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Does Fine Dining Still Exist?

C countmourvedreMember
In lieu of a recent personal experience, I sat down and wondered....does fine dining still exist? And if it does, how do you define it? Since I comment about all things related to food and wine, I thought I would offer up my opinion on the subject and hope you'll do the same.

When I here the term "fine dining", I'm immediately transported back to a distant time when going out to eat was a special event. As a member of the baby boom generation, I was raised on meals cooked by my mother in our home. That was the order of life back in the 60's. Every once in a while, maybe every three months we were treated to a night out at a restaurant. For our very dysfunctional family (don't get me started on that subject), it was usually fairly expensive and my brother and I were required to "dress up". Sportcoat, clip-on tie, pressed slacks, and shined shoes
were all de rigueur for the experience.
It seems there were numerous restaurants classified as "fine dining" establishments back then and they all shared a few elements that made them stand out as such. First, they all had this sort of mystique about them. There was an ambiance in the decor. Usually that meant lots of dark wood and red leather. Warm colors and enticing aromas beckoned upon your arrival as to what awaited. There was a Maitre D' to greet you and show you to your table. The waiters were impeccable in their presentation and they were always there when you needed something, but disappeared into the woodwork when you didn't. The food was usually European in nature or should I say Continental. Lavishly presented, the portions were small, yet adequate which usually meant the food was rich with butter and cream. Desserts were all made at the restaurant and there were even
several made at the table, flambeed with great aplomb and showmanship. Those were the "fine dining" memories of my youth and when I started working in restaurants in the '70's, I wanted to work in those kinds of places. In the latter part of that decade, I was
fortunate to get experience in some of the best restaurants my city had to offer and they were all classified as "fine dining". When I went off to New York to attend the Culinary Institute of America in the early '80's, I was well served by my fine dining restaurant experiences. It was those experiences and subsequent extensive dining room training that put me ahead of my chef want-to-be peers, at least in the dining room service classes.
But then something happened. Fine dining as I knew it started a long slow decline in to the
dreadful abyss now known as...casual dining. There are many reasons this occurred, but I believe when women started to discover themselves and wanted careers and children, the trend veered towards convenience. Time became a huge factor and cooking meals at home with both parents working just didn't cut it anymore. Fast food restaurants boomed and places like Applebee's, Chili's, and Outback Steakhouse became popular almost overnight. A decent meal at a decent price where you could get in and out fairly quickly became a boon to the average family. What was classified as the "fine dining" segment fell precipitously in the wake of these new found eateries. The term "dining" fell out of favor in lieu of just "eating" or "grabbing a quick bite". The masses wanted casual dining...uh....feeding, but they still longed for something special. Concepts soon sprang up like weeds offering an enhanced "dining" experience that's now known
as (shudder).... upscale casual (UC).
Now, UC restaurant chains litter the landscape with their overly friendly service and fantastic
value for the dollar head trip. All done in a cookie-cutter, Better Homes and Gardens style, cutsie atmosphere. It sickens me to what has happened to restaurants over the past 30+ years. There's nothing special about going out anymore and that's why I rarely do. I have a running joke about opening a restaurant called The Trough. "Come feed at the The Trough" or "Lets go graze at the Trough". We've hot-wired the herd mentality into our day to day living and what was once special and unique doesn't exist anymore. Sad. Very sad.

Having said that...let's answer the question, does true fine dining still exist? The answer is a resounding YES! It exists, but only conditionally in some selected places. You will fine numerous fine dining restaurants in New York City, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, New
Orleans, Las Vegas, etc. Large metropolitan cities known for food all have traditional fine dining bastions that defy the odds and will remain relevant forever. However, there are some places that categorize themselves as "fine dining" that have no business doing so. So, what defines fine dining? What makes a restaurant a fine dining establishment?

In my learned opinion, "fine dining" is more about the feeling and the experience and less about the food. Now you may argue that point, but let me continue. You can have a plain Jane facade, but upon entering, the true fine dining (FD) restaurant will have these elements:

Maitre D'/Floor Manager - a powerful presence is a must! No gum chewing, text messaging young girls (no matter how attractive) can be entrusted to greet and seat in a
FD restaurant. This is where first impressions are made and a mistake here can make or
break the experience.

Dress Code - FD translates into, "NO SHORTS, NO FLIP-FLOPS! Business casual with
a sport coat preferred. No hats, no bandannas (you laugh, but I've seen it) and men must have their shirts tucked in. If there's no dress code, then you are NOT fine dining. Period.
Got it?

