Best I ever saw was the Earl of Baltimore. I saw him steal games from the Yankees. In one of them, Billy Martin went nuts as Weaver kept stalling and the game was eventually called due to rain, and the Yankees, leading by about 4 runs, lost the game because Baltimore hadn't finished batting in the bottom of the 7th and the score reverted back to the end of the previous inning when Baltimore lead. I thought Billy was going to pop a blood vessel.

Although I hated the guy then (being a met fan) - Whitey Herzog. He built the perfect team for his style in the mid 80's (especially 1985). All speed with one power hitter (Jack Clark). He was a maestro with his pitching staff. The Cardinals played on turf, so he played to his strenghts. 5 or 6 guys could steal bases anytime the wanted. Double steals, suicide squeezes, everything. Old school without having to hit 5 HR's a game to win like today. Herzog never managed a big payroll market team and always won. I happen to think he was the best field manager I ever saw. Retired too early though.

Billy Martin when he took over the Oakland A's in the early 80's was great too. After Finley sold off the team and turned the A's into resembling the movie "Major League" - Billy Ball emerged. I thought Billy was the total opposite of Joe Torre. Martin was at his best when he didn't have big money players around him. He was a pure teacher and baseball fundamentalist.

My heart says Sam Allardyce, but my head says Sir Alex Ferguson.

While I agree with some comments about how this is difficult to determine, I'd argue that Sparky Anderson should be in the conversation since he won with two teams in different leagues. Of course, that logic argues for LaRussa who I believe is dramatically overrated.

I don't remember Weaver that well but understand he was terrific. Martin was very good when his personality didn't destroy his efforts. [Ex-personality, he's like the Don Nelson of MLB.] Jim Leyland appears quite good as well.

Of the active guys, I'm partial to Scioscia. While I'm biased as an Angel fan, I'm impressed with his even keeled approach and his game knowledge. He seems like a terffic leader.

As we know with Torre (a "failed" manager before joining the Yanks) so much of this is fit with the players and organization. In general, I don't believe a good baseball manager can take his'un and beat your'un and then take your'un and beat his'un.

Neil

Tony LaRussa is the worst thing to happen to baseball since the 1919 Black Sox.

He invented the 4 1/2 hour baseball game and turned a nice afternoon in the park into an endless marathon.

I remember him challenging Buck Showalter to a fight.

...Bobby Cox...(as kybo quietly sinks back into the shadows)...

Cox is definitely good (and I'm not carrying a telltale location like kybo) but he is tainted (fairly or not) by his team's inability to win in the post-season.

Paul--I can't stand LaRussa either. Game is somehow always about him and the press loves him irrationally.

Neil

Former Cubs manager Joe McCarthy. I think he also managed the Yankees for a while.

24 seasons between 3 teams and never had a losing record. 7 World Series championships. 9 pennants.

.615 lifetime winning percentage. I believe that is the best winning percentage among all manager with more than 100 wins.

VM

Any serious conversations about “best baseball manager ever” would have to include John McGraw and Casey Stengel.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Tong BBP:
My heart says Sam Allardyce, but my head says Sir Alex Ferguson.

My heart says John Sillett, my head says Bob Paisley.

Tommy Lasorda is an all time great.

quote:

Any serious conversations about “best baseball manager ever” would have to include John McGraw and Casey Stengel.

My answer was based on my era and who I saw. Plenty of greats back then.

I will say any manager with a good team (like Stengel with the Yankees in the 50's) had a pretty big advantage. The Yankees were always loaded and there so many ****ty teams in the American league and no playoff rounds. All you had to do was finish first and you were in the world series.

I know (to the Yankee fans) that I never give them real credit and always say they have had an unfair advantage - but they always have and in the 20's-60's it was even worse than today.

Certainly, McCarthy, Stengal, McGraw, and maybe Mack are on the list of all-time greats but who of us have any direct knowledge of them except for Stengal?

As for Lasorda, he's in the Hall of Fame but how do we know he was an all-time great? I liked him when I lived in LA and you can't beat him for enthusaism but his overall winning percentage is .526 and he has a reputation for destroying his pitchers.

Also, since he only managed for one franchise, it's touch to really tell how good he was. He is top five for entertainment value in my mind.

Neil

quote:

Originally posted by Neil K.:
Certainly, McCarthy, Stengal, McGraw, and maybe Mack are on the list of all-time greats but who of us have any direct knowledge of them except for Stengal?

Even though Connie Mack has about 1000 more wins as a manager than anyone else, I wouldn't put him among the best ever because overall he had a losing record.

As far as direct knowledge, I'd bet that Board-O has seen them all manage. He probably even remembers Miller Huggins who last managed the Yankees in 1929.

VM

quote:

Originally posted by Neil K.:
Certainly, McCarthy, Stengal, McGraw, and maybe Mack are on the list of all-time greats but who of us have any direct knowledge of them except for Stengal?

As for Lasorda, he's in the Hall of Fame but how do we know he was an all-time great? I liked him when I lived in LA and you can't beat him for enthusaism but his overall winning percentage is .526 and he has a reputation for destroying his pitchers.

Also, since he only managed for one franchise, it's touch to really tell how good he was. He is top five for entertainment value in my mind.

Neil

Neil,
Astute commentary on your part. I believe baseball managers have a small impact stewarding the game on the field. Strategy for the most part is a crap shoot. The bigger impact these guys have is cultivating players and creating positive karma in the club house (keep the millionares from killing each other).
As far as Lasorda burning out pitchers, what manager alive or dead hasn't been accused of that at some point in their career. See Joe Torre.

Wes Westrum....

WW-

Thanks and I agree the impact is largely in the things you mention. Their impact in those areas is very difficult to determine. Also, Lasorda's record on pitcher burnouts is considered to be particularly bad. Guys like Scioscia, Cox, et. al. have not been accused of this that I know of.

As for my Mack reference, that was meant in jest and to see if any old Philadelpia stories (like those I heard from my grandfather) get stirred up.

Neil

Lasorda was bullet proof in LA. He had a long leash. Some very good years and some weak ones. He never had to worry about his job.

quote:

Even though Connie Mack has about 1000 more wins as a manager than anyone else, I wouldn't put him among the best ever because overall he had a losing record.

That and he managed for 50 years. You get that kind of job security when you own the team.

The best baseball manager of all time was the guy who told his players to hurry up so they wouldn't interfere with the TV start time of the football game.

_____

Oh, and give the award to Dick Williams during those crazy years when the A's won three World Series in a row.

He should have been given an honorary psychology degree.

Remember that fake intentional walk? Enough said.

Weaver - "... pitching, defense, and three run homers..."

Leyland is impressive being so successful in Pittsburgh, Florida, and Detroit.

Phil Garner is full proof that when a manager guesses right, he gets to the World Series with the Astros. When he guesses incorrectly and there are injuries matched with a thin line-up, you end up somewhere near the bottom.

I do miss the antics and personalities of many managers in the 60's and 70's like Billy Martin, Lasorda, Dick Williams, and a few others although you wouldn't want your children to listen to any of Lasorda's spouting off as there were plenty of f-bombs, often every other word. Today's managers seem so politically correct and boring by comparison.

I do rememeber that the Mets brought in Casey Stengel to manage in their first years to create interest in the new franchise.

Earl Weaver. Growing up in Baltimore I had a chance to watch him at work. He made sure the Orioles knew how to play the game!