Architecture and Design thread

I want to through a bomb in here. (How unusual for me.) As a member of MOCA you get a free subscription to Dwell magazine. Now I'm into modern architecture, but I couldn't stand about 90% of the things in there. Most of time looked like if you fell you'd gash yourself on something--most likely the furniture. The houses all have the same hard edged coldness to them. Somehow they took the concepts of Neutra and Schindler, but left behind the humanness.

So I actually called the museum and told them they could save money and stop sending me issues. My mother gets Architectural Digest, but I couldn't subscribe to a magazine that regularly has Barbara Streisand on the cover.
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Originally posted by tanglenet:
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Originally posted by Ed Bowers [i.e. FlWino]:
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Originally posted by tanglenet:
I'm not happy with the architect I've been working with. I gave her a budget, she did the work, I paid and now after getting 3 bids, the project is 3x what I told her my budget was. Mulling on how to proceed and how willing I am to have her start over or litigate.


Tanglenet, did you have any meetings with her during the design? If so pay the bill as you knew what was going on, otherwise litigate. Hope you had a contract specifying what your budget was, design style size etc. Maybe she can offer cheaper alternatives. Who were the bidders? Her folks or yours? IMHO she is an idiot!!


Standard AIA contract. The scope of work was outlined by her but the (my) budget for the cost of the project was not. I don't think she's incompetent, I think she doesn't care if the project was built or not as she was going to be paid upfront for the drawings, submittal for approval, working with the structural engineer, etc.


with our builder and Architect each item has a price attached and the own has the option of accepting or declining the option. This on a program called c0-construct. provides space for drawings, Docs, contract, pricing, specs etc.

Looks like you will have to scale back a lot of stuff before permits. Feel for your angst.
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Originally posted by The Old Man:
I want to through a bomb in here. (How unusual for me.) As a member of MOCA you get a free subscription to Dwell magazine. Now I'm into modern architecture, but I couldn't stand about 90% of the things in there. Most of time looked like if you fell you'd gash yourself on something--most likely the furniture. The houses all have the same hard edged coldness to them. Somehow they took the concepts of Neutra and Schindler, but left behind the humanness.

So I actually called the museum and told them they could save money and stop sending me issues. My mother gets Architectural Digest, but I couldn't subscribe to a magazine that regularly has Barbara Streisand on the cover.


Totally agree regarding your views on Dwell.
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Originally posted by tanglenet:
I'm not happy with the architect I've been working with. I gave her a budget, she did the work, I paid and now after getting 3 bids, the project is 3x what I told her my budget was. Mulling on how to proceed and how willing I am to have her start over or litigate.

Had a similar issue. Wanted to add on to the back of the house, Gave the architect our budget, some rough sketches my dad did, and her fee (also as GC) was almost 20% of our total budget. We stopped right there. She had taken over for her father who was much more renown, so we let it drop.
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Originally posted by mangiare:
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Originally posted by The Old Man:
I want to through a bomb in here. (How unusual for me.) As a member of MOCA you get a free subscription to Dwell magazine. Now I'm into modern architecture, but I couldn't stand about 90% of the things in there. Most of time looked like if you fell you'd gash yourself on something--most likely the furniture. The houses all have the same hard edged coldness to them. Somehow they took the concepts of Neutra and Schindler, but left behind the humanness.

So I actually called the museum and told them they could save money and stop sending me issues. My mother gets Architectural Digest, but I couldn't subscribe to a magazine that regularly has Barbara Streisand on the cover.


Totally agree regarding your views on Dwell.


Dwell is one of my go to magazines for flying. It is rare I do not see something that causes me to think.

For me, if I get one idea it is worth turning the pages, and I killed some time on an airplane. Smile
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Originally posted by wine+art:
Dwell is one of my go to magazines for flying. It is rare I do not see something that causes me to think.

For me, if I get one idea it is worth turning the pages, and I killed some time on a airplane. Smile

I knew we were going to go in opposite directions on this one.
Most all modern houses turn me off. I hate cheap copies of Tuscan style house here in Palm Beach County. Now where near what it is in Europe.

Grew up in a house that was built in 1904, with real wood - Chestnut. Space!!!

