being bitten previously, and with his multiple wounds incurred in what looked to be a pretty remote and rugged area, the likelihood that he would suffer until his demise was what she preferred over a quick "prick" from her Needle.

There's also the "symmetry" aspect of the brothers Clegane both in grave condition with an unclear outlook of their continued existence going into next season.

As for Varys, he's always been pretty intuitive. Tangibly, he's presented with a Tyrion who's scratched up, bloodied and probably sweating/shaking from the adrenaline of killing two people he was so close with. Intangibly, Varys probably had been pacing for some time expecting Tyrion to show up a bit quicker than when he finally knocked twice. Varys had to have known something had happened from when Jaime had said Tyrion would show to when Tyrion did actually show up.
The changes they made to the Tyrion scenes at the end were significant and messed up the story. Not mentioning Tysha (his first wife) and the fact she was not really a whore etc., changed the context significantly. Was still good but would have made much more sense with at least some mention of it even if they did not want to bring the Jaime side of it. That is what led him to feel completely isolated, the killing of Shae, and the provocation from Tywin etc. This way he leaves on good terms with Jaime and does not have the total isolation so makes less sense.

The Weirwood man was disappointing as he should only have one eye and a large blood red mark on his face (which is a major clue as to who he originally is) and the tree is supposed to be literally growing through him.

Finally, no Coldhands and no LS?
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
The changes they made to the Tyrion scenes at the end were significant and messed up the story. Not mentioning Tysha (his first wife) and the fact she was not really a whore etc., changed the context significantly. Was still good but would have made much more sense with at least some mention of it even if they did not want to bring the Jaime side of it. That is what led him to feel completely isolated, the killing of Shae, and the provocation from Tywin etc. This way he leaves on good terms with Jaime and does not have the total isolation so makes less sense.

The Weirwood man was disappointing as he should only have one eye and a large blood red mark on his face (which is a major clue as to who he originally is) and the tree is supposed to be literally growing through him.

Finally, no Coldhands and no LS?

This is all wrong. "The story" is the TV show Game of Thrones. It is based on a series of books called A Song of Fire and Ice. While it certainly needs to remain faithful to the source material is does not need to slavishly follow it. I actually think it is often superior to the books. It is so excellent a series I'm expecting the producers to fix much of what makes books four and five such a slog. (I believe they will take those two books and but them in a more chronological order for two seasons.)

To be specific: It's pretty clear why Tyrio killed Shae and his father. As to Weirwood it's his prophecy that is key (no spoiler here, it's pretty obvious it important) and as to the tree growing through him, to quote Hillary Clinton, "What difference does it make?"

I've always said the most insignificant film review is, "It wasn't as good as the book." Separate art forms.
quote:
Originally posted by fusionstorm:
I get why Arya didn't accede to the Hound's demand/request/plea. She knew that his "friendship" was not exactly genuine, and that with the ransom from her aunt off the table, she could be jettisoned by him quite quickly. Plus, she was aware that he had an infection from being bitten previously, and with his multiple wounds incurred in what looked to be a pretty remote and rugged area, the likelihood that he would suffer until his demise was what she preferred over a quick "prick" from her Needle.

There's also the "symmetry" aspect of the brothers Clegane both in grave condition with an unclear outlook of their continued existence going into next season.

The point is each changed the other. She's become hardened while he softened. I don't think he would have abandoned her and took him at his word that he was her protector. She however learned how to survive in this harsh world, (and Westeros is nothing is not harsh) especially as a young girl.
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
The changes they made to the Tyrion scenes at the end were significant and messed up the story. Not mentioning Tysha (his first wife) and the fact she was not really a whore etc., changed the context significantly. Was still good but would have made much more sense with at least some mention of it even if they did not want to bring the Jaime side of it. That is what led him to feel completely isolated, the killing of Shae, and the provocation from Tywin etc. This way he leaves on good terms with Jaime and does not have the total isolation so makes less sense.

The Weirwood man was disappointing as he should only have one eye and a large blood red mark on his face (which is a major clue as to who he originally is) and the tree is supposed to be literally growing through him.

Finally, no Coldhands and no LS?

This is all wrong. "The story" is the TV show Game of Thrones. It is based on a series of books called A Song of Fire and Ice. While it certainly needs to remain faithful to the source material is does not need to slavishly follow it. I actually think it is often superior to the books. It is so excellent a series I'm expecting the producers to fix much of what makes books four and five such a slog. (I believe they will take those two books and but them in a more chronological order for two seasons.)

