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I think if individual families or people want to postpone Christmas to June, they could certainly agree to do so, and it might even be a really smart thing to do rather than hold family get-togethers later this month.  But if any attempt was made to do it on a state or national level, you'd read thundering Tweets about the liberal "War on Christmas" and you'd have uprisings on certain TV networks, etc.

You can't change the date of Christmas any more than you can change the date of Yom Kippur, New Years Day or Eid.

You can change the way you decide to observe these days and that's what's necessary at the moment.

Don't be stupid or selfish. That should be life at all times, but especially now. My brother in law wanted to spend christmas with us, so last week he flew to Toronto from San Francisco and is spending 14 days in a rented condo to isolate. Yes not everyone can do stuff like that but shucks darn. That means Christmas 2020 is as messed up as the rest of the year. Get over it and see you after everyone gets inoculated.

With the first vaccines coming out as 2 dose vaccines, I was wondering how that might work.  If 10 million doses are delivered in December, do they immediately vaccinate 10 million people with the first dose, or only 5 million and hold the other 5 million for the second dose three weeks later?  Since production is ramping up, I suspect they could do the former, thus vaccinating more people from the start.

@Rothko posted:

With the first vaccines coming out as 2 dose vaccines, I was wondering how that might work.  If 10 million doses are delivered in December, do they immediately vaccinate 10 million people with the first dose, or only 5 million and hold the other 5 million for the second dose three weeks later?  Since production is ramping up, I suspect they could do the former, thus vaccinating more people from the start.

The short answer is each state decides how they wish to deploy the vaccine.

The funny thing is, that is correct.   We are at the cusp of defeating this virus.  But before we can get enough vaccines into people's arms, many many more people are going to die.

I just don't understand the folks who are going out to restaurants, bars, parties, etc. and putting their family members (especially older folks) at risk.  There are so many people who are going to die who would survive if they just hunkered down for a few more months and were able to get the vaccine.

Can you imagine knowing that Grandma or Grandpa died from Covid in January or February when an effective vaccine was available like a month later for them?

@irwin posted:

Right on both accounts.  I think if Oprah Winfrey would get a shot on tv, it would be a good message for those persons who admire her.  And she could be followed by Dr. Fauci, Bill gates, Warren Buffett.  Not sure who is the most respected American

I think George Soros should get vaccinated on live TV and tell the camera that it's important for everyone to get vaccinated because where we go one we go all.

You know, just to fvck with the cultists.

Really, how much?   I bought some great swampland in Florida recently, so a bridge would be a nice addition.

Seriously, of course no one thinks that this NY Time link can tell you when you are going to get the vaccine.  It just gives you a good indication as to how many people might be in line before you, based on the various factors.   

It doesn't seem to account for the 40% or so of Americans who are likely to either not want the vaccine at all, or want to wait until the rest of us have been vaccinated for a while to see how it goes. 

I also wonder if certain people (ultra-wealthy, famous stars, politicians, etc.) will get special access.  I remember at the beginning of the pandemic when no one could seem to get a Covid test, there were lots of "special" folks getting the tests.  I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens with the vaccine.  You know, like a really big donor to a hospital group calls up the CEO and asks about getting the vaccine for himself and his family so he can go skiing in Switzerland.  Stuff like that.

@Rothko posted:

I also wonder if certain people (ultra-wealthy, famous stars, politicians, etc.) will get special access.  I remember at the beginning of the pandemic when no one could seem to get a Covid test, there were lots of "special" folks getting the tests.  I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens with the vaccine.  You know, like a really big donor to a hospital group calls up the CEO and asks about getting the vaccine for himself and his family so he can go skiing in Switzerland.  Stuff like that.

"Come on, all the long distance lines are down? What about the satellite? Is it snowing in space? Don't you have some kind of a line that you keep open for emergencies, or for celebrities? I'm both. I'm a celebrity in an emergency!"  --Bill Murray

With a vaccine literally getting authorized today or tomorrow, but with very limited amounts available to the public, I am reminded of Quint's famous monologue from Jaws, where he's talking about his ship, the Indianapolis, was torpedoed and the crew in the water was getting eaten by sharks:

Quint: ... Noon the fifth day, Mr. Hooper, a Lockheed Ventura saw us, he swung in low and he saw us. He's a young pilot, a lot younger than Mr. Hooper, anyway he saw us and come in low. And three hours later a big fat PBY comes down and start to pick us up. You know that was the time I was most frightened? Waitin' for my turn. I'll never put on a lifejacket again. So, eleven hundred men went in the water, three hundred and sixteen men come out, the sharks took the rest, June the 29, 1945. Anyway, we delivered the bomb.

From the LA Times: "New Hampshire House speaker dies of COVID-19; mass exposure among lawmakers feared"

"The speaker of the New Hampshire House of Representatives died of COVID-19, a medical examiner ruled Thursday, a day after the Republican’s unexpected death, raising concerns that other members of one of the world’s largest legislative bodies might have been exposed at their swearing-in last week.

"The swearing-in of the House and the 24-member state Senate was held outdoors last week at the University of New Hampshire because of the COVID-19 pandemic. Hinch was photographed wearing a mask, though it did not cover his nostrils.

More than a quarter of House members, most of them Democrats, skipped the ceremony after learning the day before that several Republican lawmakers had tested positive for the coronavirus after attending an indoor GOP caucus meeting Nov. 20, at which many attendees weren’t wearing masks.

At least one Republican blamed Hinch’s death on a culture pushed by anti-mask forces. 'I believe the peer pressure exerted by those in the Republican Party who refuse to take reasonable precautions is the ultimate cause of Speaker Hinch’s passing,' Republican Rep. William Marsh, a retired doctor, said in an email to the Associated Press."

LIVE FREE AND STUPID AND DIE. So it goes.

We are rounding the corner on this, though I think real safety for people in my demographic group (over 65) won't be achieved until late in 2021. So at this point, who wants to be the soldier who dies the week before the war ends? I've being more careful than ever.

So the Pfizer vaccine has rolled out; Moderna should get approved this week and start rolling as well.  I think we have reached the beginning of the end of the pandemic.

I have a family member who is a nurse at a large hospital complex and she will probably be getting the vaccine in the next week or so.  I wish we had more for everyone, but we are just going to have to wait a few more months before everyone who wants one can get one.