My desires are for natural materials, stone and wood. Hate contemporary and modern style. No metal furniture. Earth tones.

when I work on these plans of the homes being built here I cringe with the false style desired by the owners and some of the architects. Most houses are not really 'liveable'.
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Originally posted by The Old Man:
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Originally posted by wine+art:
Dwell is one of my go to magazines for flying. It is rare I do not see something that causes me to think.

For me, if I get one idea it is worth turning the pages, and I killed some time on an airplane. Smile

I knew we were going to go in opposite directions on this one.


I do not think we are at opposite directions here. I'm just saying it is rare I do not pick up a thought or an idea from turning pages, ( positive & negative) and this is a magazine I buy at airports every month. I cannot imagine how many issues I have left on airplanes in my life. Their recent focus on sustainable landscaping has been very informative for me. It can also be something as simple as the use of a color or the juxtaposition of something.

You tend to be far more literal than I am. Razz

I certainly understand how one may not like any specific style of design. I tend to appreciate almost all design style done well even if it is something I could never live with or like, yet as I said, I can appreciate them. ( ex: Early American & Victorian just to name two)

I also have found certain design styles work better for me than others based on where I am in my life. When the kids were still living with us, our home was very different, and our weekend home then was very different also but both served us well for that time in our lives.

I must also admit that staying true to my personal motto in life, ( stay curious and never static) also lends well to change and different experiences. It is hard for me to have an informed opinion without personally experiencing something.

At this time in my life, simplify is a major driving force in many or most decisions I/we make in all walks of our life, including but not limited to style/design, personal finances, decluttering of many MANY things even including what I collect and enjoy in life. Yes, this even includes wine, watches and even art. Eek While we are still buying art very actively, we have moved 75-100 pieces out of our possession over the last couple of years. ALL of this has given us a real sense of freedom in some odd way.

While there are similarities in our Dallas and Santa Fe homes, they are also different at the same time.

I also think some of this has to do with ones age and where one is at in their life. D and I are amazed how many friends we have that are also having similar feelings currently, even though most have not acted upon them. This very topic became an unplanned discussion at an off-line recently, and how we all much prefer small or smaller off-lines today than in the past. The intimacy word was used several times. Big Grin

Anyway, stay curious and never ever static in life. It is far FAR easier to say those words than to act upon them I have observed in life. Wink
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Originally posted by wine+art:
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Originally posted by Jabe11:
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Originally posted by wine+art:
strong mid-century modern mindsets:

I'll look up this style, as I'm not sure what it should look like, but I think of Edward Hopper.


Jabe, when you get beck to San Diego we must talk. Big Grin


Ha! Yes, you know I'll make a good student Smile
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Originally posted by Rob_Sutherland:

Aesthetically and comfort wise, I like living in Edwardian and Victorian homes the best. It’s like wearing an ancient, moth eaten sweater that feels great despite the holes. While clean modernism can be more calming, I find Edwardian/Victorian more comforting. I love the perfection of Georgian but it can be stifling.


As it is so abundant here, one of my interests presently is trying to identify these different styles in buildings, but from an external perspective. Gothic/Gothic revival and neo-classical seem much easier to identify.
I like the classic Federal style, and for a perfect house building I prefer the work done by Andrea Palladio. Perfect balance, calmness, and unity.

His success as an architect is based not only on the beauty of his work, but also for its harmony with the culture of time. His success and influence came from the integration of extraordinary aesthetic quality with expressive characteristics that resonated with his client's social aspirations. His buildings served to communicate, visually, their place in the social order of their culture. This powerful integration of beauty and the physical representation of social meanings is apparent in three major building types he designed, be it 1]the urban palazzo, 2] agricultural villa, or 3] a church.

Great houses are in Vicenza, and Padua. Have toured 10 - 15 of these over the years.
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Originally posted by Ed Bowers [i.e. FlWino]:
I like the classic Federal style, and for a perfect house building I prefer the work done by Andrea Palladio. Perfect balance, calmness, and unity.

