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Chinese and Herbal Medicine vs. prescription drugs.

P petitesyrahfanMember
Tonight on my way home, I was listening to the radio, and the host was mentioning how some drug "Vitorin"(I am not sure if this is the correct spelling or not), which is a drug that is supposed to help lower cholesterol. Ok, I am nowhere near that point in my life or even remotely close to being that old where I need that stuff. But, I have seen the adds.

The talk show host was mentioning how this drug is causing cancer in some patients. I have seen so many adds for these drugs on the tube and then they list the possible side affects and I am like thinking, wow, it sounds like if you take this stuff you will be creating more problems than you already have.

This got me to thinking about Chinese medicines and herbal medicines versus these prescription drugs. In my own opinion, there is a real good reason Asian people have a long history of having long life spans, and modern medicines have little or even nothing to do with it. I know many in the medical field look down upon these forms of medicine, but I am a true believer it works very good.

Sometimes I have problems sleeping. This knowledgeable Asian lady told me to try Passion flower tea. Well lets say this, it worked!! But, I have heard from some other people say that they are now trusting Chinese and Herbal medicines more now.

There are some Chinese medicine experts in San Francisco, and I am sure in other major cities as well, I am serious, if I should need some form of medicine I am going to go this route first. I just do not trust what some of these prescription drugs have in them or could do to a person.

What are your thoughts on this? I would be real curious to know, I am sure this could spark a lively discussion.
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winetarelliwinetarelliMember
quote:
In my own opinion, there is a... good reason Asian people have a long history of having long life spans, and modern medicines have little or even nothing to do with it.

This is true.


quote:
I know many in the medical field look down upon these forms of medicine

This is true.


quote:
[I, however, believe that they] work... very [well].

This is false. Well, it is true that you believe that they work well. It is false that they do...

Medicines that in controlled scientific experiments are found not to work do not work. Now, some things do work -- accupuncture, for example, really can relieve stress which can lead to a healthier life, both mentally and physically. There are certainly homeopathic and natural things out there that can help boost the immune system -- Vitamin C, Echinacea... even low levels of iron for some people.

But if we are talking about the stuff that "Western Medicine" says doesn't work -- ie. science says doesn't work because it has been studied by doctors and/or technicians under controlled conditons and found not to work -- well, that stuff doesn't work.

The reason that people from more affluent Asian countries have a longer life expectancy is not rocket science. If almost everyone in the US ate no processed starches, no tropical nut oils, tons of fruit and vegetables and tons of fish with virtually no red meat, we would have the same life expectancy.
indybobindybobMember
Yes, lots of factors determine health. Tops being genetics and lifestyle. Good genes go a long way. So do exercise and diet.

I am on the fence. Some western meds are beneficial. My fiancee takes a thyroid medicine to compensate for some bad genetics (shhh), but she also takes an iron tablet I know could be replaced by fresh spinach and beets, or red meat if she ate it.

In the West, we are very much concerned with treating symptoms. Doctors write antibiotic prescriptions at the first sniffle, without regard to a compromised immune system down the road. They do this because patients demand it, and many doctors are more than willing to oblige, rather than say "sleep it off, eat your leafy greens, you'll be fine in a couple of days."

Not all western medicine is cooked up in a lab somewhere from various aldehydes and esters. Many come from isolated compounds found in nature. Some American Indians would gnaw on willow bark as a headache cure. Guess what? It contains salicylic acid (aspirin). New life-saving medicines are being found all over the world in a variety of things.

I think it's naive to discount the findings of Eastern medical thinking. I don't have it all the time, but I always feel great after having ginseng tea for a couple of days, as a Chinese college buddy of mine suggested.

Sure, there seems to be a lot of quackery in Asian medicine. It's debatable whether virility comes from eating gonads. And, the founder of the Qin dynasty is known for having the Great Wall built. He also had his doctors make him herbal pills to give immortality. A main ingredient ultimately killed him: Mercury.

Neither system is perfect, but perfection may lie in judicious blending of the two.

PSF, if you're interested in the subject, see if you can find a copy of "A Modern Herbal" in the local library. It's in two parts I believe, a bit dated, but interesting reading.
pinotlvrpinotlvrMember
quote:
Originally posted by mpls wine guy:
Juicy, you are right. It took me three or four tries at different medications before I found the right mix for my anxiety and depression. Iv'e been on the same meds now for four years.