In an ordinary world, we would want high-ranking White House, Supreme Court, House and Senate, and Military folks to be in the front-line for the vaccine.  It's just that we have a White House that has consistently ignored or downplayed the pandemic, so the idea that they would be scrambling to get dibs on the vaccine for what they've proclaimed was a "hoax" is jarring.

Now, if the President hadn't gotten Covid in October, think he'd want to be first in line?

@Rothko posted:

In an ordinary world, we would want high-ranking White House, Supreme Court, House and Senate, and Military folks to be in the front-line for the vaccine.  It's just that we have a White House that has consistently ignored or downplayed the pandemic, so the idea that they would be scrambling to get dibs on the vaccine for what they've proclaimed was a "hoax" is jarring.

Now, if the President hadn't gotten Covid in October, think he'd want to be first in line?

Also, the current administration will all be out on their asses in 37 days so why waster precious vaccine on a gaggle of lame ducks?

Operation Warp Speed:  Look at the food distribution system in our country.  Go to the local grocery store and they always seem to have a supply of fresh apples, oranges, and other produce.  I live in Maryland.  For most of the year, most of this stuff comes from far away. Grapes from Chile.  Avocados from Mexico.  Bananas from Costa Rica.  If that can be done, somehow it seems we should be able to distribute the vaccines.

I would be surprised if I get the vaccine by March and people in their 40s and 50s perhaps by June. This is a massive undertaking especially, to answer Irwin's question, is that vegetables have normal storage temperature requirements while the first vaccine out of the gate requires storage at 90 degrees below zero. Making it harder to transport and to store. The Moderna vaccine requiring a more normal zero degree storage temperature will help but still you're talking about I would guess 400 million doses.

My thinking is there is around 320 million people in the US. Around a third will never get the vaccine for whatever reason. So therefore you looking around 200 million people who will get vaccinated and currently the vaccines require a second dose.

But to follow up on flwino's point, yes, an incompetent administration that downplayed the seriousness of this virus for half a year, flaunted and scoffed at mask-wearing for and touted patent medicine cures did not help the situation.

Last edited by The Old Man

"But to follow up on flwino's point, yes, an incompetent administration that downplayed the seriousness of this virus for half a year, flaunted and scoffed at mask-wearing for and touted patent medicine cures did not help the situation."

Did not help?  That is awfully mild.  Trump did not cause the virus to exist. I think the administration did some things that were good, such as funding vaccine development.  But, failing to be a leader by wearing a mask, holding maskless rallies, criticizing the science and the scientists, spewing lies and creating super spreader events, talking up non-scientific cures and treatments, most certainly caused deaths and illness, beyond any peradventure.

@irwin posted:

"But to follow up on flwino's point, yes, an incompetent administration that downplayed the seriousness of this virus for half a year, flaunted and scoffed at mask-wearing for and touted patent medicine cures did not help the situation."

Did not help?  That is awfully mild.  Trump did not cause the virus to exist. I think the administration did some things that were good, such as funding vaccine development.  But, failing to be a leader by wearing a mask, holding maskless rallies, criticizing the science and the scientists, spewing lies and creating super spreader events, talking up non-scientific cures and treatments, most certainly caused deaths and illness, beyond any peradventure.

I may be missing something here, but I don't get why Trump is getting so much credit for funding vaccine research when lots of countries did that, something that just makes sense frankly.  And the first vaccines were developed in Germany and the UK, not the US.  Not to deny him some degree of credit but he only did what everyone else who was in a position to do so did, no?

@bman posted:

I may be missing something here, but I don't get why Trump is getting so much credit for funding vaccine research when lots of countries did that, something that just makes sense frankly.  And the first vaccines were developed in Germany and the UK, not the US.  Not to deny him some degree of credit but he only did what everyone else who was in a position to do so did, no?

I guess he wants credit because someone in his administration came up with silly name, "Operation Warp Speed." After all no other countries did that so a little credit where credit is due.

Looks like I am in Group 1c for the vaccine (non-frontline essential worker category).  Along with about 85 million other folks.

I am no fan of the Trump Administration's handling (or lack thereof) of the pandemic, but I will give credit where credit is due and say that Operation Warp Speed (bad name by the way) was successful in that the US Government fronted the production of vaccines before we knew whether they would be approved or not.  Imagine if Pfizer and Moderna had run their Phase 3 trials and announced this month that their vaccines were 95% efficacious, but then said it was going to be 6 months to start production lines and another 3 before any meaningful amount of vaccine could be produced.

Of course, the Administration did screw up by not locking in more Pfizer vaccine when it could have.  I heard that they wanted to hedge their bets by spreading the funding around, but that turned out to be a bad call.

And now we have this new British variant of Covid that seems to be much more contagious.

@Rothko posted:

Looks like I am in Group 1c for the vaccine (non-frontline essential worker category).  Along with about 85 million other folks.

I am no fan of the Trump Administration's handling (or lack thereof) of the pandemic, but I will give credit where credit is due and say that Operation Warp Speed (bad name by the way) was successful in that the US Government fronted the production of vaccines before we knew whether they would be approved or not.  Imagine if Pfizer and Moderna had run their Phase 3 trials and announced this month that their vaccines were 95% efficacious, but then said it was going to be 6 months to start production lines and another 3 before any meaningful amount of vaccine could be produced.

Of course, the Administration did screw up by not locking in more Pfizer vaccine when it could have.  I heard that they wanted to hedge their bets by spreading the funding around, but that turned out to be a bad call.

And now we have this new British variant of Covid that seems to be much more contagious.

Canada and I believe Europe also fronted production of the vaccines months before approval. Canada committed funding vaccine development a month before Trump did and I believe that Germany did so before Canada. So Trump gets credit for copying what others did weeks before him, which I suppose counts for something.

@bman posted:

Canada and I believe Europe also fronted production of the vaccines months before approval. Canada committed funding vaccine development a month before Trump did and I believe that Germany did so before Canada. So Trump gets credit for copying what others did weeks before him, which I suppose counts for something.

Given the crazy things we've seen this Administration do in the last 9 months on Covid, it was refreshing that they did something right instead of something drastically wrong.

@irwin posted:

"But to follow up on flwino's point, yes, an incompetent administration that downplayed the seriousness of this virus for half a year, flaunted and scoffed at mask-wearing for and touted patent medicine cures did not help the situation."