Servers - must be impeccable in their presentation and training. Consistency is key and the management staff must enforce the accepted standards. Servers should be on their
stations when on duty to anticipate guest needs. They should be seen and rarely heard.
Professionalism is paramount in a FD restaurant.

Sommelier/Wine Steward -well trained and preferably certified to be able to suggest
wines that will compliment the guest's meal. They need to be able to offer choices at
multiple price points and not just try to build up the check by suggesting expensive wines.
Earning the guest's trust is important in developing a repeat customer (a regular).

Food - Attractively presented. Hot food hot, cold food cold. Yes, even steakhouses can be
FD, but presentation is extremely important. In my mind, a $40 steak better look the part
as well as taste it.

Langniappe (Louisiana-speak for "a little something extra") - Give the guest something
they are not expecting. True fine dining is expensive....make it worth it.

Ambiance - All FD restaurants have it and cutsie doesn't cut it.

Fine dining needs all the above, but more importantly it needs a dedicated owner, managers, and service staff to pull it off. Without true professionals, a real fine dining restaurant is just a dream. Good help, especially in metropolitan suburbia is hard to find and keep. I wouldn't want to
attempt to open a fine dining concept with college students as my primary staff. Hell...knowing what I know, I would never want to open a restaurant of any kind at any time for any reason!

I have but one thing to say to these restaurant owners that call their places "fine dining" just
because they have high prices and a reputation based on past glory.....SHAME, SHAME,
SHAME! It kind of reminds me of the answer to the riddle I was told as a child. Just because you call a dog's tail a leg, doesn't make it so. So stop embarrassing yourself and insulting the intelligence (and cherished memories) of those who know better and categorize yourself as to what you really are.....UPSCALE CASUAL. (Blah!)

The Count has vented and now rests.
Original Post

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glennkglennkMember
So are you saying “fine dining” used to exist everywhere and now it’s only in major cities? Or are you saying fine dining is used to loosely as a term these days? Seems to me fine dining is bigger than ever with the increasing popularity of cooking, celebrity chefs, etc. Vegas is the perfect example. You don’t go to Vegas looking for the steak and lobster special for $4 anymore.

I agree with most of your basic points of what a fine dining restaurant should be. I do have 2 comments:

1. You don’t mention the quality of the food. You mention presentation, service, temperature, but to be “fine dining” the restaurant should use the highest quality ingredients and the preparation should be flawless.

2. You mention dress code and maybe it’s an age thing, but tucking your shirt in is not the definition of dressed up anymore. There are plenty of ways to dress up these days without a boring sport coat and slacks. I do agree that ratty jeans and flip flops shouldn’t be forgiven just because you put a long sleeve shirt on.
winetarelliwinetarelliMember
quote:
Large metropolitan cities known for food all have traditional fine dining bastions that defy the odds and will remain relevant forever.

They don't defy the odds. People in cultural centers demand good and varied foods at differing price ranges. Try opening a TGIF in SF and see how far it gets you; now that would defy the odds.

The only non fast-food national chain restaurant I know of in the city of San Francisco is the Cheesecake Factory which (a) is better than 99% of the similar national chains and (b) is located on Union Square and visted exclusively by turists, anyway.


quote:
If there's no dress code, then you are NOT fine dining. Period.

Everything is deffinitional. That said, last week I went to a restaurant with two friends (one of whom posts here). Total bill after 1996 Salon, tax, and tip was over $260/person... plus we opened about 3k worth of additional wine to go along with dinner. The restaurant had no dress code, but gave us great food and service and I'm glad I didn't feel out of place in khakis, a collared short sleve shirt, and loafers without socks. Also, it was one of the best meals I've had in a long time and we spent ages negotiating the menu with the server -- suffice it to say, they went way off the menu for us. Also ate at two even better restaurants the week before -- both of which have stars in the Michelin guide -- and neither has a dress code.