His success as an architect is based not only on the beauty of his work, but also for its harmony with the culture of time. His success and influence came from the integration of extraordinary aesthetic quality with expressive characteristics that resonated with his client's social aspirations. His buildings served to communicate, visually, their place in the social order of their culture. This powerful integration of beauty and the physical representation of social meanings is apparent in three major building types he designed, be it 1]the urban palazzo, 2] agricultural villa, or 3] a church.

Great houses are in Vicenza, and Padua. Have toured 10 - 15 of these over the years.


I can relate. We lived in Vicenza for 6 years. I regret never doing a tour of his more far-flung villas around the province. The land is indelible of him.
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Originally posted by tanglenet:
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Originally posted by Ed Bowers [i.e. FlWino]:
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Originally posted by tanglenet:
I'm not happy with the architect I've been working with. I gave her a budget, she did the work, I paid and now after getting 3 bids, the project is 3x what I told her my budget was. Mulling on how to proceed and how willing I am to have her start over or litigate.


Tanglenet, did you have any meetings with her during the design? If so pay the bill as you knew what was going on, otherwise litigate. Hope you had a contract specifying what your budget was, design style size etc. Maybe she can offer cheaper alternatives. Who were the bidders? Her folks or yours? IMHO she is an idiot!!


Standard AIA contract. The scope of work was outlined by her but the (my) budget for the cost of the project was not. I don't think she's incompetent, I think she doesn't care if the project was built or not as she was going to be paid upfront for the drawings, submittal for approval, working with the structural engineer, etc.


That is unfortunate, tanglenet, and feel for you in your predicament. Most of the contracts i have worked through are general building or subcontract and designers usually include follow through...throughout the design/build process (I have heard it called design/build/sue) including perhaps 5% added for clarification for pricing/building, and perhaps a seperate line for error/omissions insurance. But then, this is for larger commercial projects where the contract template is already heavily in favor of the owner (or rather, he who has the money and wishes to part with it) and are for significantly more sums.

I always had a distain for residential work ( there was always a picky owner peeping over your shoulder) unless it was a relationship building exercise with a likelihood of future contract acquisition.
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Originally posted by Jabe11:
Regarding churches in Italy (in the Veneto, at least), does anyone know why the campanile is almost exclusively (at least with Catholic Churches) a separate structure from the main church?

It's kind of a circular discussion. A campanile, or bell tower, is by definition a separate building. When the bells are housed in the church it is usually referred to as being in the steeple. Perhaps bell towers are separate because those suckers sure get very loud.
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Originally posted by The Old Man:
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Originally posted by Jabe11:
Regarding churches in Italy (in the Veneto, at least), does anyone know why the campanile is almost exclusively (at least with Catholic Churches) a separate structure from the main church?

It's kind of a circular discussion. A campanile, or bell tower, is by definition a separate building. When the bells are housed in the church it is usually referred to as being in the steeple. Perhaps bell towers are separate because those suckers sure get very loud.


Not really. Bell Towers were developed to ward off evil spirits, illness etc. The Church was 'holy', spirits 'unholy' thus they were kept apart.
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Originally posted by Ed Bowers [i.e. FlWino]:
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Originally posted by The Old Man:
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Originally posted by Jabe11:
Regarding churches in Italy (in the Veneto, at least), does anyone know why the campanile is almost exclusively (at least with Catholic Churches) a separate structure from the main church?

It's kind of a circular discussion. A campanile, or bell tower, is by definition a separate building. When the bells are housed in the church it is usually referred to as being in the steeple. Perhaps bell towers are separate because those suckers sure get very loud.


Not really. Bell Towers were developed to ward off evil spirits, illness etc. The Church was 'holy', spirits 'unholy' thus they were kept apart.

I cannot find a reference for this. As far as I can tell they were developed for the same purpose they serve today--to call the faithful to worship.
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Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Bowers [i.e. FlWino]:
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jabe11:
Regarding churches in Italy (in the Veneto, at least), does anyone know why the campanile is almost exclusively (at least with Catholic Churches) a separate structure from the main church?

It's kind of a circular discussion. A campanile, or bell tower, is by definition a separate building. When the bells are housed in the church it is usually referred to as being in the steeple. Perhaps bell towers are separate because those suckers sure get very loud.


Not really. Bell Towers were developed to ward off evil spirits, illness etc. The Church was 'holy', spirits 'unholy' thus they were kept apart.