Did not help?  That is awfully mild.  Trump did not cause the virus to exist. I think the administration did some things that were good, such as funding vaccine development.  But, failing to be a leader by wearing a mask, holding maskless rallies, criticizing the science and the scientists, spewing lies and creating super spreader events, talking up non-scientific cures and treatments, most certainly caused deaths and illness, beyond any peradventure.

The fact that there are now 20 different mutations, with 3 predominant strains running throughout the US shows what happens when you have an incompetent administration.  Ditto the UK who now has a potentially even more virulent strain of covid-19. 

What's the point of developing a cure if you give the virus a vector for making the cure worthless?  Unless you believe in the conspiracy that it's all big pharma from the start and they just came up with the perfect plan via Trump to lock in profits for years to come.

After getting his shot yesterday, President Elect Biden said:

"I think the administration deserves some credit getting this off the ground with Operation Warp Speed," Biden said.

"This give us great hope," he said.

Wow.  A person who can actually give credit to another person! A politician who does not feel the need to personally attack everyone else as inferior to him! A President-Elect who makes an intelligent comment.

And, here is VP Elect Harris:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertai...vid19-063951416.html

Instead of snarling at Senators Rubio and Graham, who downplayed the covid pandemic in their haste to kowtow to the outgoing President, she refused to criticize them for getting vaccines.

Is this a return to the “kinder, gentler America” of which Pres. George HW Bush spoke in his first inaugural?  “America is never wholly herself unless she is engaged in high moral principle. We as a people have such a purpose today. It is to make kinder the face of the nation and gentler the face of the world.”

Is the new administration going to dispense with the constant barrage of attacks on others?

Geez.  This is so revolutionary.

Last edited by irwin
@winedrmike posted:

Got round 1 of the Moderna vaccine first thing this morning, despite having had Covid in March. Beat Dr. Fauci to it.  No issues or side effects so far.  Another 4 weeks and I’m ready for an offline.

That's great.  I guess you are a "front line" health care worker.  Not sure what a "rear line" or "side line" health care worker is.

Has your sense of taste returned any?

Here's some pearls of wisdom from Thistlin Tom, "I keep disbelieving what I am seeing with all the cancellations of events and work activities. Yes there is a little more risk for older people with underlying conditions, but it is still a flu and the cases are still on the small side. Some precautions are beneficial, but it is like the world is going to shut down for a month. Let's get a little sanity back."

There's an interesting picture circulating on the internet of a flight tracking website that shows maybe 25 times as many planes in the air over the US as over Europe and Canada.  Makes it easier to understand why the US has several times more cases and deaths and why the US will likely have tens of thousands more deaths than in Europe and Canada in the near future and possibly longer.

@bman posted:

There's an interesting picture circulating on the internet of a flight tracking website that shows maybe 25 times as many planes in the air over the US as over Europe and Canada.  Makes it easier to understand why the US has several times more cases and deaths and why the US will likely have tens of thousands more deaths than in Europe and Canada in the near future and possibly longer.

Think more than half of the Americans feel its over, they won't catch COVID, or too damn stupid to listen to facts and science.  Even folks here [many tourists] just plain ignore rules on masks, closeness etc.

@flwino posted:

Think more than half of the Americans feel its over, they won't catch COVID, or too damn stupid to listen to facts and science.  Even folks here [many tourists] just plain ignore rules on masks, closeness etc.

Including many Canadians, probably.  While most past snowbirds have stayed home, according to the news here, many have gone south nonetheless, albeit not in their cars.

@csm posted:

Wasn’t hard for Canadians to get cars across the border.  Just took a little effort. A Few guys from my club put their cars on a truck and took a helicopter to Niagara Falls. Picked up their cars and headed to Florida.  Cost them some money but they did it.

Not hard for Canadians who can afford helicopters and car shipping, then!  But yes, some are doing that. 

3 cases of the new British strain ID’d in Ontario. All related to travel.  Federal government allows people to land here with no testing (except in Alberta) and requires those arriving to quarantine on essentially the honour system.  Apparently because a false negative is more dangerous than no test at all. Not surprising we’re seeing the new variant.

Last edited by csm
@csm posted:

3 cases of the new British strain ID’d in Ontario. All related to travel.  Federal government allows people to land here with no testing (except in Alberta) and requires those arriving to quarantine on essentially the honour system.  Apparently because a false negative is more dangerous than no test at all. Not surprising we’re seeing the new variant.

Testing would serve no purpose given the delays in results.  Those in quarantine are monitored regularly by phone and knocks on the door.  I'm not aware of any other democratic country doing things any differently than are we.  The British strain was always going to arrive here at some point, just as Covid-19 arrived everywhere.  We're doing what we can.

There are rapid tests. Those would serve a purpose. Apparently health Canada thinks it’s unsafe to spit in a tube for some reason.

And those in quarantine are not remotely monitored. They may receive 2 phone calls over 2 weeks but many receive one and no one is knocking on doors these days. At least among the people I know that are and have had to quarantine this fall and winter.

@csm posted:

There are rapid tests. Those would serve a purpose. Apparently health Canada thinks it’s unsafe to spit in a tube for some reason.

And those in quarantine are not remotely monitored. They may receive 2 phone calls over 2 weeks but many receive one and no one is knocking on doors these days. At least among the people I know that are and have had to quarantine this fall and winter.

I'm sure there are holes in the system but several FB friends and others have said they've received a number of calls and visits while quarantining.  In any case, we are doing as much as everyone else and the variation on the virus would arrive here in any case.

I know the new strain is more contagious.  But I can't find any article that says "how" it is more contagious.   

Does it require less contact time with an infected person to become infected?  Does it mean that it takes a lower viral load to infect a person?  Does it mean that it can be transmitted farther by an infected person coughing or speaking?

@bman posted:

I'm sure there are holes in the system but several FB friends and others have said they've received a number of calls and visits while quarantining.  In any case, we are doing as much as everyone else and the variation on the virus would arrive here in any case.

Frankly, I don’t care what others are doing. I care what Canada is doing, which isn’t enough IMO. I don’t get what is so hard about testing everyone that arrives here even if it’s a rapid test. I don’t get it. No one can tell me it’s better than nothing. I can’t drive 3 hours east to go and see my family but people can go to Florida or Cuba for a vacation, come back here and receive no test and virtually no scrutiny of their requirement to quarantine.  Two friends of mine got back from Palm Springs 10 days ago. Have received not a single call.