To be specific: It's pretty clear why Tyrio killed Shae and his father. As to Weirwood it's his prophecy that is key (no spoiler here, it's pretty obvious it important) and as to the tree growing through him, to quote Hillary Clinton, "What difference does it make?"

I've always said the most insignificant film review is, "It wasn't as good as the book." Separate art forms.


I disagree with you. If you think I am "all wrong", fine. You have your opinion, I have mine. I agree it is the TV show which should be judged on its own merits. However, this narrative change (both aspects of it) significantly changed the reason for what he did in a way that does not make as much sense. Oh, my dad is a jerk and my whore humiliated me. Fine, he loved her it was bad, Tywin hated him ... The trial was outstanding. However, the back story is what explained all of this and why Tyrion cracks and they referenced it in Season 1 at length so why not bring it out. I also think that this particular change (one of the few I have quibbled with) detracts from the point of what happens with Tyrion. Yes, you understand why he did it, I have no problem following the narrative, however, the story oversimplified the action -

As to the Weirwood - perhaps you don't know what historical figure the character is, maybe you do, but his appearance is important unless they are eliminating who he actually is - in which case you are right it does not matter

I never compared the show to the books qualitatively.
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
The changes they made to the Tyrion scenes at the end were significant and messed up the story. Not mentioning Tysha (his first wife) and the fact she was not really a whore etc., changed the context significantly. Was still good but would have made much more sense with at least some mention of it even if they did not want to bring the Jaime side of it. That is what led him to feel completely isolated, the killing of Shae, and the provocation from Tywin etc. This way he leaves on good terms with Jaime and does not have the total isolation so makes less sense.

The Weirwood man was disappointing as he should only have one eye and a large blood red mark on his face (which is a major clue as to who he originally is) and the tree is supposed to be literally growing through him.

Finally, no Coldhands and no LS?

This is all wrong. "The story" is the TV show Game of Thrones. It is based on a series of books called A Song of Fire and Ice. While it certainly needs to remain faithful to the source material is does not need to slavishly follow it. I actually think it is often superior to the books. It is so excellent a series I'm expecting the producers to fix much of what makes books four and five such a slog. (I believe they will take those two books and but them in a more chronological order for two seasons.)

To be specific: It's pretty clear why Tyrio killed Shae and his father. As to Weirwood it's his prophecy that is key (no spoiler here, it's pretty obvious it important) and as to the tree growing through him, to quote Hillary Clinton, "What difference does it make?"

I've always said the most insignificant film review is, "It wasn't as good as the book." Separate art forms.


I disagree with you. If you think I am "all wrong", fine. You have your opinion, I have mine. I agree it is the TV show which should be judged on its own merits. However, this narrative change (both aspects of it) significantly changed the reason for what he did in a way that does not make as much sense. Oh, my dad is a jerk and my whore humiliated me.

I don't think any non-book reader doesn't know he killed Shae because she betrayed him and that he killed his father because, as Tyrion said, his father never accepted him as his son and pretty much wanted him dead.
quote:
I never compared the show to the books qualitatively.

Eek Confused
I meant a general comparison, of simply saying oh yeah, the books are just better. I think it is fair to notice changes and comment on them though - hard to avoid if you have read the books. I think Benioff and Weiss have done an amazing job overall and the cast has largely been incredible. Enough book talk, I really enjoyed Season 4. Very curious for next season.
I'm happy not to have read the books... though it does make me wonder...

Anyway, iirc, they are condensing books 4 and 5 into one single season, and they have always suggested the tv series might deviate a little from where the books go.

As long as Tyrion doesn't go anti-Jamie (ie., go from a lovable character to an evil one) I'll be ok.

Also- I loved season 1; and I really liked seasons 2 and 3. But this past season was just out-control-good. Easily the best so far, imo.
quote:
Originally posted by winetarelli:
I'm happy not to have read the books... though it does make me wonder...

Anyway, iirc, they are condensing books 4 and 5 into one single season, and they have always suggested the tv series might deviate a little from where the books go.

As long as Tyrion doesn't go anti-Jamie (ie., go from a lovable character to an evil one) I'll be ok.

Also- I loved season 1; and I really liked seasons 2 and 3. But this past season was just out-control-good. Easily the best so far, imo.