I cannot find a reference for this. As far as I can tell they were developed for the same purpose they serve today--to call the faithful to worship.


And to tell time.
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Originally posted by tanglenet:
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Originally posted by The Old Man:
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Originally posted by Ed Bowers [i.e. FlWino]:
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Jabe11:
Regarding churches in Italy (in the Veneto, at least), does anyone know why the campanile is almost exclusively (at least with Catholic Churches) a separate structure from the main church?

It's kind of a circular discussion. A campanile, or bell tower, is by definition a separate building. When the bells are housed in the church it is usually referred to as being in the steeple. Perhaps bell towers are separate because those suckers sure get very loud.


Not really. Bell Towers were developed to ward off evil spirits, illness etc. The Church was 'holy', spirits 'unholy' thus they were kept apart.

I cannot find a reference for this. As far as I can tell they were developed for the same purpose they serve today--to call the faithful to worship.


And to tell time.


One of the historical reasons for building the tower separate was to allow the use of larger bells, the sound waves from which could have damaged the main building. The largest bell in the tower weighs eight tonnes.
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Originally posted by Ed Bowers [i.e. FlWino]:One of the historical reasons for building the tower separate was to allow the use of larger bells, the sound waves from which could have damaged the main building. The largest bell in the tower weighs eight tonnes.

I couldn't find a reference to this, but it was one of my thoughts also.
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Originally posted by The Old Man:
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Originally posted by Ed Bowers [i.e. FlWino]:One of the historical reasons for building the tower separate was to allow the use of larger bells, the sound waves from which could have damaged the main building. The largest bell in the tower weighs eight tonnes.

I couldn't find a reference to this, but it was one of my thoughts also.


Surprising what you can find in Google Big Grin
I absolutely love the tintinnabulation of ringing bells! It is one of the many things I love about Europe. I wish we had more of them in the states.

My fondest memory of playing Pinehurst #2 is walking down the fairway with my caddie on #1 enjoying the tintinnabulation of the church bells. The entire world felt a million miles away at that very moment.

Bell towers... IIRC from a simple level 200 architecture class ( too many years ago) bell towers were often not completed from the original church design due to cost, and when/if added at a later date the tower was far more cost efficient. An example of that is in Dallas. The oldest and largest ( attendance) Catholic church in Dallas is located downtown. After over 100 years of not having their original designed steeple with bells, the church was going to build a bell tower in lieu of the original design. With the help of the Dallas AIA and private funds from the arts district the money was raised to complete the original design from the original architectural plans at great expense. It is beautiful and is perfectly juxtaposition against the architecture of I.M.Pei, Sir Norman Foster, Renzo Piano and other modern architects within the arts district.

I also recall if towns did not have a church in their center with a bell steeple, the town itself would often build one in the center of town which is often near the church or even on church property since the church was often the center of early towns. ( see Santa Fe) Besides religious usages, the bells were used as a call to all for, fires, enemy attacks, weather warnings, non - religious celebrations, civic events, trails, et al.
Living in an ancient land gives one interested in architecture many pleasures. In our town, there are several Gothic revival late Gothic churches, a number of Tudor period half-timber houses, with what I would imagine are grade II listed cottages, and any number of historical manors lying throughout the wider area.

I have a fondness for half-timbered Tudor; it is interesting to note modern designs here incorporate this feature with faux planking and white washed plaster that is very true in appearance to centuries passed.
FWIW, we lived about 200 meters from a church and we loved the bell toll...It was quite loud and at times startled the kids. They did not ring after 6 pm. Ironically, it was not a Catholic church, and the bell tower was integral with the main building.

The other residence we were at was a village location with a single church that tolled the top and bottom of every hour, everyday. The church was a kilometer away and it's soft purring at night was soothing....plus you knew how much longer you were able to sleep, if arisen.
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Originally posted by Board-O:
Jc, you stayed in Abadia del Priorat, didn't you? It's closed now. Pity. I hoped to stay there again. I know Roger has a few rooms available at Mas Trucafort, but I'm not sure that's where I'd want to stay.


We did. Was very enjoyable. I would have stayed in Falset probably if I did it again though

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