Anyway hopefully we’ll all have a vaccine in 10 months.  

@Rothko posted:

I know the new strain is more contagious.  But I can't find any article that says "how" it is more contagious.   

Does it require less contact time with an infected person to become infected?  Does it mean that it takes a lower viral load to infect a person?  Does it mean that it can be transmitted farther by an infected person coughing or speaking?

Friend of mine  (scientist) tells me it requires a lower viral load to infect someone.  It’s apparently, and this is hearsay so forgive me if there is anything not true here, normal course for it to mutate like this. Viruses like this become more contagious but less deadly over time, which is the reason for the mutations.  You need live hosts for the virus to spread more efficiently which is its goal.

Bman, apparently the Canada cases were linked to UK travel after all. From an article on the G&M website today:

Two communities in Ontario and one in British Columbia now have confirmed cases of a COVID-19 variant that has spread rapidly in Britain and forced the government there to impose more severe lockdowns.

However, Ontario officials said Sunday the cases are connected to travel, rather than community spread — correcting information first provided on Saturday. A couple that was diagnosed with the new variant provided more information to contact tracers, and said they had met with a recent traveller to the United Kingdom.

full article:

https://www.theglobeandmail.co...ritain-confirmed-in/

@vint posted:

Bman, apparently the Canada cases were linked to UK travel after all. From an article on the G&M website today:

Two communities in Ontario and one in British Columbia now have confirmed cases of a COVID-19 variant that has spread rapidly in Britain and forced the government there to impose more severe lockdowns.

However, Ontario officials said Sunday the cases are connected to travel, rather than community spread — correcting information first provided on Saturday. A couple that was diagnosed with the new variant provided more information to contact tracers, and said they had met with a recent traveller to the United Kingdom.

full article:

https://www.theglobeandmail.co...ritain-confirmed-in/

Interesting.  I stand corrected.  But still, the variant of the virus is gonna come here and everywhere else, I expect.  It's just the way it is regardless of the precautions we might take.  And I bet it won't be the last variant we see either.

We and others have a long way to go yet before life resumes any semblance of normal. 

On another matter, guess what I got for Christmas from my son!!!!

@bman posted:

Testing would serve no purpose given the delays in results.  Those in quarantine are monitored regularly by phone and knocks on the door.  I'm not aware of any other democratic country doing things any differently than are we.  The British strain was always going to arrive here at some point, just as Covid-19 arrived everywhere.  We're doing what we can.

bman, I have to disagree with you here.  Both provincial and federal governments have mismanaged this beyond comprehension.  

if they were actually serious about people not seeing each other and travelling, they would have banned flying, imposed curfews, and actually done something as they have in many European countries.  Spain and Italy were actually looking ok until they dropped their guards over the summer. Our ‘leaders’ have closed small business for 2 months and asked people nicely not to get together.  Judging by the cases, an absolute colossal failure. Go to any construction site, manufacturing plant, factory, and even large office and many protocols are not being followed, if at all.  How do you move and install large items (appliances, fireplaces, furnaces, plumbing, electrical??) and remain 6 feet apart? Costco, ikea, and Walmart are packed beyond comprehension????? Only our ‘leaders’ created this. They went for the low hanging fruit to appease the public and make it look like they were doing something when closing small business.

path of least resistance  

I can tell you from personal experience that many are not following these suggested guidelines. (Notice I didn’t call them rules)  People are travelling across the country and south to all the Caribbean countries.  Many cases are being attributed to family members picking up relatives at the airport before their ‘quarantine’
Guess what? It’s allowed so it can’t be that bad and I don’t disagree with them at all.  If the government was serious they would literally shut down and impose curfews but......but you may piss off the real $

And for the snowbirds, it’s very ease to ship a car to Florida for $1500 and just fly.

@mangiare posted:

bman, I have to disagree with you here.  Both provincial and federal governments have mismanaged this beyond comprehension.  

if they were actually serious about people not seeing each other and travelling, they would have banned flying, imposed curfews, and actually done something as they have in many European countries.  Spain and Italy were actually looking ok until they dropped their guards over the summer. Our ‘leaders’ have closed small business for 2 months and asked people nicely not to get together.  Judging by the cases, an absolute colossal failure. Go to any construction site, manufacturing plant, factory, and even large office and many protocols are not being followed, if at all.  How do you move and install large items (appliances, fireplaces, furnaces, plumbing, electrical??) and remain 6 feet apart? Costco, ikea, and Walmart are packed beyond comprehension????? Only our ‘leaders’ created this. They went for the low hanging fruit to appease the public and make it look like they were doing something when closing small business.

path of least resistance  

I can tell you from personal experience that many are not following these suggested guidelines. (Notice I didn’t call them rules)  People are travelling across the country and south to all the Caribbean countries.  Many cases are being attributed to family members picking up relatives at the airport before their ‘quarantine’
Guess what? It’s allowed so it can’t be that bad and I don’t disagree with them at all.  If the government was serious they would literally shut down and impose curfews but......but you may piss off the real $

And for the snowbirds, it’s very ease to ship a car to Florida for $1500 and just fly.

I don't disagree that the quarantine could be more vigorously enforced and limits on the number of people in the stores allowed to be open as well.  But I don't think that the degree of enforcement you are suggesting would work.  Resources to enforce the restrictions might not be sufficient and in any case, a certain degree of compliance from the population is required for almost any such restrictions to work.  The government could call for all flights to be grounded and maybe they should.

I can't agree though that our handling of the virus has been a "colossal failure", at least according to the data.  We always compare ourselves to the US and of course we are doing a lot better than them, unsurprisingly given the truly colossal failure of most political leaders there.  But comparing us to other countries, both OECD and non-OECD shows that we are doing relatively well. 

Covid death rates - Statista

We could certainly do better and perhaps more draconian measures and enforcement of them should be imposed but I think you are overstating the degree of failure of our federal and provincial governments, except perhaps Alberta which seems to have handled it worse than others.  And the Atlantic provinces seem to have handled it very well indeed.

I am not overstating.  Just stating the facts.

