I do love that the show does not spoon feed these issues so things are open to interpretation and debate.

Even with gripes and quibbles, this episode was fantastic. Overall, the season has been excellent although Episodes 6-8 were a weaker segment of the season
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:although Episodes 6-8 were a weaker segment of the season

And I don't even accept that! Razz
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:although Episodes 6-8 were a weaker segment of the season

And I don't even accept that! Razz


The Arya stroll through Braavos and Waif attack was lame - surely we can agree on that?
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:although Episodes 6-8 were a weaker segment of the season

And I don't even accept that! Razz


The Arya stroll through Braavos and Waif attack was lame - surely we can agree on that?


Yep, Waif as Terminator.
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:although Episodes 6-8 were a weaker segment of the season

And I don't even accept that! Razz


The Arya stroll through Braavos and Waif attack was lame - surely we can agree on that?


Yep, Waif as Terminator.


Yeah lame. She doesn't even really begin Faceless Man training before she's "complete". LAME.

I think we're porting our 21st century culture a bit to what is supposedly a few hundred years back. Sansa prob didn't speak up in the war council because women weren't supposed to. She hasn't earned the respect of Tormund and Davos and Jon's relationship with her has been testy. There was also no knowledge of how and when the Knights of the Vale would help.

Also if she had told them that the man she requested help from was Littlefinger, one of the men that betrayed Ned Stark, there would probably have been quite the disagreement.

I think she's coming into her own and is far more likable in the show than in the books.
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
quote:
Originally posted by jburman82:
Cersi playing chess while everybody else playing checkers.


Until Jaime kills her next season


Big Grin You really think that will happen?
quote:
Originally posted by jburman82:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
quote:
Originally posted by jburman82:
Cersi playing chess while everybody else playing checkers.


Until Jaime kills her next season


Big Grin You really think that will happen?


65% likely I would say.
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
I guess we now know Jon Snow's origin...


who's the father though?

was it rhaegar or robert

or a little ambigious still?
With the way the story lines are developing, I'm gonna say Rhaegar's the father, and Danarys and Jon will form some sort of alliance/marriage. What I'm having trouble seeing at this point is any good fights left. Everyone is going to ally themselves against the Lannisters. They're gonna be slaughtered. What major houses are even left on their side? Besides the Frey's?
quote:
Originally posted by mjraica:
With the way the story lines are developing, I'm gonna say Rhaegar's the father, and Danarys and Jon will form some sort of alliance/marriage. What I'm having trouble seeing at this point is any good fights left. Everyone is going to ally themselves against the Lannisters. They're gonna be slaughtered. What major houses are even left on their side? Besides the Frey's?



The white walkers are the overarching battle still.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
I guess we now know Jon Snow's origin...


who's the father though?

was it rhaegar or robert

or a little ambigious still?

Yeah I think the father is ambiguous, but I took it that Jon is the probable heir to the Iron Throne.
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
I guess we now know Jon Snow's origin...


who's the father though?

was it rhaegar or robert

or a little ambigious still?

Yeah I think the father is ambiguous, but I took it that Jon is the probable heir to the Iron Throne.


It shouldn't be ambiguous anymore.

The baby is Jon Snow.

Jon Snow is obviously no longer Ned's bastard.

There were two Kingsguard guarding Lyanna Stark who can only be commanded by the royal family. Nobody but Rhaegar in the royal family has any connection to Lyanna Stark. Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow.

The show is also called Song of Ice and Fire. Jon Snow = Ice, Daenarys Targaryen = Fire. Showdown time.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
I guess we now know Jon Snow's origin...


who's the father though?

was it rhaegar or robert

or a little ambigious still?


Robert is not the father because she was kidnapped before they were married. Also because Robert couldn't command the Kingsguard. If it was Robert's child, the Kingsguard would probably have orders to kill the baby upon delivery and wouldn't be waiting around outside.
quote:
Originally posted by Danyull:
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
I guess we now know Jon Snow's origin...


who's the father though?

was it rhaegar or robert

or a little ambigious still?

Yeah I think the father is ambiguous, but I took it that Jon is the probable heir to the Iron Throne.


It shouldn't be ambiguous anymore.

The baby is Jon Snow.

Jon Snow is obviously no longer Ned's bastard.

There were two Kingsguard guarding Lyanna Stark who can only be commanded by the royal family. Nobody but Rhaegar in the royal family has any connection to Lyanna Stark. Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow.

The show is also called Song of Ice and Fire. Jon Snow = Ice, Daenarys Targaryen = Fire. Showdown time.


Robert could be the father as you dont know the timeline before lyanna was kidnapped by rhaegar.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by Danyull:
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by PD2K:
I guess we now know Jon Snow's origin...


who's the father though?

was it rhaegar or robert

or a little ambigious still?

Yeah I think the father is ambiguous, but I took it that Jon is the probable heir to the Iron Throne.


