Originally posted by Chilepepper: Considering it has been reported that the birthdates used for a few of the gymnasts as late as last year in meet registrations would seem to say that they don't turn 16 this year, I'd say there is some evidence pointing to an eligibility problem. No such evidence exists for any of the U.S. gymnasts.
You are missing the point. How would the U.S. go about falsifying such claims if they did exist?
That's irrelevant...since such claims don't exist!
Originally posted by Trenchard: I shared your feeling that justice would be served, but it appears now that the IOC merely opened the investigation in order to silence critics such as the hacker who found government documents showing the girls were underage.
By blessing the Chinese government's lies once again, the IOC has further discredited itself.
What a shame. These Olympics have had moments of greatness, but they've been tarnished by the Chinese government and its apologists.
Are your accusations based on something more concrete or are you just waving your hands for attention again?
I'm curious, but if all of China got together and claimed that Shawn Johnson was underage, what evidence could the US provide?
Chinese apologist: Exhibit A.
Useful Idiots are still among us.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Trenchard,
Originally posted by Chilepepper: Considering it has been reported that the birthdates used for a few of the gymnasts as late as last year in meet registrations would seem to say that they don't turn 16 this year, I'd say there is some evidence pointing to an eligibility problem. No such evidence exists for any of the U.S. gymnasts.
You are missing the point. How would the U.S. go about falsifying such claims if they did exist?
That's irrelevant...since such claims don't exist!
Oh, come on CP! You're not thinking creatively enough like WEc.
I mean, Canada accused the Nazis of running concentration camps to exterminate people. If the Nazis then said that Canada was doing the same thing, I mean how would Canada go about falsifying such claims if they did exist?
WEc, You're making a fool of yourself.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Trenchard,
I always cringe a bit when people use Nazis/concentration camp examples to get their point across, regardless of their context, since what they're comparing it to is never remotely the same (in this case gymanstics) in terms of reprehensibility. I'm not trying to twist your words Trenchard, and frankly agree with your actual point, but killing millions of people and cheating so some kids can win at a gym contest is not the same.
Posts: 1230 | Location: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 19, 2008
Originally posted by indybob: From disgrace, to blanking Brazil for a gold, Hope Solo (no, she's not Han's sister) proved herself. 1-0. Congrats!
The "disgrace" part was a joke- she was absolutely right last year during the Women's World Cup and they acted like a bunch of 12 year olds in kicking her off the team, benching her and ostracizing her. That Scurry was played over her was idiotic and she spoke her mind. Any elite athlete would have been peeved. Her performance shows that she was right then. I am happy for her -
Posts: 2704 | Location: South Florida | Registered: Dec 30, 2002
I do recognize the pickle that China is in: Assume that the girls are really 16 years old; what proof would be sufficient to satisfy the American press? China has already supplied "official" documentation, such as passports, birth records, etc... The girls (and their families) swear that they are 16. What evidence would satisfy the Americans?
In reality, there is ample circumstantial evidence that the girls are not 16. The girls do not look 16; previous government web sites and documents say they are 14; Chinese gymnasts have previously lied about their ages; there is no "fourth estate" in China to contradict government assertions; the girls have every incentive to conspire with the government and a huge disincentive if they contradicted the government (what do you think would happen to them and their families if they stood up and said the were 14?)
Just because the evidence is circumstantial doesn't mean it is insufficient. Murder cases can be tried and won with only circumstantial evidence. What is the standard of proof that the IOC needs to disqualify the Chinese: beyond a reasonable doubt? preponderance of evidence? clear and convincing evidence?
I don't expect the IOC to disqualify the girls. I expect that a few years from now someone will finally admit that the girls weren't old enough, but no one is going to care at that point.
Originally posted by Trenchard: Oh, come on CP! You're not thinking creatively enough like WEc.
I mean, Canada accused the Nazis of running concentration camps to exterminate people. If the Nazis then said that Canada was doing the same thing, I mean how would Canada go about falsifying such claims if they did exist?
WEc, You're making a fool of yourself.