It’s interesting that when it may affect you, It’s draconian.  Our leaders have taken away the right to work for millions of people, what would you call that?

My family in downtown Rome are not allowed to leave their apartment together.  One at a time and only for essentials for one hour max ie not Costco or ikea. Fines are given regularly and you will be stopped and questioned.

if we’re going to get ahead before the vaccine more needs to be done

or just open it right up and say f-it.  

@mangiare posted:

I am not overstating.  Just stating the facts.

It’s interesting that when it may affect you, It’s draconian.  Our leaders have taken away the right to work for millions of people, what would you call that?

My family in downtown Rome are not allowed to leave their apartment together.  One at a time and only for essentials for one hour max ie not Costco or ikea. Fines are given regularly and you will be stopped and questioned.

if we’re going to get ahead before the vaccine more needs to be done

or just open it right up and say f-it.  

M, are you suggesting we should do what you say is happening in Rome and force people to stay in their homes for the months it will take for everyone to get the vaccine?  Is that what is happening in Italy?  If so, is the government giving them money as our government is doing, for many if not most?

As for me, the current shutdown doesn't affect me much at all, actually, as I'm retired.  So it's not so draconian for me. 

@bman posted:

I'm sure there are holes in the system but several FB friends and others have said they've received a number of calls and visits while quarantining.  In any case, we are doing as much as everyone else and the variation on the virus would arrive here in any case.

My brother in law flew from San Francisco to Toronto for Christmas. Did his quarantine at an Airbnb. He's heavily into tech (MSc from MIT in computer science) and took a long look at the app. He said that the quarantine app tracked his location through the phone (he didn't leave the condo for 15 days). No knocks but did get phonecalls. Everyone else I know has had knocks as far as I know.

I suspect that if it does track your phone and you were shown to have movement you would get a knock...

My brother in law flew from San Francisco to Toronto for Christmas. Did his quarantine at an Airbnb. He's heavily into tech (MSc from MIT in computer science) and took a long look at the app. He said that the quarantine app tracked his location through the phone (he didn't leave the condo for 15 days). No knocks but did get phonecalls. Everyone else I know has had knocks as far as I know.

I suspect that if it does track your phone and you were shown to have movement you would get a knock...

your phone tracks you for google or apple within 5 feet of where you have your phone.

I have misplaced my phone more often then not, and the track my phone feature even tells me that my phone might be on the second floor of a two story building.

My brother in law flew from San Francisco to Toronto for Christmas. Did his quarantine at an Airbnb. He's heavily into tech (MSc from MIT in computer science) and took a long look at the app. He said that the quarantine app tracked his location through the phone (he didn't leave the condo for 15 days). No knocks but did get phonecalls. Everyone else I know has had knocks as far as I know.

I suspect that if it does track your phone and you were shown to have movement you would get a knock...

Your brother in law's experience aligns with what I've heard from others.  In other words, when it comes to ensuring people in quarantine stay put, it more or less works but is not perfect.

@bman posted:

Your brother in law's experience aligns with what I've heard from others.  In other words, when it comes to ensuring people in quarantine stay put, it more or less works but is not perfect.

you should see south korea, where you literally just sit in a single solitary 300 sq foot hotel room for 14 days and they bring you food and water.

better work on those meditation skills.

My brother in law flew from San Francisco to Toronto for Christmas. Did his quarantine at an Airbnb. He's heavily into tech (MSc from MIT in computer science) and took a long look at the app. He said that the quarantine app tracked his location through the phone (he didn't leave the condo for 15 days). No knocks but did get phonecalls. Everyone else I know has had knocks as far as I know.

I suspect that if it does track your phone and you were shown to have movement you would get a knock...

Was he required to download the app? If so, is he a Canadian citizen?  Also, is it the Covid-19 app many have downloaded or a quarantine specific one?  Haven’t heard or anyone else having to download any app to quarantine.  

@bman posted:

Don't most people carry their phones when they leave their house?  And what else could be done to plug that gap?

They do.  But if you’re knowingly breaching quarantine, I suspect you would not.

Could adopt the approach in many other countries where if you leave the country, you quarantine in a hotel where you are monitored on your nickel.  And then test people.  Once you have a couple of negative tests, you can leave. Would certainly limit travel to what truly is essential.

@csm posted:

Was he required to download the app? If so, is he a Canadian citizen?  Also, is it the Covid-19 app many have downloaded or a quarantine specific one?  Haven’t heard or anyone else having to download any app to quarantine.  

Dual citizen, he was required to download and check in every morning certifying that he hadn't moved / left his place of quarantine and had no contact with anyone.

He used instacart for all his groceries which were left by the door and the same for ubereats etc.

Ontario’s Finance Minister is in St Lucia, Quebec’s deputy leader of the liberal party is in Barbados, former federal finance minister Bill Morneau got on a plane to somewhere warm on Boxing Day.  

But everyone else should stay home and socially distance because we’re all in this together right?  This is a special level of tone-deaf douchebaggery even insofar as government is concerned.

@csm posted:

Ontario’s Finance Minister is in St Lucia, Quebec’s deputy leader of the liberal party is in Barbados, former federal finance minister Bill Morneau got on a plane to somewhere warm on Boxing Day.  

But everyone else should stay home and socially distance because we’re all in this together right?  This is a special level of tone-deaf douchebaggery even insofar as government is concerned.

+1 Reminds me of a Jarvis Cocker song.

Last edited by steve8

One can go into a grocery store pretty much any day, and in Maryland, where we do not grow oranges or bananas ever, and in the winter months, very little other produce, the stores are filled with fresh fruits.  Strawberries, blueberries, apples, grapes from Chile, etc.

Let’s take bananas.  For our stores, they typically come from Costa Rica or Honduras.  Someone grows them, tends them, picks them, sticks them in shipping containers, ships them in bigger shipping containers.  They get to some port.  Someone unloads them into a truck. The truck drives around and distributes the crates of bananas to further distribution locations, and from there, they are taken to various stores.  Something like that. Every day.  Every single day.

So, explain to me why we are so far behind in the distribution of the vaccines?  In Israel, they have now vaccinated more than 7% of the population.  Here, it is under 1%.  Yes, they have fewer people and it’s a smaller country.  But they have fewer shippers, fewer distribution centers, etc.  Now, I know that the vaccines require certain conditions and special arrangements for shipping, but I suppose bananas do too.