This may be generational, but, outside of a very romantic evening where formality is meant to be a turn-on, I hate the idea of feeling forced to put on a tie for dinner... and I'm not super-cool with the idea of feeling forced to put on a sportcoat, either. (That does not mean I don't wear a sport coat out to nice dinners, only that when I do, it is a choice I'd prefer to make based upon a variety of factors, and I wouldn't want a dress code to be one of them.) 99.99% of the world has a rough understanding of what will be appropriate at a given restaurant, but one thing that is so important to me is to feel comfortable. When I lived in DC, one of my favorite restaurants was called Obelisk, and you could literally walk in in shorts and a T-shirt (though I don't think most people would) -- he servers were certainly wearing jeans an T-shirts. Of course, it was also a 4 or 5 course prix fixe at $65 that changed daily and provided some of the best food in the city. The service was super professional, but also casual, and people dressed accordingly. Or according to what they wanted the evening to be, for them.

quote:
Servers - must be impeccable in their presentation and training. Consistency is key and the management staff must enforce the accepted standards. Servers should be on their
stations when on duty to anticipate guest needs. They should be seen and rarely heard.
Professionalism is paramount in a FD restaurant.


I like to know my servers' honest thoughts about the menu, how he would go about ordering. If I bring my own wine (usually) I like to share a little with the server if I think he might be interested. For me, the best servers know how to be conspiratorial and casual, yet professional.

I agree that a strong wine program with a reasonable list geared toward the food actually being served is important.

All restaurants have ambiance. All places have ambiance. Whether you like the particular ambiance, that is a different story.

quote:
Langniappe (Louisiana-speak for "a little something extra") - Give the guest something
they are not expecting. True fine dining is expensive....make it worth it.


For me, that little something extra is making me feel welcomed. And, you seem to be creating this non-existant bi-polar world where everything is Applebee's or Daniel. What about the Afghani place that I adore 8 blocks from where I live. It isn't cheap (apps are $7, main courses $14) but it is certainly not expensive either... and, to be honest, price irrelevant, I'll put their food (and total experience) up against a Ruth's Chris any day of the week. It wouldn't be close.


I do not know what it is like in other parts of the country or world, but my experience is that you cannot define restaurants into neat little categories... and certainly not only two or three of them. That said, whatever your deffinition of Fine Dining is, you can certainly find it in areas where people love food; and it isn't that these places are bastions or famous, it is that they provide experiences that people want to have.
irwinirwinMember
It's all definitional, as noted above by Winetarelli.

I think you have defined "Fine Dining" in terms of your own personal pet peeves, which is ok, but we all have different definitions and different pet peeves.

Sometimes there is a fine line between "fine dining" and "overly pretentious". I recall once going to a restaurant in Charleston, S.C. (I don't remember the name) with my wife. The waiter comes over to take the orders and says to me (a male with a jacket and tie), "What will the lady be having tonight?"
(My wife is an intelligent human with a doctorate and she is actually capable of ordering at a restaurant herself). So, I said, "Beats the S...T out of me. Why don't you ask her?"
Anyway, when the check came, my wife reached out and grabbed it and used her card to pay.
Last edited by irwin
winetarelliwinetarelliMember
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by winetarelli:

I'm glad I didn't feel out of place in khakis, a collared short sleve shirt, and loafers without socks.


Well, it really depends on what loafers we are talking about here. Wink

It is always about the shoes! I'm thinking a nice pair of Ferragamos would work well. Razz


Actually, and I'm dead serious about this, they were Bruno Maglis... but I wasn't going to say that! Wink
W wine+artMember
quote:
Originally posted by winetarelli:
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by winetarelli:

I'm glad I didn't feel out of place in khakis, a collared short sleve shirt, and loafers without socks.


Well, it really depends on what loafers we are talking about here. Wink

It is always about the shoes! I'm thinking a nice pair of Ferragamos would work well. Razz


Actually, and I'm dead serious about this, they were Bruno Maglis... but I wasn't going to say that! Wink



I'm dead serious also... just ask skoshy and others that know my fastidious ways.

Oh, I also expected nothing less from you. Wink
F floridakeysgirlMember
quote:
The waiter comes over to take the orders and says to me (a male with a jacket and tie), "What will the lady be having tonight?"
(My wife is an intelligent human with a doctorate and she is actually capable of ordering at a restaurant herself). So, I said, "Beats the S...T out of me. Why don't you ask her?"



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That is great.

In an effort to not hijack this thread completely, I will start another one a recent experience, but I will add my two cents, which is that I generally agree with the thought that "expensive" does not mean "fine dining" and "pretentious" is never something that I need. Ever.
G gigondassMember
Considering that I had the pleasure of dining at both Michael Mina and Gary Danko in San Francisco last week, I'd say yes. Then again, considering the meal I had at Martini House in St. Helena later, I'd say maybe not.

