OZ will be a fiasco.

tech will be having their hands full. Any rule should be established at least 2 -3 months PRIOR to a race, not a few weeks.

Surprised to see Button so fast in the Braun.

So the Brawn team have Button and Barrichello on the front row in an extraordinary turnround for the ex Honda team.

On the other hand let's see how these new designs hold up [all teams] in the race.

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Groundwater:
So the Brawn team have Button and Barrichello on the front row in an extraordinary turnround for the ex Honda team.

On the other hand let's see how these new designs hold up [all teams] in the race.

Or survive all protests for such designs.

I remember someone saying OZ will be a fiasco

I'm gunning for a Barrichello win. I don't like Button (he'll finish 2nd). The Brawn cars are too fast and will pull away early, unless someone rearends them. I see Massa in the top 3, with Vettel and Kubica right behind. Even with all the politics, I'm glad F1 is back.

Oh...and so sad about Hamilton and McLaren's car issues....NOT !

quote:

Originally posted by Mezzo Litro:
I remember someone saying OZ will be a fiasco

I'm gunning for a Barrichello win. I don't like Button (he'll finish 2nd). The Brawn cars are too fast and will pull away early, unless someone rearends them. I see Massa in the top 3, with Vettel and Kubica right behind. Even with all the politics, I'm glad F1 is back.

Oh...and so sad about Hamilton and McLaren's car issues....NOT !

Yeah Mezzo as objective and unbiased as ever.

Let's see how it all turns out but surely hope the appeals and protests can be kept to a minimum.

So what did we learn? Brawn is clearly the fastest, but not so much so that they can't be caught. Vettel and Kubica are great drivers, but still a bit immature. The red cars have a lot of catching up to do. So does, to a lesser extent, McLaren. The new cars are butt ugly and have no where near enough rear wing. The tire choices are a joke. Racing at dusk is just plain stupid. The stewarts still have no clue. That about sums it up, on to Malaysia.

Great race for Team Brawn. Unlucky result for Trulli. And I agree about Vettel and Kubica. They showed poor judgement and inexperience. And Vettel driving around the track with a broken tire was real stoopid. He deserves the 10 spot penalty and the $50K fine. And Hamilton showed 'it's not over 'til it's over'. The red cars have a lot of work. But so do most of the teams when compared to the Brawn cars.

quote:

Originally posted by VT2IT:
So what did we learn? Brawn is clearly the fastest, but not so much so that they can't be caught. Vettel and Kubica are great drivers, but still a bit immature. The red cars have a lot of catching up to do. So does, to a lesser extent, McLaren. The new cars are butt ugly and have no where near enough rear wing. The tire choices are a joke. Racing at dusk is just plain stupid. The stewarts still have no clue. That about sums it up, on to Malaysia.

Nothing to disagree with here and the balanced and reasonable judgements [stewards are a rational exception] about individuals certainly helps

Let's see what Malaysia offers

quote:

Originally posted by VT2IT:
So what did we learn? Brawn is clearly the fastest, but not so much so that they can't be caught. Vettel and Kubica are great drivers, but still a bit immature. The red cars have a lot of catching up to do. So does, to a lesser extent, McLaren. The new cars are butt ugly and have no where near enough rear wing. The tire choices are a joke. Racing at dusk is just plain stupid. The stewarts still have no clue. That about sums it up, on to Malaysia.

AMEN!! Red Bull team forgot how to drive, and also obey rules. You don't ;eave a broken car on the track.

Think Toyota may win appeal.

Kimi found a wall again.

Only one McLaran driver, and one crasher.

You think stewards are supposed to be rational? A safety car out longer than required??

At least there was a bit more passing this year.

Better next week???

No wonder they call that place OZ, like a bad dream.

PS: Oh Canada in 2009???

Nigel, why did they DQ Hamilton?

quote:

Originally posted by Mezzo Litro:
Nigel, why did they DQ Hamilton?

He lied to the stewards when they were investigating Trulli's pass under yellow. The lie was the basis for Trulli's penalty (now recinded).

1. The radio communications between teams and drivers, available now plus other relevant commentary to anybody who can be bothered to follow this fiasco, was available to the stewards, in real time I believe, but was certainly are there to be reviewed immediately on demand.

Is it conceivable that the stewards would not have reviewed both the Toyota and McLaren team transmissions when reviewing their relegation of Trulli as well as the ample video evidence of both Hamilton's initial overtake of Trulli and vice versa - both under the safety car?

Only an organisation as heroically incompetent as these stewards have been for a long time now could manage that.

I don't believe in conspiracies but incompetence is a gilt-edged certainty for most things that depend on big money theses days.

2. It has apparently been confirmed [why else did Toyota officially withdraw their appeal against Trulli's penalty] that Hamilton's overtake was ok but Trulli's wasn't - since Hamilton had simply slowed but not gone off the track. Presumably Trulli could have slowed too or backed off enough to let Hamilton continue ahead. How could it possibly matter what McLaren was saying to Hamilton or vice versa at that point. In any case the race was over to all intents and purposes by then anyway.