The biggest difference from book to show in my view is the show simply can't replicate the POV narrative of the book. Each chapter is told from the perspective of a POV character so the story is incomplete and skewed creating an even further lack of confidence in the story for the reader and additional insight into the thoughts/emotions of the POV character. It is one of the main reasons that I think to many viewers the Jon character does not resonate as well on the show as on the page.

Faulkner's As I Lay Dying is the first book (that I can remember) that I read that does something similar.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorgerunfast:
Finally caught up... Is Arya going to Bravos? What's in Bravos?

I haven't read the books and haven't read of any spoilers about this. But a likely clue was in the "Previously on Game of Thrones" segment before the start of the show. Jaqen H'ghar gives Arya the iron coin while telling her "if the day comes when you must find me again, just give that coin to any man from Braavos and say these words.....valar morghulis" (translates to "all men must die" in High Valyrian). She does this to the Braavosi ship captain, who responds "valar dohaeris" ("all men must serve") and grants her safe passage on his ship.

So yes, it is highly likely she's headed to Braavos and will meet up with the Faceless Men (the assassins group that Jaqen is part of).

If you're interested in trying to suss out any further possibilities, here are all scenes on the show to date involving Jaqen:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y31RoHC15pM
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jorgerunfast:
Finally caught up... Is Arya going to Bravos?

Yes.

What's in Bravos?

You'll have to wait until next year.

What's the story with The Mountain? Is he going to come back some super-beast?

You'll have to wait until next year.


I bet you're a lot of fun at parties.


Razz
quote:
Originally posted by Jorgerunfast:
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jorgerunfast:
Finally caught up... Is Arya going to Bravos?

Yes.

What's in Bravos?

You'll have to wait until next year.

What's the story with The Mountain? Is he going to come back some super-beast?

You'll have to wait until next year.


I bet you're a lot of fun at parties.


Razz

Just ask San Diego group I offlined with last month when I told them that all of the music they liked sucked. They were highly amused.

But really, I don't like giving spoilers.
quote:
Originally posted by eyesintime:
Just started watching season 3 on DVD. I've enjoyed the first two episodes, but doesn't seem quite as good so far as the first two seasons. Just wondering overall how people felt season 3 stacked up against 1 and 2?


My overall impression of the seasons so far goes like this:

Season 1: #2
Season 2: #3
Season 3: #4
Season 4: #1

I liked season 3, and it picks up a little nearer the end, but it is easily my least favorite of the seasons -- it seems like even the action in it is really just exposition serving as a bridge to the supreme awesomeness that is season 4. Still, I thought it was decent... and if you'll notice where season 4 ranks (and it is imperative, obviously, that you watch all of season 3 before starting season 4) it is definitely worth continuing. Definitely.
quote:
Originally posted by winetarelli:
quote:
Originally posted by eyesintime:
Just started watching season 3 on DVD. I've enjoyed the first two episodes, but doesn't seem quite as good so far as the first two seasons. Just wondering overall how people felt season 3 stacked up against 1 and 2?


My overall impression of the seasons so far goes like this:

Season 1: #2
Season 2: #3
Season 3: #4
Season 4: #1

I liked season 3, and it picks up a little nearer the end, but it is easily my least favorite of the seasons -- it seems like even the action in it is really just exposition serving as a bridge to the supreme awesomeness that is season 4. Still, I thought it was decent... and if you'll notice where season 4 ranks (and it is imperative, obviously, that you watch all of season 3 before starting season 4) it is definitely worth continuing. Definitely.


Thanks for your thoughts Winetarelli. I was definitely planning on finishing the season and actually watched two more episodes late last night. Your assessment of season 3 really put into words what I was feeling about the season so far -- it is just kind of moving along. One thing I have noticed about season 3 that I didn't notice in previous seasons (though it's been awhile since I watched those) is some almost tongue-in-cheek scenes that, at least right now, don't really have anything to do with the plot and seem a little "beneath" the quality of the series. Those plus the "just-moving-along" aspect of the season so far had me wondering if the quality was dropping. Good to hear season 4 is so good.
Watched the final two episodes of season 3 on Friday night. The season definitely got better as it went along (second to last episode was very good), but not as good as previous seasons. I can see how this season set up things for season 4, and I'm looking forward to watching that when it becomes available on DVD.
Trailer certainly did nothing to tamp down any excitement about the new season starting next month. I read a frame by frame analysis of the trailer, and there were a couple of departures from the books noted (I haven't read the books). The new characters that are being introduced to the series will likely be very fascinating.
The slowly building up of nuclear level weapons as the dragons are growing at a ferocious rate under daenerys in the city of meeren.

meanwhile in the free cities, a small group ventures out and tries to strike a seperate deal with daenerys much against prince aegon targaryens authority.

just kidding... thought i'd interject with our foolish politics state side =)
quote:
Originally posted by spo:
Great episodes so far. They feel like they are over way too quickly.