It shouldn't be ambiguous anymore.

The baby is Jon Snow.

Jon Snow is obviously no longer Ned's bastard.

There were two Kingsguard guarding Lyanna Stark who can only be commanded by the royal family. Nobody but Rhaegar in the royal family has any connection to Lyanna Stark. Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow.

The show is also called Song of Ice and Fire. Jon Snow = Ice, Daenarys Targaryen = Fire. Showdown time.


Robert could be the father as you dont know the timeline before lyanna was kidnapped by rhaegar.


It doesn't make any sense for Robert to be the father.
well he is

because lyanna is the mother.

lyanna was betroth for a while to robert.

one could argue that robert held lyanna on a pedastal and didnt want to sully her until the marriage, which when rhaegar kidnapped her lead to a chase that lead to a few wars.

but she was also a stark and knew an alliance with the barrathean's would mean a great deal of power for the stark family. so she might have had a fling with robert too, even if she did prefer rhaegar later on.

also robert and ned stark were as close as brothers, that statement could have easily been referring to robert, as rhaegar had no such love from ned stark.
I heard Lyanna say "If Robert finds out, he'll... you know he will."

To me, that makes it very clear that Jon Snow is not Robert's child.

Jon Snow is half Stark and half Targaryen. He is the Song of Ice and Fire
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
well he is

because lyanna is the mother.

lyanna was betroth for a while to robert.

one could argue that robert held lyanna on a pedastal and didnt want to sully her until the marriage, which when rhaegar kidnapped her lead to a chase that lead to a few wars.

but she was also a stark and knew an alliance with the barrathean's would mean a great deal of power for the stark family. so she might have had a fling with robert too, even if she did prefer rhaegar later on.

also robert and ned stark were as close as brothers, that statement could have easily been referring to robert, as rhaegar had no such love from ned stark.


It makes WAY more sense for it to be Rhaegar both contextually and from the plot.

Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert, there's no need to make a love child. She was also a Stark, a family known for their honor and not impulsive and passionate like Robert.

While they were close, they were widely split on whether or not to kill the Targaryen babies. Ned left King's Landing and a rift was created in their friendship due to their disagreements on whether or not to hunt down and kill the babies. Robert approved of the Lannisters slaughtering Elia and her children while Ned was disgusted by it. Hence, Lyanna's dying words to not tell Robert.

Also, if it wasn't Rhaegar's child, he would have ordered the Kingsguard to kill the baby upon birth.
quote:
Originally posted by Rothko:
I heard Lyanna say "If Robert finds out, he'll... you know he will."

To me, that makes it very clear that Jon Snow is not Robert's child.

Jon Snow is half Stark and half Targaryen. He is the Song of Ice and Fire


This.
bah,

damn martin and his laziness!

the show certainly spins it that way.

but it was always amusing to read about robert's many bastards with the lannisters trying to kill off robert's bastards too.

i guess we'll see

if jon show is able to ride a white ice dragon then you guys may be right
Ok, but why did the Vale knights claim Jon Snow the King in the North? Their allegiance belongs to the Arryns, not the Starks.

Especially given that Littlefinger is their current regent and not supportive of Jon Snow.

I get the drama, but it doesn't make sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Danyull:
Ok, but why did the Vale knights claim Jon Snow the King in the North? Their allegiance belongs to the Arryns, not the Starks.

Especially given that Littlefinger is their current regent and not supportive of Jon Snow.

I get the drama, but it doesn't make sense.


Jon Arryn always considered ned stark like a son and actively defied aerys targaryen.

why would they follow another targaryen instead of a stark?

not to mention that lysa (Catelyn's sister) was aso married to jon Arryn before little finger came in and pushed her out of the moon gate.

house stark and house arryn are thoroughly connected by blood and marriages.

also remember that robert was with ned under the protection of jon arryn when the war broke out.

also what lyssa said to ned is still a mystery, but the show did spin it off that way.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by Danyull:
Ok, but why did the Vale knights claim Jon Snow the King in the North? Their allegiance belongs to the Arryns, not the Starks.

Especially given that Littlefinger is their current regent and not supportive of Jon Snow.

I get the drama, but it doesn't make sense.


Jon Arryn always considered ned stark like a son and actively defied aerys targaryen.

why would they follow another targaryen instead of a stark?

not to mention that lysa (Catelyn's sister) was aso married to jon Arryn before little finger came in and pushed her out of the moon gate.

house stark and house arryn are thoroughly connected by blood and marriages.

also remember that robert was with ned under the protection of jon arryn when the war broke out.

also what lyssa said to ned is still a mystery, but the show did spin it off that way.