I feel sorry for your fallacious arguments and recourse to ad hominem to get your point across. The mere fact that you even brought up your "Nazi analogy" is enough to prove my point. The point is not how one can falsify claims made against oneself, but that there is some level of presumed innocence until proven guilty. You've just taken the liberty of assuming some casual observations as facts which means no one can convince you otherwise. In other words, if all of China were convinced that Shawn Johnson is underaged, is there anything the US can do to "rectify" the situation? Cause certainly it seems that a majority of you are already convinced that those Chinese gymnasts are underaged and quite frankly, there's not much the Chinese can do to clear their name if, in fact, they are innocent.
For the record, I also have my own suspicion that the Chinese gymnasts are underaged. But that is it, a suspicion. It would be wrong to postulate those suspicions as axioms in any arguments which is exactly what you have done.
____________________ An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools. - Hemingway
Originally posted by Rothko: I do recognize the pickle that China is in: Assume that the girls are really 16 years old; what proof would be sufficient to satisfy the American press? China has already supplied "official" documentation, such as passports, birth records, etc... The girls (and their families) swear that they are 16. What evidence would satisfy the Americans?
In reality, there is ample circumstantial evidence that the girls are not 16. The girls do not look 16; previous government web sites and documents say they are 14; Chinese gymnasts have previously lied about their ages; there is no "fourth estate" in China to contradict government assertions; the girls have every incentive to conspire with the government and a huge disincentive if they contradicted the government (what do you think would happen to them and their families if they stood up and said the were 14?)
Just because the evidence is circumstantial doesn't mean it is insufficient. Murder cases can be tried and won with only circumstantial evidence. What is the standard of proof that the IOC needs to disqualify the Chinese: beyond a reasonable doubt? preponderance of evidence? clear and convincing evidence?
I don't expect the IOC to disqualify the girls. I expect that a few years from now someone will finally admit that the girls weren't old enough, but no one is going to care at that point.
Very well said. My only contention are the circumstantial evidence.
1) The girls do not look 16; Alicia Sacramone suggested in an interview (regarding the age of the Chinese gymnasts) that she doesn't look 20, yet she is. Looks can be deceiving.
2) Gov. web sites and documents say they are 14. While I'm not in China but instead Canada, my Canadian driver's license until just last year when it had to be renewed had my name spelled wrong. If they have a database with those old records, is my name what it really is? Mistakes do happen, and it is not implausible.
3)Chinese gymnasts have previously lied about their ages. True, but do we really want to be painting with a broad stroke? That would give a lot of people a lot of bad reps.
4) There is no "fourth estate" in China to contradict government assertions. Ok.
5) The girls have every incentive to conspire with the government and a huge disincentive if they contradicted the government (what do you think would happen to them and their families if they stood up and said the were 14?) This is only relevant if you assumed the premise to be true so can't really be evidence to prove that the premise is true.
Consequently, I'm don't find such evidence compelling enough.
____________________ An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools. - Hemingway
Imagine that. A totalitarian communist regime cheating in the Olympics.
That's never happened before.....
-------------------- "One may dislike carrots, spinach, beetroot, or the skin on hot milk. But not wine. It is like hating the air that one breathes, since each is equally indispensable."
Marcel Ayme`
Posts: 6957 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001
I don't think anyone is blaming the Chinse girls... I think they are doing what they are told and, frankly, I think their lives are probably better than the lives of most little girls in China.
That said, there is a mountain of evidence that these girls are underage. Take He, the girl primarily in question because she has medals. There were several different documents saying she is 14 and 221 days today on various Chinese websites, and government datbases. People found some of them though internet cache. ALL of these websites have either been removed or "updated". The state-run newspaper said put her at that age when they did a stry on her last year.
And then, as an announcer put it, there is the most obvious point: we all live in this world. First of all, whether Alicia Sacramone thinks she looks 20 or not, I don't know -- to me she looks 20... or, at least, somewhere between 15 and 25. Post-pubescent for sure, and, frankly, she doesn't look like a high schooler. Girls who are 15 or 16 can look older than they are, or younger than they are... but there is a limit. Lewis Black has a routine where he says that at some point we all need to be able to look at a video and agree of "what the F--k reality is. And the reality is, you cannot watch a video of a cat getting run over by an SUV and say, 'well, he was trying to kill himself.'" -- In the same vein, you cannot look at the Chinese gymnasts at the center of the controversy and say that they would be going into thier Junior years of high school in the US. There is just no way.