A good friend of mine, who lives in Israel, same age as I, emailed me today.  He and his wife got their vaccines yesterday at their local health center in Jerusalem.  Neither is a “health care worker” and they aren’t in nursing homes or anything.

If we can ship and distribute fresh bananas from Costa Rica and Honduras every single day (and put a man on the moon) how come we can’t more quickly distribute the vaccines?

It’s not, as they say, rocket science.

@irwin posted:

One can go into a grocery store pretty much any day, and in Maryland, where we do not grow oranges or bananas ever, and in the winter months, very little other produce, the stores are filled with fresh fruits.  Strawberries, blueberries, apples, grapes from Chile, etc.

Let’s take bananas.  For our stores, they typically come from Costa Rica or Honduras.  Someone grows them, tends them, picks them, sticks them in shipping containers, ships them in bigger shipping containers.  They get to some port.  Someone unloads them into a truck. The truck drives around and distributes the crates of bananas to further distribution locations, and from there, they are taken to various stores.  Something like that. Every day.  Every single day.

So, explain to me why we are so far behind in the distribution of the vaccines?  In Israel, they have now vaccinated more than 7% of the population.  Here, it is under 1%.  Yes, they have fewer people and it’s a smaller country.  But they have fewer shippers, fewer distribution centers, etc.  Now, I know that the vaccines require certain conditions and special arrangements for shipping, but I suppose bananas do too.

A good friend of mine, who lives in Israel, same age as I, emailed me today.  He and his wife got their vaccines yesterday at their local health center in Jerusalem.  Neither is a “health care worker” and they aren’t in nursing homes or anything.

If we can ship and distribute fresh bananas from Costa Rica and Honduras every single day (and put a man on the moon) how come we can’t more quickly distribute the vaccines?

It’s not, as they say, rocket science.

My understanding is that when the federal government funded vaccine research they forgot to do planning for distribution. So while Trump says it's the states job to deliver the vaccines to their people, they can only do that once they actually get the vaccines from the feds.

I think that the way to get the vaccines into everyone's arms is not to use the local hospitals and local County health departments, but the large pharmacy chains, like CVS, Walgreens, Costco, Publix, Walmart, etc.   They crank out millions of flu shots every year, and they can quickly set up appointment websites, etc. to handle the Covid vaccines.    Yes, Pfizer might have to just go to hospital facilities with the deep freeze capabilities, but the local pharmacies can handle Moderna and J&J and AstraZeneca (when they are authorized).

@csm posted:

Not like there is much vaccine here to administer anyway....

Umm, not really, given that Canada has administered the 7th most injections globally as of today and we've bought over 400 million doses of various vaccines, more than ten times our population. In fact Canada is being criticised for hogging too much vaccine.

So I think we're good! 

We’re being criticized for buying too much vaccine, but I said there isn’t much vaccine here Mr. pedant. As in on our shores able to be administered. There isn’t much. It’s enough for less than 5% of the population (give or take, didn’t really do the math), so we aren’t “good” and won’t be for some time.

Last edited by csm
@csm posted:

We’re being criticized for buying too much vaccine, but I said there isn’t much vaccine here Mr. pedant. As in on our shores able to be administered. There isn’t much. It’s enough for less than 5% of the population (give or take, didn’t really do the math), so we aren’t “good” and won’t be for some time.

Well, we're getting 1.2 million more doses next month and 6 million by March. That doesn't seem so bad, given that the whole world wants it and the companies need to make the stuff of course. So yeah, small steps now but no smaller than most others according to the data.

Bman, the administration of doses that are available is a disaster.   It’s by appointment only during business hours.  They’ve only administered around 20% of the vaccinations on the ground and took the holidays OFF.  

this should be a wartime effort.  24/7 run by the military.  
Love our country but we do lack hutzpah with these things.  

Vaccine distribution and administration needs to be handled at the federal level.  If the US were attacked by a foreign entity in every state and locale, would a rational person expect that each states’ National Guard be responsible for engaging with and defending the attackers?  Should the federal government only be expected to send weaponry, munitions and funding, but provide zero guidance, communications and manpower?  

What is being overlooked here is that the COVID vaccines are not considered as benign as the flu vaccines.  Offloading this to pharmacy chains, Costcos, Walmarts, grocery stores, etc. isn’t the same as getting a flu shot.  When you get the COVID vaccine, you are supposed to be kept in an observation area with medical personnel for 30-45 mins, who monitor you in case of any allergic reactions.  The locations that provide flu shots would have to build infrastructure (both for appropriate, safe observation as well as for treatment of potential reactions) and procure appropriate medical staffing at every one of their locations.  Multiply that by tens of thousands, and you can understand the scope of the logistical hurdles the private sector entities face in doing this properly and safely.  

Does the federal government have available facilities and manpower to augment what the healthcare systems and state/local govts have?  It’s certainly a number higher than zero.  Yet while Putin’s Bitch golfs and whinges about a supposedly stolen election, people continue to test positive that likely could have avoided it if they’d begun the vaccination process.

@irwin posted:


So, explain to me why we are so far behind in the distribution of the vaccines?  In Israel, they have now vaccinated more than 7% of the population.  Here, it is under 1%.  Yes, they have fewer people and it’s a smaller country.  But they have fewer shippers, fewer distribution centers, etc.  Now, I know that the vaccines require certain conditions and special arrangements for shipping, but I suppose bananas do too.

A good friend of mine, who lives in Israel, same age as I, emailed me today.  He and his wife got their vaccines yesterday at their local health center in Jerusalem.  Neither is a “health care worker” and they aren’t in nursing homes or anything.

If we can ship and distribute fresh bananas from Costa Rica and Honduras every single day (and put a man on the moon) how come we can’t more quickly distribute the vaccines?

It’s not, as they say, rocket science.

Coordination of anything of that scale, either has been done before and min/maxed to such efficiency that it only applies to bananas with potential give or takes, ie you pluck bananas when they're not ripe and you allow for slow transportation over big boats.

vaccines on the other hand, require quicker / more specific forms of transport.  My understanding though, is that the initial leg of transport has indeed been quick.  However the last mile transport has been terrible.

Folks would rather their xmas gifts/exchanges be handled before a vaccine they might not even be able to get until much later.

