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that was actually a stupid website about trying to scare people away from eating meat and unfairly bashing American agriculture and the American food system

you came on here and had a TON of jolly fluffy post that ask a bunch of borish questions but made people remember you

now you expose yourself for what you really are

the bad news is that most if not all on this forum are actually EDUCATED people not a bunch of clowns who will be swayed by the next loser ass activist groups flash kiddy movie

you have the right to eat anyway you please, but please reserve those same rights for everyone else as well.....even those who are not yet as "enlightened" as the gReAt the same old tired ass sky is falling crap for the forum

i always wondered just what the purpose of all those other worthless post from you we all know after this most worthless of all post Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Smile Cool

P.S. shouldn't you be out in front of the Nut Cracker handing out scare pamphlets to people wearing furs children Roll Eyes

the mark of any true loser group is when they are so desperate they cannot get their message out to anyone with any ability to reason so they go after the children instead...that website is another example of that despiration Roll Eyes Razz Cool
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TV --
I think you're coming down a little hard on DebAnne. I don't think she's a loony vegan activist trying to put the cattle industry out of business. She doesn't even seem to be particulalry committed to eating "sustainably raised meats, eggs and dairy" herself -- if her post about dinner at Charlie Trotter is any indication. Unless he only uses sustainably raised Iranian caviar (which I can't imagine even exists). I doubt the other items on her dinner menu were sustainably raised, either: sturgeon, squab and short ribs.
I think she probably did just find the web site interesting -- after all, her post hardly used a hard sell approach to get others to visit....
yes it is coming down hard, i too thought it was just farmers trying to carve out their nitch at first, but then i watched the "meatrix" movie and changed my mind

i have no problem with farmers carving a nitch and clowing people to pay more for lesser quality foods, but when they attack others to do this i get angry

and the way she just tossed the link out there as "interesting site about meat" is personally insulting to me and should be to anyone else on here with half a brain....i can make my own food/life style choices....i do not need people who reak of incense and B.O. to make these choices for me or to keep trying to tell me where i am wrong...nor do i need them to gear things towards my or anyone elses the stupid meatrix link....i stand by my attack Smile
Breathe TexasVines! Eek

That was one heck of a rant that seems totally unfounded. I have found DebAnne to be a helpful resource on these forum pages and have never seen a post from her (including this one) that would justify such an incredibly harsh reaction.

She merely offered a link, with no commentary other than the suggestion that some might find it interesting. If you disagree or are disinterested, skip it and forego the comments. It's a message board - by participating and reading, you take the good with the bad. But that doesn't mean you should offer a diatribe about one's social beliefs when you disagree.

I don't agree philosophically with many of the environmental movements espoused on the site, but I didn't attack her for it.
It's a good thing TexasVines isn't representative of the many fine, polite, and interesting people I have met from that great state.

DebAnne, I find you neither boorish nor a looser. Please ignore those without social graces such as this and continue to participate in you usual congenial manner.

Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were forced to live on nothing but food and water for days. - W. C. Fields
I didn't think I would ever read the sentence "a cool website about meat." Really? Cool? Maybe interesting, useful, helpful, insightful...not exactly cool.

I don't think I would keep it on my list of favorites, but I was slightly amused by The Meatrix...not enough to pass it on.

thanks for share though.


P.S. I work under the belief that there is no conspiricy to push cattle producers out of business. there is, however, a deep conspiricy to see Tiger Woods win all major golf tournaments.
While I have gotten along with DebAnne on this board in the past I must say I think this link is a little out of line. On the other side of the coin I think Texasvines is a little harsh, but I kind of appreciate his/her sentiment.

While I'm not sure I empathize with corporate farming I think that it's because of this "technology" that we are all able to eat what we like. If everyone was organic there wouldn't be enough food to sustain our population. It's simple economics, and nothing more or less. There is not enough land to provide the supply to keep up with demand if all our meat and veggies and fruit were to be grown organically. We need to use every technology available to keep food cheap and plentiful. The alternative is to put up with things like the great (irish) potato famine.

I too am a little insulted by this link. I am a physician and I hate it when I have a patient who is of a particular religion/sect who feels that they have to lecture me on their beliefs or leave literature in my office. I don't tell you what to believe in (or how to eat), you shouldn't tell me.

Sorry, DebAnne, I think this was over the line.

Yes, but I came here for an argument.

Oh! Oh! I'm sorry, this is abuse.
I for one found it fun and interesting, even though it's diametrically opposite to my own beliefs. A bit like Michael Moore was before he started believiing his own publicity.

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
I agree that this website is typical anti meat propaganda but so what?

Now if we wanna really get pissed at DebAnne, let's beat her up for her stand on France! Wink

"One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."

Marcel Ayme`
I don't find it offensive at all. Personally, having grown up in a farming family I prefer beef and swine raised from open range farms rather than these factory farms. But, sometimes that isn't practical.