+1

This is the first season where I'm watching each week rather than binging through a season at once. Not sure which I enjoy more but right now I may say binging because to your point, after 50 minutes I want more than watching credits.
quote:
Originally posted by Vino Bevo:
quote:
Originally posted by spo:
Great episodes so far. They feel like they are over way too quickly.

+1

This is the first season where I'm watching each week rather than binging through a season at once. Not sure which I enjoy more but right now I may say binging because to your point, after 50 minutes I want more than watching credits.


Couldn't agree more. I heard the show is using abit of chapters from Book 3,4,5. So book readers will have the feeling its jumping all over the place. Speaking of the book (Don't worry. No Spoilers here), George RR Martin's book editor Jane Johnson was quite ticked off about some divergence from the book. Mainly how Loras Tyrell was marginalized into a very minor character, and a "certain" recent death on Season 5 that was not warranted.

And my beef is that the producers cutted out a lot of Stannis's witty one liners. For a Lobster-like character who never smiles, the guy actually got a great sense of humor IMO.

In fairness tho, I did love Ser Bronn's expanded role in the show.
Q: Who's that ?
A: Jamie Fooking Lannister.
They are deviating from the books a lot and it cannot be helped. Some of the changes have been good, others have not made much sense but whatever - I try to judge the show on its own as much as possible.

So far I am enjoying the season. Personally, I would always prefer more Arya and less Dany - true also in the books for me. On re-reads, I often skip Dany chapters.

Regardless, this season has been pretty enjoyable so far with the exception of the Sons of Harpy episode which blew chunks and made absolutely no sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
They are deviating from the books a lot and it cannot be helped. Some of the changes have been good, others have not made much sense but whatever - I try to judge the show on its own as much as possible.

So far I am enjoying the season. Personally, I would always prefer more Arya and less Dany - true also in the books for me. On re-reads, I often skip Dany chapters.

Regardless, this season has been pretty enjoyable so far with the exception of the Sons of Harpy episode which blew chunks and made absolutely no sense.


Having not read the books, I cannot comment on what will happen... but since they are deviating anyway...


I think they are setting things up for Tyrion to become Dany's primary advisor.

There hasn't been nearly as much Dany sex/nudity which makes her storyline less interesting, but I still like it.

Agreed, I love Arya and hope she continues to play a major role and they don't switch actors if she becomes "a girl".

I like the season so far and/but Stannis is a much more likable character this season so far which I find interesting. They managed to turn Jamie into a sympathetic character (and sortof The Hound, too) so I suppose anything is possible.

I'm glad Bran isn't in this season. I have no use for him nor his storyline.

I've loved the buddy duo routine of Bronn and Jamie, though.

As soon as I saw Indira Varma last season I knew she had to have more than a few lines. I'm interested to see where that storyline goes -- but I have my reservations.

Overall, not as amazing as season 4 so far, but still very strong -- and plus no Bran!

Also, since I know that this season may pass some aspects of where the books are -- and I haven't read the books, and I know that nothing has been revealed in the books anyway -- by the end of this season I'm betting we see Jon Snow not burned by fire.
quote:
Originally posted by gigabit:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Personally, I would always prefer more Arya and less Dany - true also in the books for me. On re-reads, I often skip Dany chapters.

Both she (Daenerys) and Cersei have become very tedious characters.


Show or book? They are trying to make show Cersei much more sympathetic than the books - and more rational and less insane and paranoid
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
quote:
Originally posted by gigabit:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Personally, I would always prefer more Arya and less Dany - true also in the books for me. On re-reads, I often skip Dany chapters.

Both she (Daenerys) and Cersei have become very tedious characters.


Show or book? They are trying to make show Cersei much more sympathetic than the books - and more rational and less insane and paranoid

Wait. They are trying to make show Cersei more sympathetic?! Wow. TV Cersei is about as unsympathetic a character as I've seen on TV (short of Joffrey and the Boltons). I'd hate to see book Cersei.

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