3. As far as Trulli was concerned he either thought that he was entitled to pass [but would have been wrong apparently] or he passed illegally. He certainly would have had no access to what Hamilton thought [that he was entitled to stay in front] or the McLaren team thought [uncertainty but told Hamilton to let Trulli through].

4. The McLaren team would have had no motive in inducing Trulli to pass illegally since they were ahead under the safety car and their 3rd position was protected by the safety car.

As far as the stewards were concerned they only had to judge those aspects and to do that they would surely have gathered all the relevant video and audio evidence available around the 2 incidents.

4. From McLaren's point of view, if Trulli was entitled to pass [which he wasn't but McLaren thought apparently that he was/might have been but couldn't get confirmation from Race Control in time] he had done so and all the stewards needed to decide was whether Trulli's penalty should have been big i.e. 25 seconds [ridiculously harsh IMO with the race virtually over] or whether the positions should simply have been re-established prior to that pass - Hamilton 3rd and Trulli 4th.

Or my preferred solution, taking all the available evidence into account, which would have been to allow the positions to stand in the order they crossed the line. I can provide a rationale for that with all the evidence to hand but it’s not worth pursuing.

5. Now we come to the murky piece. It is clear that the stewards had not done a proper investigation using obvious evidence like the radio transmissions around the 2 passes. If they had done the obvious minimum why did they need to ask McLaren what they had said to Hamilton or ask Hamilton what McLaren had or had not said to him?

Why did McLaren apparently deny what was obviously there to be listened to and why did [apparently] Hamilton confirm their incorrect version. We can hear on the radio that Hamilton did not believe he had transgressed and wanted to take back his position but was prevented by McLaren for doing so. From the radio it seems that, during a break in the dialogue, he had slowed following a previous instruction and Trulli had gone past and he subsequently kept asking for permission to re-pass but the race ended before clarification was forthcoming.

For McLaren to start denying something that could and obviously would finally be checked [even a thick bunch of stewards might get round to doing the obvious] there are several explanations: but the most likely would seem that they thought that their incorrect concerns about Hamilton overtaking Trulli and their subsequent instruction to Hamilton to let him pass had somehow ‘legalised’ Trulli’s pass under the Safety car. That they had in fact handed a 3rd place to Trulli unecessessarily.

How might this have happened? IMO a reasonable assumption is that when the stewards were interviewing McLaren and Hamilton they intimated something like that and at that point McLaren attempted to deny their error and Hamilton was left to either contradict his team or support them on the basis that that is what he had wanted and argued for all along. The fact that he had already given an interview stating something else would only have occurred to a practised liar.

If that’s what happened it was a stupid lie and I will make no defence of it. I will say though that the stewards judgement of Trulli’s action should have been about what he did and the fact that, whatever his [Trulli’s] belief at the time had been, he was not entitled to pass Hamilton and keep that position.

Unless they are saying that he somehow gained that right [despite having no knowledge of the circumstances] because of what McLaren had said to Hamilton. As I say, Toyota’s withdrawal of their appeal prior to the later [far too delayed] investigations, provides further insight into the confusion.

McLaren’s failure to tell it like it was merits a penalty. Hamilton’s unwillingness to contradict his team is also a failure but bearing in mind his disagreement with the original decision is more understandable but still worthy of censure.

However the growing murmurs of moral outrage stand uneasily inside a ‘sport’ as morally and financially bankrupt as F1.

Nevertheless the stewards again showed what an incompetent bunch of t*ss*rs they are.

Let’s see if this moves into a situation where the stewards seek an even greater penalty against Hamilton. While I make no excuses for what appears to have happened Hamilton’s move from the back of the grid to close to a podium finish was one of the few interesting features of the race.

By the way Mezzo was your query genuine or were you just being you and enjoying the moment?

quote:

By the way Mezzo was your query genuine or were you just being you and enjoying the moment?

Did I not say on a previous post that OZ will be a fiasco?

Cannot belive the tranpirings in the last 2 days. I thought it was an April Fools joke first I heard it.

Also see Rubens got set back 5 postions for gear box change.

Maybe this race may be better, but doubt it

Nigel, I was being genuine. And after reading your post and some other writings on this event, Hamilton/McLaren got what they deserved. Actually, the team penalty should be bigger.

This is from my favourite website (F1-Racing.com):

"I was instructed and misled by my team manager to withhold information, and that is what I did," said Hamilton, referring to Sporting Director Ryan.

This reminds me so much of the movie "A Few Good Men".

The FIA Stewards asking sporting director David Ryan: (shouting) DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED !?"

Ryan: (shouting) YOU'RE G@D DAMN RIGHT I DID !"

Hamilton was stuck. Either lie or disobey a direct order. Result....David Ryan has been, and rightfully so, suspended by McLaren. I feel bad for Hamilton. This was not his fault.

Hamilton is driving for the wrong team. They want to win so bad that they continually cheat and get caught. Hamilton driving the 'red prancing horse' would absolve him of all his sins.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mezzo Litro,

quote:

Originally posted by Florida Wino:
Did I not say on a previous post that OZ will be a fiasco?