Ever thought about dealing with the source of your anxiety and depression vs. just medicating it?

Frankly, the side effects of most depression meds would have me choosing to jump off a cliff anyway...so what's the point!!
C cdrMember
Chilepepper,

There are many healthy, well adjusted people who suffer from chronic depression due to imbalances in neurotransmitters and chemical activity in the synapses. Many of the Selective SEratonin Reuptake INhibitors have saved the lives of many people when used properly and with regular medical supervision. We need not have deep seeded problems or traumas to suffer clinical depression.

these drugs are a God send for many.

I do believe that they are often prescribed when perhaps some psychotherapy, diet change or other non-drug treatments may be the ticket.
G greybeardMember
As a scientist myself I still hold out some appreciation for Chinese/Homeopathic/Alternative medicine (or at least some parts of each), although my suspicion is that most of it is down to one thing...Placebo effect.

I believe that if you truly think something will do you good (and it is not chemically going to do you harm) then, on average, it's better than doing nothing at all and should be at least a consideration along with more scientifically proven treatments.

I do question the blind faith in any single treatment if it is exclusive to the possibility using complementary techniques, and that goes for both "Alternative" and "Western" medicine.

As with most things in life there is little "Black or White" and a lot of "Shades of Grey" - when it comes to health the mind is often overlooked for its effect on the body.
pinotlvrpinotlvrMember
quote:
Originally posted by cdr:
Chilepepper,

There are many healthy, well adjusted people who suffer from chronic depression due to imbalances in neurotransmitters and chemical activity in the synapses. Many of the Selective SEratonin Reuptake INhibitors have saved the lives of many people when used properly and with regular medical supervision. We need not have deep seeded problems or traumas to suffer clinical depression.

these drugs are a God send for many.

I do believe that they are often prescribed when perhaps some psychotherapy, diet change or other non-drug treatments may be the ticket.


My belief is that it seems these drugs are now the first line of defense instead of the last and are WAY overprescribed. I frankly, would avoid them at all costs - but I guess I should shut up know before I'm compared to Tom Cruise or something. Eek
W winetechMember
quote:
Originally posted by indybob:
In the West, we are very much concerned with treating symptoms. Doctors write antibiotic prescriptions at the first sniffle, without regard to a compromised immune system down the road. They do this because patients demand it, and many doctors are more than willing to oblige, rather than say "sleep it off, eat your leafy greens, you'll be fine in a couple of days."

We're seeing the direct impact of this practice today in the increase in MRSA, VRE, and other antibiotic resistant organisms

quote:
Originally posted by Greybeard:
As with most things in life there is little "Black or White" and a lot of "Shades of Grey" - when it comes to health the mind is often overlooked for its effect on the body.

I fully agree with this. I also think that the capabilities of the body itself are overlooked. As Greybeard said, there are many "shades of Grey", but I think that there are times when our bodies capability’s are not taken into account. It seems that people today feel that they are not getting their "money's worth" from their physician if they are not given some sort of medication.
C chumleeMember
I was recently prescribed Ambien for anxiety and insomnia issues. I would take one before bed and wake up with a headache and groggy pill hangover that lasted for 2 days.

Then I took the path of Jamaican herbal medicine. I take some of that before bed, makes me feel great, wake up fully rested and ready to go in the morning.

Sorry if this sounds flippant, and it's obviously not a cure for more serious conditions, but it's relatively natural and seems to heal on both physical and mental levels.
C cdrMember
Chilepepper,

Many people do, in fact, head to the doctor and ask, "Can you presecribe me something," when other, chemical free or limited duration meds would work as well and prevent the side effects that these potent SSRI drugs can have. Having a bad day or a bad week is not sufficient, in my book, to seek medical help for depresssion, but hey, I'm no doctor.
glennkglennkMember
quote:
Originally posted by chum lee:
I was recently prescribed Ambien for anxiety and insomnia issues. I would take one before bed and wake up with a headache and groggy pill hangover that lasted for 2 days.

Then I took the path of Jamaican herbal medicine. I take some of that before bed, makes me feel great, wake up fully rested and ready to go in the morning.

Sorry if this sounds flippant, and it's obviously not a cure for more serious conditions, but it's relatively natural and seems to heal on both physical and mental levels.
I took a lot of “Jamaican herbal medicine” in college. Come to think of it, I slept great in college as well Wink
C chumleeMember
No, my MD here in CA did not prescribe it, she did mention it as an alternative idea, but prescribed the Ambien. I don't think I'll need it so much to go out and get a prescription for it. I hadn't touched the stuff since college, let's just say it's gotten a lot more medicinal since those days.