The food and service in San Francisco was stellar and hardly pretentious. The meal at Martini House was fine (not up to the quality in SF however) but the service was rather bizarre. We had a later reservation (9pm) and the waiter interrupted our conversation at least five times and seemed to be attempting to get us out of the restaurant even prior to ordering dessert. We were paced to leave at around 11pm, a time which should be appropriate for a dinner at a supposed fine dining establishment especially considering turning the table was not an issue.

Frankly, I found it pretty annoying. Not to mention the supposed sommelier couldn't have been older that about 25. LOL. I've enjoyed more wine than he's ever seen........
winetarelliwinetarelliMember
GA brings up a good point: patrons should not be rushed. Rarely have I been. I've been in restaurants at 1am where they nominally stopped taking reservations at 10pm. I've had 5 hour meals... 6:30pm to 11:30pm. Allowing this to happen I put into the category not of professional service, but rather of "going with the flow" -- something I find very important.
C countmourvedreMember
Everyone has a unique definition and perspective on fine or "formal" dining. My take was:
    1. True FD restaurants are a microscopic piece of the total dining landscape.
    2.The food is important, but if you don't have all the trappings of style and substance in the dining room and the level of service to go along with it you don't have fine or formal dining. Or to put it in other terms, if Thomas Keller got together with Mario Batali and Wolfgang Puck and served their style of food in an Applebee's setting.....you see where I'm going?
    3. If you allow shorts, hats, flipflops etc. you are not fine dining.4. Restaurants calling themselves fine dining that are really upscale casual (God, I hate that term!) are an affront to me. Prime steaks and high prices don't make a fine dining establishment.


Yes you can categorize restaurants into neat little groups. Pick up a copy of Restaurant Business magazine and see for yourself.

Thank you Senor Winetarelli...you prove my point precisely. Servers in t-shirts...you with no socks...the classic dumbing down and casualization of the American dining...uh feeding scene. Sad.

Fine dining exists everywhere...I guess (like Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean), but a far greater percentage of FD restaurants reside in the more affluent and larger metropolitan areas.

Oh , and here's a little addendum to my original post. To dine in the grand style or what I believe true fine dining to be...You can't do it in less than two hours for a party of two. A fully booked fine dining restaurant should do no more than two turns an evening...maybe less.

Chew on that!
S sandyfitzgeraldMember
I agree on several fronts with what has been said. First, attire. The dress code in Colorado has sadly become "casual to the point of tacky". Fine dining is not going to a supposed upscale restaurant(Mortons)for dinner on Sturday evening and people are wearing Nebraska sweatsuits with flipflops.

Second, is overbearing waiters whose only desire seems to be table flipping and pushing patrons out in less than an hour.

If either of these conditions exists, it's not fine dining regardless of the menu, food preparation or wine lists.
winetarelliwinetarelliMember
CM,
You seem really to care about this, but for reasons that escape me... and I would wager most other people on this board.

Your quote:
quote:
Thank you Senor Winetarelli...you prove my point precisely. Servers in t-shirts...you with no socks...the classic dumbing down and casualization of the American dining...uh feeding scene. Sad.

Now, you may want, when you go out to a nice restaurant, to be forced to wear certain clothing... but I'll take a restaurant where everyone is having a good time as opposed to having kids wearing clip-on ties (or having kids at all, frankly)... any day of the week. Pretension for pretension's sake is, to me, and I believe to many, silly and a relic best done away with.

But, the thing that you seem to have a real problem with is that lack of pretension does not translate to lack of quality of experience for many people. I'm perfectly happy not calling most of the best restaurants in San Francisco (or London, or Europe outside of Paris) "fine dining" if they miss by your deffinition. You want to call Boulevard and ame "casual upscale" -- fine with me... I'll be eating my Michelin starred casual upscale food all the way to the... (I would say bank, but those are really expensive restaurants...)

Just about the best meal of my life was at a ** Michelin that I wore shorts to (Vila Joya, Albufuiera, Algarve, Portugal). If such an experience is not your cup of tea, fine. But your distain for it is troubling. "Feeding scene" -- really?
board-oboard-oMember
It's the whole experience, not any one facet. There's a place in Chinatown with outstanding food, but it's not fine dining. The food qualifies, but the tables are close together, the place is too noisy, the place's ambience leaves much to be desired.

