quote:

Originally posted by Florida Wino:
BS

As elegant as ever - WTF one minute BS the next. This guy has real class!

Take it easy, guys. I know it's difficult to be totally objective in sports since we all have teams we cheer for. Nigel is a Brit, and will always cheer the British drivers. I'm Italian, and Ferrari is my team, no matter who drives. Obviously team colours are flying high today

Lets see:
1] I'm Norwegian, Viking
2] Lived & citizen of Canada & US
3] Favorite Wines: Spanish
4] Auto's: German
5] Clothing: Itaian / French

In case 1 & 2, no one applies
# 3; Alonso
# 4: A whole bunch of drivers
# 5: Many Italians & one 1 Frenchman.

In this sport I can not have a bias. I've had to report errors and penalties on many of my fav's and some times friends. If not I would not be doing my job.

We have enough bias officials in other sports, but motor racing is quite clean.

Nigel, does have right to supporting countrymen & team.

Having been on both sides of the steering wheel, I do know the rules, and courtesies. I have also been a steward & on penalty committee who had to investigate infractions, and accidents.

My name to Nigel is not important as he would not know me anyhow.

We will see in Singapore at the next meeting, to see where this whole thing plays out.

We should chill to then. I will!

Fla Wino....MONZA is next, not Singapore. MONZA ! How can you forget MONZA ?!

quote:

Originally posted by Mezzo Litro:
Take it easy, guys. I know it's difficult to be totally objective in sports since we all have teams we cheer for. Nigel is a Brit, and will always cheer the British drivers. I'm Italian, and Ferrari is my team, no matter who drives. Obviously team colours are flying high today

Nice one Mezzo and appreciate the gesture but actually I don't really support particular drivers to the exclusion of others and I don't hate or despise any either.

I am a Scot primarily but with French, Spanish, English and some German antecedents and spent 24 years in the international oil industry which included a large sponsorship of motor racing.

I just like fair play and I don't think that is what I saw on Sunday. I have always thought Kimi was a great driver in whatever car he has driven - although I could wish he didn't communicate like a Dalek.

It was really tough for him to get so close when so many seem to be writing him off -
only to lose it on the last laps in the rain - but it was tough on Massa to blow up a while ago having done the same….. and all others where bad luck has combined with other factors.

I understand why Ferrari attracts its many supporters but I don’t believe that fair play should be suspended whoever one supports although I can understand exultation in genuine achievement – which, in a race, is obviously at the expense of somebody else.

OTOH I don’t believe in the conspiracy or racist theories either although self-interest verging on corruption can certainly simulate a conspiracy.

You and I had disengaged from this debate but I wanted to acknowledge your peacemaking – not that it was really all out war surely? Nothing like the beastliness that accompanied the restaurant scam but your post was probably a timely ‘cease and desist’.

quote:

Originally posted by Florida Wino:
Lets see:
1] I'm Norwegian, Viking

Now maybe that explains a lot - since I said I was primarily a Scot [originally from the Orkneys] but my ancestors were Norwegian Vikings and my name is an Anglicised version of old Norse - Grunna Vatn - taken from the shallow bay where the Vikings came ashore on the mainland of Orkney many centuries ago.

Always ready for an argument. Pace

quote:

all others where bad luck has combined with other factors.

Think Mario said it best years ago, "if you didn't have bad luck, there would be no luck at all". He is the poster child for bad luck.

NG, I do support Ferrari first, but I am also an advocate of fair play, even though I know there are cheaters in every sport. Money makes religiously watched sporting events political (remember where you heard that first).

I've seen too many crazy rulings, in F1 or otherwise, to be naive to think fair play trumps all. When the "fix" is on, I get disgusted with sports' MIB (Men in Black), its players and its officiating (i.e. steroids in cycling, baseball, etc., cheating in the olympics - underage athletes, betting on the sport you're playing - Shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, NBA official Tim Donaghy). There's too much to list.

But when an "incident" happens, the rules must be adhered to and a penalty/ruling exacted. Sometimes the governing bodies can give a player/driver a 'slap on the wrist' and sometimes the penalty can be harsh. That usually comes down to history. If you're a complainer or a convicted cheat, you will always get the stiffer sentence. If you're well liked, you get off easy. These are the rules of MIB.

And NG, you could not have said it more correctly - "self-interest verging on corruption can certainly simulate a conspiracy". That's exactly what I'm referring to. There is lots of corruption in sports...but not in this case

Good god, where'd all this come from? I left yesterday with a few comments about the decision and come back to full blown war!