Dude - Littlefinger and Lysa murdered Jon Arryn
in the show. of which i've been missing quite a few episodes!

but a few points

jon acutally didnt die immediately from being poisoned.
It was acutally pycelle that lead to his death.
It was also not common knowledge and even when lysa blurts it out trying to drag sansa to the moon door, only sansa and marillion

Marillion is hated by the entire vale and would certainly not trust anything he says,. that and little finger cut off his fingers and tore out his eyes and pinned the death on lady lysa to himself. and was believed

leaving sansa and little finger as the only two people know that lady lysa poisoned jon arryn.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
in the show. of which i've been missing quite a few episodes!

but a few points

jon acutally didnt die immediately from being poisoned.
It was acutally pycelle that lead to his death.
It was also not common knowledge and even when lysa blurts it out trying to drag sansa to the moon door, only sansa and marillion

Marillion is hated by the entire vale and would certainly not trust anything he says,. that and little finger cut off his fingers and tore out his eyes and pinned the death on lady lysa to himself. and was believed

leaving sansa and little finger as the only two people know that lady lysa poisoned jon arryn.


In both book and show my man -but yes they are likely the only 2 that know that.

Varys most likely would know/suspect as well
basically my theory still potentially stands

what if robert found out lyssa was pregnant with his son

gives a very good reason to start an entire war. Though I would certainly not neglect the underpinnings of "helen of troy" like story may be just as feasible a reason.

But this is martin and he's complained about "cliche" fantasy story lines!
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Why would Lyanna be worried about Robert killing the baby if it was his? It makes zero sense.


that wasn't stated in the books

only that lyanna told ned to promise him something and it's still unknown what was promised

and ned decided to claim the kid as his own.

though true, if robert did chase after his kid, he'd probably ask for him back huh.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by Danyull:
Ok, but why did the Vale knights claim Jon Snow the King in the North? Their allegiance belongs to the Arryns, not the Starks.

Especially given that Littlefinger is their current regent and not supportive of Jon Snow.

I get the drama, but it doesn't make sense.


Jon Arryn always considered ned stark like a son and actively defied aerys targaryen.

why would they follow another targaryen instead of a stark?

not to mention that lysa (Catelyn's sister) was aso married to jon Arryn before little finger came in and pushed her out of the moon gate.

house stark and house arryn are thoroughly connected by blood and marriages.

also remember that robert was with ned under the protection of jon arryn when the war broke out.

also what lyssa said to ned is still a mystery, but the show did spin it off that way.


Jon Arryn may have, but not necessarily the lords of the Vale. They would follow Arryn because he made the decision, not because they particularly like the Starks.

They don't know about Daenarys yet and they follow the crown. To support the Starks in the North is to participate in sedition from the rule of Tommen Baratheon whom they've already recognized as king. They have nothing to gain, since the North is a different country than the Vale, and everything to lose.

Lysa was a Tully before she became an Arryn. The Arryns are related through sisters who were originally Tully to begin with and only became a Stark later on.

While Robert and Ned may have been fostered in the Vale, don't forget that Tommen is a Baratheon and Jon isn't even a legitimate Stark. Between choosing the current King who's Robert Baratheon's son (at least to their knowledge unless they believed Stannis' memos), and a bastard son of a Stark with no army left, the decision should have been much harder given that the Vale cannot defeat the the combined Lannister/Tyrells.

If there was a time to support the Starks, it would have been during the War of 5 Kings. Except Lysa Arryn DGAF and neither did the rest of the Vale. It wasn't their business.
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
basically my theory still potentially stands

what if robert found out lyssa was pregnant with his son

gives a very good reason to start an entire war. Though I would certainly not neglect the underpinnings of "helen of troy" like story may be just as feasible a reason.

But this is martin and he's complained about "cliche" fantasy story lines!


The war was started for lots of reasons.

1) Ned's brother and father were executed by Aerys II
2) Aerys wanted Ned and Robert killed to but Jon Arryn wouldn't give them up
3) Lyanna being abducted despite being already betrothed

I highly doubt it was because Robert impregnated her and wanted his love child.

*not chronological
Last edited by danyull
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Why would Lyanna be worried about Robert killing the baby if it was his? It makes zero sense.


that wasn't stated in the books

only that lyanna told ned to promise him something and it's still unknown what was promised

and ned decided to claim the kid as his own.

though true, if robert did chase after his kid, he'd probably ask for him back huh.


1. Is this a show thread or a book thread? You seem to jump to whichever gives you wiggle room to support your theory

2. Georgie told D & D who the parents were (the story is they won him over to let them do the show by correctly guessing Lyanna was Jon's mother) so there is no way they went rogue and made that up
It certainly would not make sense that Ned would claim the bastard as his own if it was Roberts.

Ned wasn't known as one that went around putting his pickle in other pickle slicers...so I doubt he'd draw the ire of Catelyn by bringing home a "Snow" unless he was hiding a much more important secret (i.e. Targaryen blood)
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
i'm still on season 3 of the show =(

You need to watch less porn, and catch up to the rest of us.

Wink

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