As for DebAnne, there is this nasty rumor circulating that I have been posting as DebAnne. This is totally untrue and while I understand where folks are coming from with their suspicion, I am insulted. Deb's posts are fluffy and, to be honest, tantalizingly funny at times, but I have had nothing to do with them.
When I printed this post it was with the intention that some might find it interesting. As I mentioned before, AND, I will reiterate for those who do not possess critical reading skills:


I have a right to say what I choose as you have a right to do the same.

I do not apologize for what I printed and I am certainly not going to delete it.

As for the **&%$## in Texas, do you plan to sue me like you did Oprah? You made yourself look just as ridiculous as she made others of your kind look!

As for the two Chicagoans who responded to this post. I am most disappointed. Neither of you have met me; still, you have the effrontery to judge me and belittle my words and my presence on these forums.

As for r2d2's comments about 'being insulted' to be considered 'me,' you didn't find it so insulting to email me and ask me to go along with your 'FLUFFY' scheme of fooling your cwm pals when you asked if you could print posts under my name:


"Love your posts. I was thinking of playing a joke on my fellow board members for my 2000 post. You see, I think some of the forum have the opinion that you are fictious alter ago of one of the Chicago board members. I don't know why, they just do. So, I was going to pretend that I was you and posted all your posts under my name."

It is obvious that idiots are not limited to Texas! There was no way that I would comply with such a STUPID request as I don't engage in 'frat boy antics!'

As for grossie's statements about me of going "over the line," you have no right to make such a statement to me. My presence on these forums is not to please you; nor to to kiss ass.

And as far as 'being offended goes,' I have read many messages from others, for which I found HIGHLY OFFENSIVE, still I acknowledge a person's right to say whatever she/he wants.

I joined these forums because I love wine and I wanted to know more about wine. It became obvious to me that some people on these forums know a great deal about wine and I was glad to join and looked forward to learning from them.

As for those of you who think my posts are 'not serious,' I don't present myself as someone who knows much about wine, because I don't. I am a novice. I know what I like, I want to know more about the wine that I like and I want to learn about other wines.

I thought these were friendly forums. I like to show humor and sometimes my humor tends to mask my not knowing as much as some of the other wine enthusiasts here.

I did not come here to offend. I came here to learn. I simply found a website that I thought you might want to take a look at. I found it interesting. If you did not find it so, that is not my problem and I don't intend to make it so.
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Why don't we call a spade a spade then? What is your opinion on commercial farming/cattle? Let us know so that we can all better understand your motivation in making this post. I don't want this to degrade into an argument over the benefits of organic vs conventional farming, I just want to know where you stand on this so that I can understand why you would post this here.

If I posted about every socio-political cause that I believed I would get boo-ed off the forum, and rightly so. If you want to know what happens when politics get discussed here just do a little search with the words "France", "Germany" or "Israel" with the former member "mass mess" as the poster. If these threads still exist (they've probably been deleted) you'll find some beauties.

I've enjoyed your presence on these forums. I don't figure you're here to please me. Likewise, I'm not here to please you. If you are offended by being called out, I'm very sorry for you.

Yes, but I came here for an argument.

Oh! Oh! I'm sorry, this is abuse.
Calm down, people... it's just a website. If you are comfortable with what you believe/eat/purchase, then laugh at it and ignore it. All I saw was "The Meatrix" link, and a search engine to organic farms in your area. Big deal.

Personally... seems like a balance between the two views would benefit everyone. Are we all going to die because we eat meat? NO. Should certain practices in the industry today be eliminated or regulated more carefully... probably. There is a "factory hog farm" in Gahanna, OH that is exactly like the one in that cartoon... we know a dentist that lives down the street from it and has seen it personally. He tells it like it is... he's not a "die-hard veggie head hippie"... just a normal guy. Stuff like that happens... does not mean it happens everywhere, and does not mean that meat = bad.

This got me thinking about steak... might go buy some to grill tonight since it is freaking 60 degrees in January.

Thanks for leaving off the rest of my email where is said that "I didn't think the joke would be funny, so I changed my mind" as well as said I enjoyed your posts and invited you to the get together last evening. I never had any intention of utilizing your screen name for posting purposes. My sarcastic comments about being insulted where directed not in your way, but towards others.

I have no beef with you.

[This message was edited by R2-D2 on Jan 03, 2004 at 03:37 PM.]
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Look at it this way, out of all the animal cruelty sites out there, this was about the most benign...hell, it still even advocates eating meat! If you want something, shocking...think "Faces of Death" shocking...just ask. Big Grin

Granted, I think that it was inappropriate to post such a link in this forum, but we have to remember, DebAnne is fairly new to the boards and doesn't quite have all the rules down. Hell, I've read a lot of other threads from posters with a lot more experience who do the same thing.