At danger of re-igniting something which was starting to simmer down today's Newspapers (British I hasten to add, so undoubtedly biased! ) state..
"Instead of celebrating one of the greatest duels of recent times, revelling in true genius by Raikkonen and Hamilton and lauding a remarkable win, that same old stench emanated from Formula One".
Nikki Lauda is quoted as saying "This is the worst judgement in the history of F1"

I suppose one of the most objective summaries comes from James Allen over on the F1 site - http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872 .

Personally I'm worried that F1 isn't the same beast I fondly remember over the last 20 or so years - and that some of the most enthralling driving I've seen over the last few years ended up being made completely pointless by the rule-worshippers.

Kimi-Hamilton Battle

Some fantastic footage ! Why don't they show this on tv ?!

McLaren may withdraw appeal according to Brit press this am.

McLaren have gone ahead with the appeal this pm according to several papers.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=35925

Drivers viewpoint

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=35930

Appeal status

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Florida Wino,

Well that was an interesting fight for pole. Toro Rosso first and fourth with Hamilton, Kubica and Kimi not even making the final session. Congrats to Vettel the youngest pole winner ever. Forecast is for more rain tomorrow. And to keep this wine related, what is all this rain doing to the grapes?

quote:

Originally posted by Mezzo Litro: Posted Sep 07, 2008 02:23 PM
Nigel... I think Hamilton is a great driver, but under the same circumstance (car, that is), I think Vettel is better.... That's just my opinion.

(pat on back for Mezzo)

quote:

Originally posted by Mezzo Litro:

quote:

Originally posted by Mezzo Litro: Posted Sep 07, 2008 02:23 PM
Nigel... I think Hamilton is a great driver, but under the same circumstance (car, that is), I think Vettel is better.... That's just my opinion.

(pat on back for Mezzo)

Great wind-up Mezzo but not even you could believe this one-off result could support your point.

I think you might just deserve your self-congratulation if Vettel beats Hamilton tomorrow [and finishes fairly close to where he starts] tomorrow and then wins a few more races.

And unless I was missing something, Vettel and Hamilton were certainly not driving the same car and, probably more importantly, were not on the same tires or on the circuit at the same time.

You're right Nigel. They are not driving the same car...Hamilton is driving a superior car to Vettel's.

Tomorrow's gonna be one crazy race.

quote:

Originally posted by Mezzo Litro:
You're right Nigel. They are not driving the same car...Hamilton is driving a superior car to Vettel's.

Tomorrow's gonna be one crazy race.

Of course you're right about Hamilton's car being superior but it was your quote that said “ same circumstance (car that is)”.

However what mattered was tire choice as Heidfeld proved with what he did with his last lap in an inferior car at Spa. Hamilton just got that wrong today and he paid a major penalty.

My point was the result does not make your case for Vettel's general superiority although like so many of the drivers he obviously has great skill. However his racing ability has not really been tested yet at this level.

I agree that the race tomorrow will be more interesting than usual with the grid providing a major factor.

BTW thank you for the clip of the Spa race you posted.

My predictions for tomorrow:

1. Massa
2. Heidfeld
3. Kubica

The rookie front-runners will take each other out in the first corner. And if they don't, they will not hang on to the lead.

If Kimi was behind Hamilton, who is in P15, I would venture to say that Hamilton would bolt to the top 5 in no time. But if the track is dry, he'll be behind Kimi 'til at least the first pit stop.

And I hope you guys/gals got to see the clip I posted, 'cause it's gone now. Great battle footage.

Forza Ferrari !!

quote:

Originally posted by Mezzo Litro:

"My predictions for tomorrow:

1. Massa
2. Heidfeld
3. Kubica

The rookie front-runners will take each other out in the first corner. And if they don't, they will not hang on to the lead."

Mezzo shouldn't that be rather than with your forecast above?

However Vettel who you rate above Hamilton [but was going to wipe out at the beginning you said and, if not, would not hang on to the lead] drove a brilliant race. Whatever can be said about good fortune and the fact that the Toro Rosso has a Ferrari engine and has been in the rank immediately behind Ferrari and McLaren, Vettel's drive at 21 was superb.

However I am still waiting for the stewards to disqualify Hamilton, who also drove better than his main rivals, for bumping wheels with Webber a bit like he did with Raikonnen at Spa - except this time the roles were reversed.

Nigel, I never claimed to be Nostradamus. Just a little knowledgable in auto racing.

Kudos to Vettel, TR and Ferrari. The only variable which could have changed his race was non-existant. Heikki drove the worst race for 2nd place I've ever seen. I'm sure he will have some explaining to do to Ron.

Kimi too cost Massa the Drivers' Championship lead. He made a mistake going into the chicane, which resulted in Hamilton setting him up and passing him. Hamilton too drove a great race, but he was never gonna make the podium after watching the clean start by the front runners.

And regarding Hamilton's bump...careful what you wish for. There's still time for the stewards to fault him.