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Art Enthusiast:

vintvintMember
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by VinT:
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by VinT:
And the answer is...?


Will bring a couple home on loan for a week or two.


Well done! If you have a moment and your iPhone handy...


Vin, Belk le Rat will try out our home this coming weekend. I will send you an email.


Excellent! Thanks. And glad to see you made it home in one piece. Wink
W wine+artMember
quote:
Originally posted by VinT:
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by VinT:
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by VinT:
And the answer is...?


Will bring a couple home on loan for a week or two.


Well done! If you have a moment and your iPhone handy...


Vin, Belk le Rat will try out our home this coming weekend. I will send you an email.


Excellent! Thanks. And glad to see you made it home in one piece. Wink


Home yes, but not too sure about in how many pieces.
K khmark7Member
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
khmark7, I curse thee. Razz

I'm not a rug person, and I do NOT need any other bad hobbies. This said, I found an 1880 Oushak rug that I thought was beautiful. ( 9x14?)

Are these serious rugs?


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Serious....that's another story. I'm not familiar with that style of rug, but one can always have the rug appraised. I've learned over time what traits and characteristics to look for in a quality rug, but it's a tricky business.

Rugs of high quality can easily last many decades, even with heavy wear.
W wine+artMember
Thanks khmark7.

The larger rug sold for $89,000, which everyone in the know was shocked at such a low price.

There is a smaller rug I liked, but know nothing about such. There are several smaller rugs for under $8000.

One of my art brokers bought an 1800's Oushak for under $70,000 and flipped it for over $100k in two months.

Like I said, I know nothing about this game.

Thanks for your opinion.
K khmark7Member
Interesting W+A....certainly classic old rugs are higher in value, but not know where the rug was made, and the quality, it's hard to provide much information. One not need to look for antique rugs however to find outstanding beauty....you simply need to know where to look right now. There is no need to spend $8,000....even for larger rugs.
robsutherlandrobsutherlandMember
quote:
Originally posted by khmark7:
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
khmark7, I curse thee. Razz

I'm not a rug person, and I do NOT need any other bad hobbies. This said, I found an 1880 Oushak rug that I thought was beautiful. ( 9x14?)

Are these serious rugs?


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Serious....that's another story. I'm not familiar with that style of rug, but one can always have the rug appraised. I've learned over time what traits and characteristics to look for in a quality rug, but it's a tricky business.

Rugs of high quality can easily last many decades, even with heavy wear.


I quite like Usak/Oushak rugs. Especially with age on them as the washed out, muted colours are very easy on my eyes. I don't get the are they "serious" rugs though. Pretty much all rugs that are handmade from that region can be collectible to someone. I've got quite a few very tribal (read coarse, made in a tent) rugs that are just as collectible and tradeable as a silk kashan rug. Don't get caught up thinking you can only buy Nain or Qum or Esfahan rugs to be a true collector.
K khmark7Member
Just my opinion. "Serious" rugs = Iran Similiar to Champagne vs. sparkling wines. Are there quality sparkling wines made outside of Champagne? Absolutely, but they still are not Champagne. Rugs from Iran are the highest of quality, command the highest resale value and their patterns are copied the world over.

Tribal rugs are very cool, and i actually much enjoy Kazak rugs hand made in Pakistan.... Oushak rugs I believe are hand made in Turkey, not that there is anything wrong with that.
robsutherlandrobsutherlandMember
quote:
Originally posted by khmark7:
Just my opinion. "Serious" rugs = Iran Similiar to Champagne vs. sparkling wines. Are there quality sparkling wines made outside of Champagne? Absolutely, but they still are not Champagne. Rugs from Iran are the highest of quality, command the highest resale value and their patterns are copied the world over.

Tribal rugs are very cool, and i actually much enjoy Kazak rugs hand made in Pakistan.... Oushak rugs I believe are hand made in Turkey, not that there is anything wrong with that.


An Oushak rug sold at Christies for $159k in 2008. I'd call that serious.

Maybe instead of the Champagne/Sparkling wine description you can say the best of Iranian (Nain, Qum, Esfahan etc.) are the Bordeaux 1st growths (at the top end of the manufacturing - just because they are from there doesn't mean they are museum worthy!). 1st growth's are great, but there is a lot of very serious, collectible wine outside of them.

I'd take a really great, antique Qashqai over a more modern, good but not great, quality Nain anytime. Just like I'd take a 1999 La Landonne over a 2002 Haut Brion.
A aphillaMember
quote:
Originally posted by Rob_Sutherland:
quote:
Originally posted by khmark7:
Just my opinion. "Serious" rugs = Iran Similiar to Champagne vs. sparkling wines. Are there quality sparkling wines made outside of Champagne? Absolutely, but they still are not Champagne. Rugs from Iran are the highest of quality, command the highest resale value and their patterns are copied the world over.

Tribal rugs are very cool, and i actually much enjoy Kazak rugs hand made in Pakistan.... Oushak rugs I believe are hand made in Turkey, not that there is anything wrong with that.


An Oushak rug sold at Christies for $159k in 2008. I'd call that serious.

Maybe instead of the Champagne/Sparkling wine description you can say the best of Iranian (Nain, Qum, Esfahan etc.) are the Bordeaux 1st growths (at the top end of the manufacturing - just because they are from there doesn't mean they are museum worthy!). 1st growth's are great, but there is a lot of very serious, collectible wine outside of them.

I'd take a really great, antique Qashqai over a more modern, good but not great, quality Nain anytime. Just like I'd take a 1999 La Landonne over a 2002 Haut Brion.


Arguments over the subjective. Aren't they great?