It's going to be like Covid Testing was at the beginning.  Very difficult to get; lots of stories about "special" people having access while the general public does not.  Then, over the next few months, things will slowly improve. 

Unfortunately, since it appears that many many people have simply given up on preventative measures at this point, it is going to be a race to see whether you get the vaccine or the disease.

@flwino posted:

Send doses to all pharmacies [CVS & Walgreens],  let them inject us like they do for the flu shots!  The states are screwing this up.  Our phone number to call for appointments can't take more the 150 calls before it crashes.

Read my post five up from this one, and you’ll understand why the pharmacies and other entities that provide flu shots aren’t equipped to administer the COVID vaccines.  

The US is now looking at the possibility of giving half-doses of the Moderna vaccine to people ages 18-55, which appears to still be as effective as a full dose.  That would double the supply for that category. 

I wish we could authorize AstraZenaca, like the UK has done.  But I've heard that we probably won't issue an emergency use authorization until April at the earliest.

@Rothko posted:

The US is now looking at the possibility of giving half-doses of the Moderna vaccine to people ages 18-55, which appears to still be as effective as a full dose.  That would double the supply for that category.

I wish we could authorize AstraZenaca, like the UK has done.  But I've heard that we probably won't issue an emergency use authorization until April at the earliest.

Has there been any studies done on the half-doses of the Moderna Vaccine?  I'm too lazy to look for a link

@patespo1 posted:

Has there been any studies done on the half-doses of the Moderna Vaccine?  I'm too lazy to look for a link

Per CNN:  Earlier data showed that binding and neutralizing antibody responses were similar among participants under 55 who received either 100-microgram or 50-microgram doses, Slaoui said. While an FDA briefing document last month also references these “comparable” immune responses from Moderna’s phase 2 study, the full data have not yet been published.

@Rothko posted:

The US is now looking at the possibility of giving half-doses of the Moderna vaccine to people ages 18-55, which appears to still be as effective as a full dose.  That would double the supply for that category.

I wish we could authorize AstraZenaca, like the UK has done.  But I've heard that we probably won't issue an emergency use authorization until April at the earliest.

Is the issue really supply in the US?  It seems, from afar anyway, that it's more about getting the needles into arms.  Anecdotal I know, but my in-laws are eligible, in Florida for 2-3 months this winter, and can't actually get an appointment for the shot, even though there apparently is ample supply on hand.

I think that it is both.  Right now, there are real problems with getting the vaccine to make the "final mile" into the arms of people.  Even if we had a billion doses in the US, we couldn't vaccinate everyone because the states don't have the resources to do so. 

That problem will eventually be solved.  And once it is, we will run out of supply of the vaccine to meet the current demand.  So many will have to wait as more vaccine is manufactured and sent out.

Of course, it is just a matter of timing.  If we were all patient and could wait another 6 months, we'd all be able to get vaccinated.  But no one wants to wait that long.  Especially with a more contagious strain out there, gaining speed as it moves through our population.  And it will be very frustrating when we start to see more people (vaccinated or not) going out and living their lives while the non-vaccinated, Covid-careful people wait for their turns for a shot.

Heck, even if you got a shot today, you are looking about about 40-50 days to get the second shot and then build up your immunity.

@flwino posted:

Rothko, did you get yours?  Quite an article about Palm Beach "rich folks" getting ahead of the curve.  

No.  I don't qualify for the first round of shots in Palm Beach - you have to be 65 or older.  My father-in-law got his though.

What Palm Beach did was start planning for the vaccines months ago, with the Fire Department taking the lead role.  They applied with the County to become a Closed Point of Distribution, and they created an appointment website and were ready to go when the vaccines came to the County.  They got 800 doses for this week, and their appointments were all booked within 30 minutes.  They started vaccinating residents yesterday.  We are going to try to get my mother-in-law an appointment when they get the next batch and can offer more appointments.

Frankly, other towns should be doing the same thing.

My sister, who is a nurse, got her shot yesterday.  My father is getting a shot today.  I just have to be patient.

@flwino posted:

sent my e-mail in for appointment, Mrs. Flwino also qualifies for shots

I sent an email in to the County back on Dec 29th, requesting an appointment for my mother.  Never heard back.  Sent a follow-up email on Jan 4 - got an auto reply that said they'll get back in the order in which emails were received.  Still haven't heard anything.

I'm afraid that the County Health Department may not be a shining example of efficiency.

@Rothko posted:

I sent an email in to the County back on Dec 29th, requesting an appointment for my mother.  Never heard back.  Sent a follow-up email on Jan 4 - got an auto reply that said they'll get back in the order in which emails were received.  Still haven't heard anything.

I'm afraid that the County Health Department may not be a shining example of efficiency.

Typical. "I'm from the government, and here to help you."    Yeah sure

PURPLE and I both qualify for round 1B.  Texas is in rounds 1A and 1B right now.  We're registered with the county health department and waiting in the digital line.  Hopefully soon.

Our city fire department is handling vaccinations in our city.  They pull from the county registration list.  So far they seem fairly organized here.

@steve8 posted:

Are you Floridians aware that Canadian snowbirds are getting vaccinated down there? These irresponsible assholes disregarded the public health rules up here and flew down there for the winter. It sounds like some are even going down there now for shorter periods specifically to get vaccinated.

No proof of residency required. That is just wrong imo.

I've heard that Florida is going to vaccinate non-Florida residents.  We have a lot of snowbirds from New York, New England, etc. that are down here.  I hadn't heard that we'll go ahead and give FREE (US taxpayer paid) Covid shots to non-US residents before other Florida residents can get it.  But hey, why not??

If the vaccine had come out in the summertime, there'd be a lot fewer people in Florida trying to get it.  My town goes from a year-round population of 10,000 to over 30,000 in the winter. 

@Rothko posted:

I've heard that Florida is going to vaccinate non-Florida residents.  We have a lot of snowbirds from New York, New England, etc. that are down here.  I hadn't heard that we'll go ahead and give FREE (US taxpayer paid) Covid shots to non-US residents before other Florida residents can get it.  But hey, why not??

If the vaccine had come out in the summertime, there'd be a lot fewer people in Florida trying to get it.  My town goes from a year-round population of 10,000 to over 30,000 in the winter.