Again, sorry PSF if it sounds like I'm making light of your original post, I'm honestly not. It just sounded to me like we might have been in a similar situation/state of mind, and this particular "cure" did well for me. And don't worry, my hair is still short, I'm still clean shaven, and I still can't stand the Allman Brothers.
D davetongbbpMember
An American goes to see the Olympics. While in Beijing, he is ... entertained, and does not take any precautions. A week after arriving back home he awakens one morning to find his penis covered with bright green and purple spots. Horrified, he immediately goes to see his doctor.

The doctor, never having seen anything like this before, orders some tests and tells the man to return in a two days for the results. The man returns a couple of days later and the doctor says, "I've got bad news for you. You've contracted Mongolian VD. It's very rare and almost unheard of here. We know very little about it."

The man looks a little relieved and says, "Well, give me a shot or something and fix me up doc."

The doctor answers, "I'm sorry, there's no known cure other than to amputate your penis." The man screams in horror, "Oh no! I want a second opinion!"

The doctor replies, "Well it's your choice. Go ahead if you want, but surgery is your only choice."

The next day, the man seeks out a Chinese doctor, figuring that he'll know more about the disease. The Chinese doctor examines his penis and proclaims, "Ah yes, Mongolian VD. Very rare disease."

The guy says to the doctor, "Yeah, yeah, I already know that, but what can you do? My American doctor wants to operate and amputate my penis!"

The Chinese doctor shakes his head and laughs, "Stupid American doctor! American doctor, always want to operate. Make more money, that way."

"Then there's no need to operate? Oh, thank God!" the man replies.

"Yes!" says the Chinese doctor, "You no worry! Wait two weeks, it fall off by itself!"
F Francis123Member
cdr posted:
Chilepepper,

There are many healthy, well adjusted people who suffer from chronic depression due to imbalances in neurotransmitters and chemical activity in the synapses. Many of the Selective SEratonin Reuptake INhibitors have saved the lives of many people when used properly and with regular medical supervision. We need not have deep seeded problems or traumas to suffer clinical depression.

these drugs are a God send for many.

I do believe that they are often prescribed when perhaps some psychotherapy, diet change or other non-drug treatments may be the ticket.

My sister has been suffering from depression for years. Of course, medications are good, but it is better to choose more natural way of treatment like cbd products (it is possible to find out more here). She has recently started using cbd oil and the effect is great. It works great for her. Ha anyone tried cbd for depression?

Last edited by Francis123
The Old ManThe Old ManMember

CBD currently does not have enough research to make many statements about its medical efficacy. The people in the shops who sell these products (now even at Macy's etc.) could be arrested for unauthorized practice of medicine. "This is good for pain, this is good for depression, this helps you go to sleep, this cures cancer, this will help your dog, this grows hair." At this point they are  giving no more than the equivalent of quack medical advice. More research is needed into CBD and THC. This research was delayed for decades by its Class A schedule listing. My own suspicion is when they do enough research they will not find it to be the miracle drug many think it is.

Your sister's depression should be treated by a doctor, not a store clerk.

Last edited by The Old Man
F Francis123Member
@pinotlvr posted:
There are 3 drugs on earth that are worth a damn...and I have no reason to take them...but they are worth a damn:

Viagra
Levitra
Cialis

Any other drug or remedy have side effects that just aren't worth it. If I ever died from the 3 mentioned...I at least know I'd die enjoying it.

Actually, Viagra also has side effects. My husband has erectile dysfunction, so he takes such pills. He started experiencing headaches after using Viagra, so he deided to Buy Cialis Online. It also works great and my DH hasn't noticed any side effects. 

Last edited by Francis123
G g-manMember
@irwin posted:

When I had my gout attack 2 weeks ago, a doctor told me that before going to sleep at night, I should drink a cup of hot green tea after a hot bath.  Well, drinking the tea was easy, but drinking all the water in the hot bath about killed me.

obv anecdotal, but low acid orange juice and a liter of water a day has been  helping me dramatically.  I was on colchicine but the side effects for me were pretty terrible,  I was constantly sleepy, couldn't stay awake and had trouble breathing, not to mention the  more well known side effects.