I want to take issue with your assertion, but I won't. Maybe instead, I'll ask a question. Is the greatness of art determined by what someone is willing to pay for it?
robsutherlandrobsutherlandMember
quote:
Originally posted by aphilla:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob_Sutherland:
quote:
Originally posted by khmark7:
Just my opinion. "Serious" rugs = Iran Similiar to Champagne vs. sparkling wines. Are there quality sparkling wines made outside of Champagne? Absolutely, but they still are not Champagne. Rugs from Iran are the highest of quality, command the highest resale value and their patterns are copied the world over.

Tribal rugs are very cool, and i actually much enjoy Kazak rugs hand made in Pakistan.... Oushak rugs I believe are hand made in Turkey, not that there is anything wrong with that.


An Oushak rug sold at Christies for $159k in 2008. I'd call that serious.

Maybe instead of the Champagne/Sparkling wine description you can say the best of Iranian (Nain, Qum, Esfahan etc.) are the Bordeaux 1st growths (at the top end of the manufacturing - just because they are from there doesn't mean they are museum worthy!). 1st growth's are great, but there is a lot of very serious, collectible wine outside of them.

I'd take a really great, antique Qashqai over a more modern, good but not great, quality Nain anytime. Just like I'd take a 1999 La Landonne over a 2002 Haut Brion.


Arguments over the subjective. Aren't they great?

I want to take issue with your assertion, but I won't. Maybe instead, I'll ask a question. Is the greatness of art determined by what someone is willing to pay for it?


To some... Devilish

Can art be considered great if no one is ever willing to pay for it?

Certainly the "market" puts various prices on things. These differing values don't always speak to the inherent artistic greatness of a piece. Rarity and demand often play larger parts. I collect rare (and to me at least greatly artistic) things that the market doesn't value the way it values other things with potentially the same "greatness of art" or artistic merit. But the market does value them...

Regardless, I stand by my assertion that a rug doesn't have to come from Iran to be serious, collectible or even museum worthy. Rugs from outside of Iran can have great artistic merit and people have acknowledged that fact through the high prices they are willing to pay for them.
K ksc02Member
Sheep mentality: How many people are attracted to an form of High Art only after the masses have declared it as such (and they pay accordingly to own such at that point)?

The 'eye' belongs to one who can determine such an item outside of 'the market' and that one is greatly rewarded if that same market discovers this item later.

That said, Fine Art is Fine Art and a well honed eye will find such items on its own without requiring the validation of the masses. As well, the true collector collects. He doesn't 'invest' and (technically) cares little about the after market.

Same agrugment that we see in threads here regarding the valuation of wines (valuations increase to a point one questions whether to consume) can be applied to Art.
K khmark7Member
quote:
Originally posted by Rob_Sutherland:
quote:
Originally posted by khmark7:
Just my opinion. "Serious" rugs = Iran Similiar to Champagne vs. sparkling wines. Are there quality sparkling wines made outside of Champagne? Absolutely, but they still are not Champagne. Rugs from Iran are the highest of quality, command the highest resale value and their patterns are copied the world over.

Tribal rugs are very cool, and i actually much enjoy Kazak rugs hand made in Pakistan.... Oushak rugs I believe are hand made in Turkey, not that there is anything wrong with that.


An Oushak rug sold at Christies for $159k in 2008. I'd call that serious.

Maybe instead of the Champagne/Sparkling wine description you can say the best of Iranian (Nain, Qum, Esfahan etc.) are the Bordeaux 1st growths (at the top end of the manufacturing - just because they are from there doesn't mean they are museum worthy!). 1st growth's are great, but there is a lot of very serious, collectible wine outside of them.

I'd take a really great, antique Qashqai over a more modern, good but not great, quality Nain anytime. Just like I'd take a 1999 La Landonne over a 2002 Haut Brion.


Yes, I agree. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately there is no universal definition of "serious" nor "collector". There is no perfect way to answer wine+art's question. Even if he asked if the rug was of high quality, we could still disagree. For better or worse, art is subjective.
A aphillaMember
I like the wine analogy. I have a similar experience with both. I've found stuff (both in wine and art) I really, really like and I hope those things I really, really like that aren't popular stay unpopular.

I have this thing for Limoges. I was in the Louvre again last week and enjoyed admiring things that most people just walked by. Had them almost entirely to myself.
K khmark7Member
w+a sometimes you find with antique rugs that the patterns and designs are from an era that is no longer duplicated or produced. Patterns/designs change, even colors used will change and with the current trade restrictions on Iran the entire market may change again and has changed in recent decades. Some countries produce rugs made using Iranian patterns, but with their own unique color schemes, and with better and better quality these days.
The workmanship in Iran is amazing and handweaving these rugs is a learned trade that risks being lost on a generation in Iran due to gov't stupidity and rising labor costs. The rugs of today may be worth a whole lot more in the next century.
jabe11jabe11Member
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
The BBC reported this morning the Cezanne work, Boy in a Red Vest ($100 million) has be recovered from the famed 2008 Swiss museum theft.

Someone is very happy this day. Cool


$1000k on a cezanne? i had no idea his pieces sold for so much...and how nice to have that kins of dough for a painting. For what its worth, i had the 12 euro to get the family in to the musee picasso in Antibe today Smile
A aphillaMember
quote:
Originally posted by wine+art:
quote:
Originally posted by aphilla:


I have this thing for Limoges. I was in the Louvre again last week and enjoyed admiring things that most people just walked by.


Something tells me your no doubt beautiful home is bipolar to mine, ( rugs, porcelain ) which is cool. Cool


I'm not sure - I have books with pictures of art that I really like....
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