The problem is this: On-line boards often are so engaging that people sometimes forget that they are meant to have a "theme," and treat it more like a living room. Such is the cause of so many NWR topics. We all have become accustomed to each other, regard each other as friends, and we have the urge to share what we find interesting. We forget that there are hundreds of other people reading these boards who are not looking for random "cool" things, but information about wine and food. There are thousands of other boards out there appropriate for debating the ethics of factory farming, but unfortunately, this isn't one of them.

DebAnne, personally, I thought the site was interesting as well. But perhaps it should have been placed in the Madder than Hell forum or somewhere else. Granted, you would have gotten the same responses, but, such is life. Everyone will have their own opinions and hopefully we can all talk about them in a civil manner. Just not here. If you are interested in some of those sites, go ahead and e-mail me and I will send you a list.

Just my 2 cents.

Grape Lakes Wine Appreciation Guild

Great seeing you last Sat...It was a blast!

As for these allegations, I'll let you answer that one. You remember medical school...I've been registered for 2 years; DebAnne 2-3 months...and already she has more posts than me! Big Grin

I would think it safe to say that I am not DebAnne. Although, the evidence is pretty damning...let's take a look... Eek

...She posts a link about factory farming--My known dietary practices

...She posts a link about Trotters on NYE--My known admiration for the restaurant and chef

...The prolific posting of DebAnne--My many nights of having hours to kill at 3am waiting for the damn hemogram to come back while on call

...My recent psychotic break and diagnosis of multiple personality disorder

Will the real DebAnne, please stand up? Please stand up, please stand up...

TPFIC (tongue-planted-firmly-in-cheek),
Is it any wonder that so many people are reluctant to come out of lurking mode and begin posting? Is it any suprise the overall quality of these forums has been in steady decline for some time now?

Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were forced to live on nothing but food and water for days. - W. C. Fields
Eric, these actions on message boards are nothing new. Honestly, people take what goes on here "way too seriously". Relax. Have some fun. Get stoned.

I invite everyone to read Mike Reed's website on Message Board Personalities and Flaming. See where you fit in in the wide world of internet message boards. It's a very funny read and you'll quickly realize that the actions here are nothing new and is merely a function of cyberculture.
Now I'm really curious! This is my first time on this forum, and from what I read from this particular discussion, it doesn't seem very open-minded. Confused I think I'm quite wrong in assuming that, but as far as I can see neither the pages the link lead to or DebAnne's first comment about where very offensive or aggressive.

I'm not very into organic food myself, but I still didn't see this as propaganda, and anyway there can't be much harm in a guide for where to get organic food. I'm starting to wonder whether I'm very naiv, but I don't think so ... Wink

Still fun to be here, though!
R2-D2, I've been around long enough to realize that, thanks. I've also been on this board long enough to see a significant decline in overall quality of content and a lack of new blood. If by relaxing you mean that all the crap and vitrol that is injected here and the flaming of new posters is acceptable, then fine - I'll curtail my participation on this forum even further and focus my attention on sites where standards are somewhat higher. If, however, you are interested in raising the quality of this board, then the community has the responsibility of holding posters to a higher standard (since WS clearly has no interest in moderating in any meaningful way).

Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were forced to live on nothing but food and water for days. - W. C. Fields
look at what they been saying and how they handle it.i am new to the forum an what deb posted did not bother me at all.look at the thread, follow the 21month twinns know when to stop. what does bother me is that deb is gone an some of them have no room to be judgeing people on any thread.i have worked with some of the biggest name in food and wine over30 years an still learning about food and wine, people and life. some never will. and some sound very lonely. an take it out on others. we need to ask her back. Frown Smile
Only 5 more posts for me to win the bet!

Eric- I disagree with your comment about the quality etc... This board has phases, better and worse, quieter and busier. I'm not even sure we're in a lull now. Also, DebAnne was no newbie. 250 or so posts is not exactly new.

I think if she had started this thread with "Organic vs conventional- what do you think?" or something like that then no one would have gotten excited. The fact that it was couched as "a cool website about meat" is certainly what peaved me, and I think what got Texas excited.

We are all entitled to our opinions (except me apparently as TBird pointed out), but don't try to sell me hunk of **** and tell me it's a diamond. If you want to sell your hunk of **** then at least have the decency to say to me "do you want to buy my hunk of ****?".

(the gratuitous use of the word siht here is mostly to get the censors to pay attention, I could have used a different analogy, only this was more fun. Big Grin)

RD- hilarious link!

Yes, but I came here for an argument.

Oh! Oh! I'm sorry, this is abuse.
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Certainly one can argue whether the board is better or worse today than in the past, that's subject to ones own interpretation. From my perspective, this board was much more vibrant a year ago than it is today. My only point is that members here should create a welcoming environment, rather than hop on any opportunity to flame. Even if DebAnne's post was self-serving, what possible good can come of the reactions seen on this thread? Are people really incapable of dealing with such matters civilly?

Perhaps so, as evidenced over and over again by the ridiculous posts of those unable to exercise self control.

Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were forced to live on nothing but food and water for days. - W. C. Fields

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