Een and spo: I apologise for putting you on the defensive. My intent wasn't to pick on either of you. I just saw myself in some of your comments. Blue gal and I have had to eat our words for some of the comments we made about other people's kids (and parenting styles) before we had our own.
Een: I completely agree with your comments about parents allowing thier kids to misbehave in a restaurant. It anoyed me before we had kids and it annoys me now. That is exactly why we remove our children when they are unruly. Also, I respect your decision not to have kids. Don't think that Blue gal and I haven't ever questioned our decision to have them. In the end, I wouldn't trade it for the world.
Cheers, Red guy
---------- "Sometimes when I reflect back on all the wine I drink I feel shame. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the vineyards and all of their hopes and dreams . If I didn't drink this wine, they might be out of work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to myself, 'It is better that I drink this wine and let their dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver."
- Jack Handy
Posts: 1114 | Location: San Diego | Registered: Jan 17, 2006
No sweat, Red Guy. I do not have kids so there are some things I cannot relate to. I think parenting will be tough. I am subject to moods and have a hard time being consistent. Some people out there just frighten me.
I am new to this site and I just wanted to introduce myself as well as reply to your comment. First of all, you are quite the sociologist. And the only reason I say that is because I am getting my masters in Sociology and reading your post triggered a class discussion we had a couple weeks ago.
I completely agree with you, as far being aware of other people's etiquette skills or lack there of. The older I get, the more I notice that others aren't as receptive to being as "civilized" as I hope to be. From a sociological perspective, I think this is due to shifting from one class to the next. I grew up in a family that was well off, I mean I didn't have a pony or a butler, but I certainly didn't see my parents drinking fancy wine and eating filet mignons. So I ask myself, why do I find myself craving little delicacies like fine chocolate or great glass of red wine, with perhaps a great piece of cheese to go with it? Is it because acquiring these tastes put me in a different class, a higher class. So, that's my question. I guess I am suggesting that the reason why you feel this way about etiquette is because it is familiar to your class. I suppose those outside of it have different customs and inherent etiquette skills.
Sorry for the long reply. I loved your question. I wish I could have more time to think about this stuff outside of school, but unfortunately my job demands take precedence. I recently got a new job in marketing and that is keeping super busy especially with all the new information being thrown at me.
Hope to hear from you!
Posts: 69 | Location: Arlington, VA | Registered: Mar 14, 2007
Peripherally linked to real-life etiquette, I'm often amused by internet etiquette or lack thereof, which seems based on both convention and expectation. For example, forum "newbies" ought not to denigrate the regulars or even write controversial posts until they have established their credentials. Anything goes when responding to a perceived spammer, etc.
Years ago, I was always impressed by a prolific wine poster who ended each of his tasting notes with, "Thanks for reading." I always thought that was a nice-- and polite-- touch, though I rarely if ever emulated it.
___________________________
Cheers!
Posts: 6490 | Location: Vancouver, BC | Registered: Oct 17, 2001
If you're looking for subjects for sociology class discussions, you've come to the right place.
Although class can have some bearing on this, I'm not really sure it's at all definitive. I've met wealthy boors and socially adept folk from lower socio-economic levels.
Our family was solidly lower middle class when my parents began raising us. In lean times, bread and gravy for dinner was not uncommon. We did eat it politely, holding the silverware properly, asking politely for the salt (gotta have salt on the bread and gravy.) No elbows on the table. Please and thank you. May I be excused when we wished to leave the table. We were raised to pull out seats for the ladies at the table. I still do this, and get really strange looks from many.
PH
Posts: 9625 | Location: Maryland, USA (DC suburbs) | Registered: Nov 22, 2003
Originally posted by PurpleHaze: If you're looking for subjects for sociology class discussions, you've come to the right place.
Although class can have some bearing on this, I'm not really sure it's at all definitive. I've met wealthy boors and socially adept folk from lower socio-economic levels.
Our family was solidly lower middle class when my parents began raising us. In lean times, bread and gravy for dinner was not uncommon. We did eat it politely, holding the silverware properly, asking politely for the salt (gotta have salt on the bread and gravy.) No elbows on the table. Please and thank you. May I be excused when we wished to leave the table. We were raised to pull out seats for the ladies at the table. I still do this, and get really strange looks from many.
PH
I for one have always had great appreciation for you pulling out the chair for me.
why are the majority of women completely mannerless when it womes to door etiquette?
In my family men were expected to hold the door, and my sisterswhile not expected to hold the door for men, they were expected to notice who and what was behind them and at least let a hand stay on the door until the person behind them enters and can hold the door for themselves. If they person behind them was elderly, they were expected to hold the door for them. This requires looking over your shoulder.
I can't tell you the number of times that women never glance backwards and let it slam in your face. Wassup wit dat?
Originally posted by PurpleHaze: If you're looking for subjects for sociology class discussions, you've come to the right place.
Although class can have some bearing on this, I'm not really sure it's at all definitive. I've met wealthy boors and socially adept folk from lower socio-economic levels.
Our family was solidly lower middle class when my parents began raising us. In lean times, bread and gravy for dinner was not uncommon. We did eat it politely, holding the silverware properly, asking politely for the salt (gotta have salt on the bread and gravy.) No elbows on the table. Please and thank you. May I be excused when we wished to leave the table. We were raised to pull out seats for the ladies at the table. I still do this, and get really strange looks from many.