Fine dining is an elegant, relaxed experience. I don't have to wear a suit, but if people want to come in dressed like slobs, it's not fine dining. It might still be excellent food, but it's not the whole package.

I'm sure everyone of us who attended the Mas d'en Gil dinner at Le Perigord in 2006 would agree that was a fine dining experience. I know you wouldn't get that consensus if the place were noisy, tables jammed together, or populated with people in shorts and flip-flops.
C countmourvedreMember
Dr. Winetarelli,
I've been in the business for decades and I know about what I speak. If you like dining out then do it. I prefer dining in, cooking my own food and spending the money on good wine. If and when I go out... it's to high end restaurants (1 or 2 times/year). To "dress up" is to make it special. It's not pretension...it shows class and makes your parents look like they accomplished something raising their kids properly. The quality of upscale restaurants is not what it used to be (meaning less quality)and if you don't want to wear a jacket, tie, or socks (oh, please) do so.

But thank you for confirming EVERYTHING I said about the dumbing down of the American FEEDER. The mirror never lies.

By the way, I feel that rating restaurants with stars is akin to the 100pt. rating system for wine....assinine and archaic.

Count Mourvedre has spoken!
glennkglennkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Count Mourvedre:
To "dress up" is to make it special. It's not pretension...it shows class and makes your parents look like they accomplished something raising their kids properly.
So you simply need to dress up to show class and to prove your parents raised you right??? You have a strange set of values count.

Count GlennK has spoken!!!!
C cdrMember
William Burbank? Come on, that is not your real name. It sounds like the name of some square jawed, dashing Doctor on One Life to Live.

Count, time has passed you by. I too lament the defining down of deviance and the service slide, but it is what it is. I will go to one of these "fine dining" establishments when I want to get pampered. I will take a casual, clean, well run restaurant with high quality food any day. That's just the lifestyle I and most Americans live now, unless they are named William Burbank and fancy themselves a Count.
flwinoflwinoMember
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by winetarelli:

I'm glad I didn't feel out of place in khakis, a collared short sleve shirt, and loafers without socks.


Well, it really depends on what loafers we are talking about here. Wink

It is always about the shoes! I'm thinking a nice pair of Ferragamos would work well. Razz


I'm missing it. Why socks? What are they? We don't wear socks in South Florida, Wink even going out to Fine Dining.
flwinoflwinoMember
The dress code in Florida has sadly become "casual to the point of tacky". Fine dining is not going to a supposed upscale restaurantfor dinner on Sturday evening and people are wearing base ball hats, and many of these are worn backwards. Just like their brains. Why backwards? Why wear a hat indoors any how?

what really gets me, is more than 3/4 of teh hat wears are over 45 years old. hey, where were that brought up?

The Fd establishments doon't even ask these jerks to remove the hat!

end of rant
C countmourvedreMember
It's obvious to me that Glenn K. eats at Mimi's Cafe, one of those Orange County culinary hotspots....perfect! And the beat goes on.

and as for you CDR, my name IS William Burbank and I AM Count Mourvedre. Have your people call my people and we'll do lunch. How about Taylor's Refresher in downtown St. Helena about an hour up the road from you?

Hey, I got exactly what I wanted from this piece and you restaurant know-it-all wannabes can talk your trash, but the Count from Louisiana is going to enjoy his Shrimp and Grits now in peace.

Until next time....bye bye now.
pinotlvrpinotlvrMember
quote:
Originally posted by Florida Wino:
The dress code in Florida has sadly become "casual to the point of tacky".

It all depends on how attractive she is Big Grin

Fine dining is not going to a supposed upscale restaurantfor dinner on Sturday evening and people are wearing base ball hats, and many of these are worn backwards. Just like their brains. Why backwards? Why wear a hat indoors any how?

To hide hair loss - ok..I don't wear them to nice restaurants

what really gets me, is more than 3/4 of teh hat wears are over 45 years old. hey, where were that brought up?

The Fd establishments doon't even ask these jerks to remove the hat!

end of rant
glennkglennkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Count Mourvedre:
It's obvious to me that Glenn K. eats at Mimi's Cafe, one of those Orange County culinary hotspots....perfect! And the beat goes on.
Count Pretentious,

I have not had the pleasure of dinning at a Mimi’s café so I would not want to comment on the whether it’s a nice place or not. That would be pretentious of me. My parents didn’t raise me that way. Wink
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