I've heard through the grapevine that one has to show a permanent Florida address, not just a hotel or something of that nature, if you're going to be vaccinated as a non-US resident.    There's also still the issue of actually getting an appointment to get the shot, which takes more than a song these days it seems.  Father-in-law and Mother-in-law both eligible now (US citizens and Florida residents - for tax purposes anyway), but can't get an appointment.

My niece, the nurse, got hers last week. Next door neighbor is a firefighter, so I'm guessing he'll be in the next round. I work for county gov't, and though I'm classified above "essential worker",  with the fancy "mission critical" designation, I haven't heard a peep about where I'm in line. I'd rather my wife, kids, and grandkids get theirs before I do.

Last edited by mneeley490
@Rothko posted:

Well, my dad got the Pfizer vaccine today.  But still trying to figure out how my mother can get an appointment.

At least in Palm Beach County, you either have to know somebody, or have great luck.

Depending on how mobile they are, you may want to look away from PB. My in-laws just got an appointment for their shots. They're in Naples, but are going to Avalon to get it as there are no appointments in Naples in the short term.

I did.  I was able to secure an appointment in Miami for my mother.  We are going down tomorrow for her to get it.

It really shouldn't have to be this way.  What a mess.

The articles about the Mack brothers and how they arranged for their wealthy friends at the Palm Beach Country Club to get vaccines from the Morse Health Center (where David Mack is the chairman) spell out exactly what I predicted:  wealthy donors using their influence to secure vaccines from hospitals and health foundations.

https://pagesix.com/2021/01/04...ccine-for-rich-pals/

@Rothko posted:

I did.  I was able to secure an appointment in Miami for my mother.  We are going down tomorrow for her to get it.

It really shouldn't have to be this way.  What a mess.

The articles about the Mack brothers and how they arranged for their wealthy friends at the Palm Beach Country Club to get vaccines from the Morse Health Center (where David Mack is the chairman) spell out exactly what I predicted:  wealthy donors using their influence to secure vaccines from hospitals and health foundations.

https://pagesix.com/2021/01/04...ccine-for-rich-pals/

Funny that these things don't seem to happen in countries with public sector health care systems. Or maybe it does and it's just not reported? 

@jcocktosten posted:

People are losing it about out-of-state residents and foreign nationals getting vaccines before others

I had to take 2 tests just to get a negative confirmation as they either lost or contaminated my first one

There does seem to be an appearance of impropriety that snowbirds and foreigners get the vaccine before regular Floridians.  I'm not sure what the answer is, though.  Lots of legitimate snowbirds live down here for many months in the winter.  Do we tell them to go back to their home states or countries?

@Rothko posted:

There does seem to be an appearance of impropriety that snowbirds and foreigners get the vaccine before regular Floridians.  I'm not sure what the answer is, though.  Lots of legitimate snowbirds live down here for many months in the winter.  Do we tell them to go back to their home states or countries?

yea, some people even illegally list private clubs as permanent residences to avoid paying state tax.  scumbags

Some interesting changes in the Federal guidance for the vaccines:

They are now recommending all states add the category of people 65 and older to the top tier category (many states, such as Florida and Texas are already doing it).

They are going to release the vaccine doses that were being withheld as the "second dose" and ship everything out to the states.  The idea is that you want to put all the vaccines into arms now, where there is at least a 50% efficacy on the first dose, and hope that the vaccine companies can crank out enough vaccine to meet the "second dose" requirements for everyone who gets a shot, plus extra to keep "first dose" vaccines going.

In addition, it looks like Johnson & Johnson will be releasing Phase 3 data in the next two weeks.  If it looks good and they can get approved in early February, there will be a lot more vaccine available, and the J&J vaccine has the advantage of being a "one shot" vaccine as opposed to Pfizer and Moderna, and that would simplify things a lot. 

.In addition, it looks like Johnson & Johnson will be releasing Phase 3 data in the next two weeks.  If it looks good and they can get approved in early February, there will be a lot more vaccine available, and the J&J vaccine has the advantage of being a "one shot" vaccine as opposed to Pfizer and Moderna, and that would simplify things a lot.

An old girlfriend of mine just got this as part of the trials. I think she's nuts because she might have gotten a placebo and won't know it for a number of weeks, possibly after even when she could have gotten one of the vaccines already approved. She was happy to get $250 she doesn't really need.

@Rothko posted:

Some interesting changes in the Federal guidance for the vaccines:

They are going to release the vaccine doses that were being withheld as the "second dose" and ship everything out to the states.  The idea is that you want to put all the vaccines into arms now, where there is at least a 50% efficacy on the first dose, and hope that the vaccine companies can crank out enough vaccine to meet the "second dose" requirements for everyone who gets a shot, plus extra to keep "first dose" vaccines going.



Second doses? Oh, sorry. That was just on paper. We didn't actually order any second doses.

Trump gifts us one more pile of sh!t before he leaves office. Thousands more will die because of this, and he wants a military sendoff? How about a flyby from a B-2 bomber?

@mneeley490 posted:

Second doses? Oh, sorry. That was just on paper. We didn't actually order any second doses.

Trump gifts us one more pile of sh!t before he leaves office. Thousands more will die because of this, and he wants a military sendoff? How about a flyby from a B-2 bomber?

"One more"  Sounds like you think that might be his last pile of $hit before he leaves office.  I bet it's not.

@mneeley490 posted:

Second doses? Oh, sorry. That was just on paper. We didn't actually order any second doses.

Trump gifts us one more pile of sh!t before he leaves office. Thousands more will die because of this, and he wants a military sendoff? How about a flyby from a B-2 bomber?

Yes.  The 20 million doses that were supposed to be held back have somehow disappeared.

On a completely unrelated note, the Trump Organization just announced it sold 20 million doses of a brand new "Trump Vaccine" to Vladimir Putin, in a deal estimated to be worth $2 billion to the Trump family.

[That last bit was a joke.  I hope.]

Here is what I think: If you don’t have a vaccine or some other proof of my immunity or a legitimate medical reason not to take the vaccine, you won’t be welcome at a lot of places. I currently am writing an essay on this topic, to finish it I will use help of https://www.topwritersreview.com/reviews/. I’m sure exceptions will be made for people who have legitimate medical reasons but “I’m afraid of a needle” or “ i’m a self-appointed medical expert who knows the vaccine is bad” probably won’t work

Last edited by Rhow