PH
I agree. I know very wealthy people who are classless. When my daughter started dating, my husband instilled in her that a gentleman does not honk for her to come out to the car, would not tolerate it, and he would watch to see if her date opened the car door for her. At first, it was 'oh Dad..., and then it became something she expected.
Given the social climate these days, it would, wouldn't it...? My husband has also taught my daughter how to throw a football and to change a tire AND brake pads...just in case, mind you.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Darlene,
Originally posted by PurpleHaze: If you're looking for subjects for sociology class discussions, you've come to the right place.
Although class can have some bearing on this, I'm not really sure it's at all definitive. I've met wealthy boors and socially adept folk from lower socio-economic levels.
Our family was solidly lower middle class when my parents began raising us. In lean times, bread and gravy for dinner was not uncommon. We did eat it politely, holding the silverware properly, asking politely for the salt (gotta have salt on the bread and gravy.) No elbows on the table. Please and thank you. May I be excused when we wished to leave the table. We were raised to pull out seats for the ladies at the table. I still do this, and get really strange looks from many.
PH
PH,
I read this and had to laugh since it could describe my house when I was growing up. But then you and I are of an age. Bread and gravy and asking to be excused from the table, etc.
Let me add a couple of others. Shirts are worn to the table, not undershirts (that was before the days of T-shirts being the norm); the milk is in a pitcher, no cartons on the table and the person who empties it goes and fills it back up; you know when dinner is, show up on time unless you have permission to not be there; and no feeding the dog from the table. If I don't get up when a woman comes to the table I'm sitting at I still flinch thinking I'm going to get kicked in the shin by my mother.
The other I remember vividly was that I was never allowed to call an adult by their first name. Even if they said "Call me Jim" I had to tell them that my parents preferred that I call adults Mr. or Mrs. It wasn't until I was about 16 that the rule changed, (and then only for those adults I knew well and who were not my parents age or older.)
Recently someone told me that they were so impressed because I stood up when they entered my office. I didn't tell them that I did so because they were more likely to leave sooner if I wasn't sitting down.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: dinwiddie,
When in doubt, open another bottle.
Posts: 2242 | Location: Silver Spring MD (Near DC) | Registered: Nov 13, 2001
I'm glad I finally got to read through this thread. Great subject. My own personal weakness is the written thank you note, I always forget. I'm good at email, but it's just a huge brain fart to send the note. Most of the time I remember 5-6 days later and Stefania goes, "Sent it already".
PurpleHaze's bread story made me laugh. My mom always says: "We weren't really poor when you were growing up, we always knew where the next meal was coming from. The meal after that though, that was sometimes dicey."
Paul Romero (tlily)- Owner, Winemaker, Tour Guide Stefania Wine http://www.stefaniawine.com
Posts: 5726 | Location: San Jose | Registered: May 24, 2002
I remember having my mom inspect my hands before dinner to make sure I washed. "Turn them over," was the final command. If the nails weren't clean, back to the sink I went.
Yes, dinwiddie! We are of an age, I guess. Standing when a lady returns to the table. Please pass the salt as opposed to reaching across the table and grabbing it.
Feeding the dog? Now, I was an artist at this. Especially when lima beans were on the plate. I would get the knuckle in the back of my head from my pops if I got busted, but frankly the reward of getting rid of the goddamned lima beans was worth the risk!
Same thing with first names and adults. I was permitted to call them Mr. Jim or Missus Amy, or Aunt and Uncle........ (fill in the first name) but I still err on the side of formality with names and my elders to this day.
PH
Posts: 9625 | Location: Maryland, USA (DC suburbs) | Registered: Nov 22, 2003
I enjoyed reading everyone's comments and I am sorry that some of you thought my post was controversial or insincere. Quite the contrary, I was very much intrigued by the topic and thought I'd chime in.
Continuing on then, I agree, in many instances our socio economic class does not define our actions completely, meaning that even the wealthy have animalistic instincts and don't have proper etiquette. I especially enjoyed reading the comment about the doorholding and looking back to see who is behind you, making sure they don't get slammed in the face. I try to do this all the time for the most part, and also along these lines holding the elevator door for someone who is approaching the elevator, instead of pretending you don't see them as the door shuts. I had that happen to me yesterday, where I was the person trying to get on the elevator and the lady inside didn't push the open door button in time so the door shut, she yelled, I am sorry! as she descended down. I thought that was incredibly thoughtful and respectful. Its very rare I get see those types of interactions. But I certainly, expect them.
Posts: 69 | Location: Arlington, VA | Registered: Mar 14, 2007
Just noticed your location. Keep an eye on the local offline threads and join us. We practice proper etiquette at these offlines with the exception of an occasional bread basket burning and other minor faux pas.
PH
Posts: 9625 | Location: Maryland, USA (DC suburbs) | Registered: Nov 22, 2003
Thank you for the invitation. That would be fun, I actually saw that you guys get together and meet every now and then. So, what is the usually happens at one of these gatherings? Great discussions about wine and travels I suppose?
Posts: 69 | Location: Arlington, VA | Registered: Mar 14, 2007
I agree. I know very wealthy people who are classless. When my daughter started dating, my husband instilled in her that a gentleman does not honk for her to come out to the car, would not tolerate it, and he would watch to see if her date opened the car door for her. At first, it was 'oh Dad..., and then it became something she expected.