Cannot belive the tranpirings in the last 2 days. I thought it was an April Fools joke first I heard it.

Also see Rubens got set back 5 postions for gear box change.

Maybe this race may be better, but doubt it

You did and you were right on the money.

Your incredulity is shared by many I think regardless of their natural prejudices. It certainly is by me.

I hadn't noticed the Rubens penalty. How long after the race was that imposed? I will look it up but I suppose Rubens was a little lucky to have got away so lightly [until this ruling] considering his various other contacts in the race.

Your comments in anticipation of the race in Malaysia are entirely logical too. God help F1 if they continue to make it impossible for eventual results to have a good relationship to the order across the line.

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Groundwater:

quote:

Originally posted by Florida Wino:
Did I not say on a previous post that OZ will be a fiasco?

Cannot belive the tranpirings in the last 2 days. I thought it was an April Fools joke first I heard it.

Also see Rubens got set back 5 postions for gear box change.

Maybe this race may be better, but doubt it

You did and you were right on the money.

Your incredulity is shared by many I think regardless of their natural prejudices. It certainly is by me.

I hadn't noticed the Rubens penalty. How long after the race was that imposed? I will look it up but I suppose Rubens was a little lucky to have got away so lightly [until this ruling] considering his various other contacts in the race.

Your comments in anticipation of the race in Malaysia are entirely logical too. God help F1 if they continue to make it impossible for eventual results to have a good relationship to the order across the line.

Rubens changed after practice

quote:

Originally posted by Mezzo Litro:
Nigel, I was being genuine. And after reading your post and some other writings on this event, Hamilton/McLaren got what they deserved. Actually, the team penalty should be bigger.

This is from my favourite website (F1-Racing.com):

"I was instructed and misled by my team manager to withhold information, and that is what I did," said Hamilton, referring to Sporting Director Ryan.

This reminds me so much of the movie "A Few Good Men".

The FIA Stewards asking sporting director David Ryan: (shouting) DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED !?"

Ryan: (shouting) YOU'RE G@D DAMN RIGHT I DID !"

Hamilton was stuck. Either lie or disobey a direct order. Result....David Ryan has been, and rightfully so, suspended by McLaren. I feel bad for Hamilton. This was not his fault.

Hamilton is driving for the wrong team. They want to win so bad that they continually cheat and get caught. Hamilton driving the 'red prancing horse' would absolve him of all his sins.

Well you might feel somewhat sorry for Hamilton but our English press are doing what they do best and seeking to drag down what little achievement this small island has going for it these days.

The British [essentially English] press is musing the possibility of race bans, or total exclusion from the world championship. That would certainly help them sell more papers.

But the worst damage is likely to be to the reigning world champion's image. And the more they can do the better chance they will have to sell even more.

The Daily Star headlined the story 'Liar Lewis', and The Sun tabloid said 'You're a liar, Lewis'.

Yep with friends like those who needs enemies

I'm sure Alonso has a big smirk on his face in light of this Hamilton/Ryan news.

quote:

Originally posted by Mezzo Litro:
I'm sure Alonso has a big smirk on his face in light of this Hamilton/Ryan news.

Of course he has but whether that smirk quite offsets the pain in his ear is another matter.

Of course he could not resist adding his voice to the issue of McLaren's economy with the truth but I can also remember certain tricks he got up to when driving for that organisation.

And that stunted little despot Bernie 'the deserted' Ecclestone should perhaps be a little more introspective before throwing too many stones inside his own glasshouse of F1 which is in some danger of a credibility implosion.

Do not see any comments from the big Red Machine

Bet they are smirking too!!

I can't speak for F1, but in racing I've been involved with, a pass under yellow is legal if you are allowed by. The caveat being, you make sure you make the pass at a location on the track where marshalls will witness clearly that you are being allowed by, so race control will be informed and the fact is documented.

From the radio, McLaren were clearly concerned about being penalized. They were attempted to inquire with Charlie Whiting before and after Hamilton pulled over. That should be grounds for a simple reversal. The non-responsiveness from race control is unacceptable and incompetent. They (McLaren) shouldn't be penalized for that. Trulli's pass was allowed, it was legal (meaning Trulli shouldn't have been penalized), but it would be fair to reverse it.

Considering the tapes and how open Hamilton was with the media, my theory is some higher up at McLaren, who wasn't fully aware of all that had happened, ordered him to change his story. So, the pointy haired boss stepped in. I don't think he's that stupid. (Oh, now I see the quote Mezzo put up. Yup. Pointy haired boss. Poor poor Dilbert Hamilton.)

Team Brawn GP on the pole again. Should be another easy win for Button. But I like Trulli's chances too.

What a farce. Why do they even have a race in Malaysia? You know it's going to rain, and how many locals are into F1 anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by VT2IT:
What a farce. Why do they even have a race in Malaysia? You know it's going to rain, and how many locals are into F1 anyway?

Why indeed? Might it possibly be something to do with "show me the money"?

However if there are too many more fiascos like this and the Australian GP, F1 will gradually run out of support from most quarters.