The Old ManThe Old ManMember
@KateMidd posted:

I think that we are fed up with too much info about CBD and THC miracle effects. But I can't deny that some do work.

I can. At this point there simply isn't enough research into medical marijuana and particularly CBD. The reason for this is obvious, as being listed as a class A drug delayed, and held back, its research for decades. However, I think much of the acclaim at this point is simply anecdotal with a lot of nonsensical advice (and the illegal practice of medicine) at dispensaries.

VB Vino BevoMember

I believe in science and data, and was a skeptic of Eastern medicine, chiropractic, etc. my whole life.  That said, I started trying acupuncture and herbal remedies prescribed by a DAOM after I kept hearing how wonderful it was, most loudly from my wife.  I admittedly went in with the intent to disprove and show how it did nothing for me.  I've been going regularly now for over ten years as it has made a tremendous difference in my overall health, as well as treated various ailments when necessary.  It doesn't take the place of my regular MD, but rather compliments his approach.  My MD and DAOM actually support the "other side" and praise the benefits of their peers.

I had the mindset this was a bunch of cr*p and it proved me wrong, so much so that I now swear by it.  I can't explain how it works, but it does.

Last edited by Vino Bevo
The Old ManThe Old ManMember
@Vino Bevo posted:

I believe in science and data, and was a skeptic of Eastern medicine, chiropractic, etc. my whole life.  That said, I started trying acupuncture and herbal remedies prescribed by a DAOM after I kept hearing how wonderful it was, most loudly from my wife.  I admittedly went in with the intent to disprove and show how it did nothing for me.  I've been going regularly now for over ten years as it has made a tremendous difference in my overall health, as well as treated various ailments when necessary.  It doesn't take the place of my regular MD, but rather compliments his approach.  My MD and DAOM actually support the "other side" and praise the benefits of their peers.

I had the mindset this was a bunch of cr*p and it proved me wrong, so much so that I now swear by it.  I can't explain how it works, but it does.

"I believe in science and data..."

I glad you're better, but nope, anecdotal evidence is evidence of nothing. I'm sorry your MD has had so much pressure put on him by our, to quote Carl Sagan, "Demon-Haunted World" to go along with unproven treatments. And if any of your patent medicines include the nonsense of homeopathy you should know what the word "succussion" means and how it interacts with leather of all things. Read about it, it's a hoot.

billhikebillhikeMember
@Vino Bevo posted:

You have no idea what my MD thinks, nor do you have any clue regarding anything beyond your own beliefs.  This has been made abundantly clear, at least to me, after reading your constant rants over anything and everything that might fall outside your narrow thinking.  If I don't agree with you then I'm wrong.  Not only is that mind set what's wrong with our country today, it's what made me leave this site.  I've been trying to get back into it over the past few weeks but here we go again.

This will probably get me banned and shock many of the wonderful people I've befriended on this site over the past 20 years, but I'll remain friends with them outside the site and don't much care about posting here again.  FOr those of you wondering why the forums are dead, TOM is a primary reason for many of us.

Go fuck yourself.

Only shocked it took this long for the reaction based on previous interactions that I’ve noticed. We know how to find each other.

billhikebillhikeMember
@The Old Man posted:

I knew it would only be a matter of minutes before Grover Bill piped in. However, I suspect if we ever get together we would get along just fine.

So your trolling had the desired effect. Congratulations. Perhaps we would if you’re less of a jerk in person, though I do prefer people who are consistent.  Alas, you mentioned a while back that you were in the 4th quarter of life. As you approach the two minute warning, the chance of it happening is dwindling.

The Old ManThe Old ManMember
@billhike posted:

So your trolling had the desired effect. Congratulations. Perhaps we would if you’re less of a jerk in person, though I do prefer people who are consistent.  Alas, you mentioned a while back that you were in the 4th quarter of life. As you approach the two minute warning, the chance of it happening is dwindling.

I was not trolling for you, I was answering the poster. You, of course, as you always do, chose to pipe in. I don't mind.

Last edited by The Old Man
billhikebillhikeMember
@napacat posted:

You two just kill this site (TOM and BILL).  No wonder no one wants to post anything remotely interesting...all you get are you two pouncing on them.  I often said that I have not met anyone who truly likes wine to be a jerk.  You two are the first...or you truly don't like wine.  Either way...you are the problem.

Right, because such a large percentage of your posts are wine-related. Have you off-lined with anyone from this forum? Do you post tasting notes?

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