"What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch?" -- W.C. Fields
Now I am wondering if my high school students actually belong in high school. Maybe some of them should still be in middle school, and are simply masquerading as high schoolers....
Romeo and Juliet are together in eternity....
Posts: 6183 | Location: Elk Grove, CA, USA | Registered: Dec 06, 2003
Originally posted by indybob: From disgrace, to blanking Brazil for a gold, Hope Solo (no, she's not Han's sister) proved herself. 1-0. Congrats!
The "disgrace" part was a joke- she was absolutely right last year during the Women's World Cup and they acted like a bunch of 12 year olds in kicking her off the team, benching her and ostracizing her. That Scurry was played over her was idiotic and she spoke her mind. Any elite athlete would have been peeved. Her performance shows that she was right then. I am happy for her -
Agreed. Brazil would have crushed Scurry.
-IB
"Wine only turns into alcohol if you let it sit."---Lindsay Bluth
Posts: 6256 | Location: Naptown | Registered: Nov 24, 2006
Originally posted by Dom'n'Vin'sDad: Now I am wondering if my high school students actually belong in high school. Maybe some of them should still be in middle school, and are simply masquerading as high schoolers....
Maybe you would know better, DvD, but seriously, are there any Juniors at your school who look at all the same age as the girls at the center of the controversy?
I mean, I understand that traditionally the US has sexualized high schoolers in its portrayal of them and made them look older -- 90210, The OC, Gossip Girl, etc. But still, there is a limit.
"What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch?" -- W.C. Fields
Originally posted by Dom'n'Vin'sDad: Now I am wondering if my high school students actually belong in high school. Maybe some of them should still be in middle school, and are simply masquerading as high schoolers....
Are you refering to their intelligence or their appearance?
Posts: 1469 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: Aug 05, 2007
Originally posted by Dom'n'Vin'sDad: Now I am wondering if my high school students actually belong in high school. Maybe some of them should still be in middle school, and are simply masquerading as high schoolers....
Are you refering to their intelligence or their appearance?
Yes....
Romeo and Juliet are together in eternity....
Posts: 6183 | Location: Elk Grove, CA, USA | Registered: Dec 06, 2003
Originally posted by winetarelli: Maybe you would know better, DvD, but seriously, are there any Juniors at your school who look at all the same age as the girls at the center of the controversy?
No....
Romeo and Juliet are together in eternity....
Posts: 6183 | Location: Elk Grove, CA, USA | Registered: Dec 06, 2003
Originally posted by Dunder: I always cringe a bit when people use Nazis/concentration camp examples to get their point across, regardless of their context, since what they're comparing it to is never remotely the same (in this case gymanstics) in terms of reprehensibility. I'm not trying to twist your words Trenchard, and frankly agree with your actual point, but killing millions of people and cheating so some kids can win at a gym contest is not the same.
Very fair point. I certainly wasn't comparing the substance of the two; merely the absolute idiocy of moral equivalency in this case.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Trenchard,
Originally posted by Rothko: I think the way to put this issue to rest is to give the Chinese girls a driving test. Since they are all 16, they'll know how to drive, right?
[Imagining the look of horror on their faces as they sit behind the steering wheel and don't know how to put the car into reverse]
Of course, since it is China, they don't have cars there... Only bikes... Or do they? Isn't that why gas prices have sky-rocketed?
I don't think they can even reach the bicycle pedals.
Posts: 1469 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: Aug 05, 2007
Originally posted by Rothko: I think the way to put this issue to rest is to give the Chinese girls a driving test. Since they are all 16, they'll know how to drive, right?
[Imagining the look of horror on their faces as they sit behind the steering wheel and don't know how to put the car into reverse]
Of course, since it is China, they don't have cars there... Only bikes... Or do they? Isn't that why gas prices have sky-rocketed?
I don't think they can even reach the bicycle pedals.
Some writer noted that the Chinese gymnasts would have been carded trying to get into Chuck E Cheese.
