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By jburman
Since they both came into the league, on game winning shots in the playoffs, defined as shot attempts with the intent to win or tie in the final 24 seconds of a game during which a player’s team is either tied or trails by three or fewer points, Lebron is 5/12 (41.7%) Wade is 1/3 (33%


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Posts: 12310 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
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Originally posted by jburman82:
In crunch time, defined as 5 minutes left and no team up by more than 5 points


I am not taking sides, but this is the source of dissonance in my opinion. That is a fine definition for important parts of the game certainly but if far broader than what GlennK and the others who are bagging on LeBron have in mind in my opinion - I think they are focusing on the last minute or even last possession of the game almost exclusively when Wade (Rose, Kobe and others) at least appear to demand the ball and want to take the shot make or miss when LeBron almost always looks to pass, avoid the ball and/or takes his lame backing away from the basket prayer of a shot. Now Jordan obviously passed to Paxson (or Kerr, whichever) in one of these key moments, it all worked and he was praised for passing because it all worked out - but I think that is what people have in mind and that stat simply does not reflect what looks like him shying away from takign the initiative at the very end of the game. I love LeBron so whatever, but that is what the issue is.


JC, this is all well and good but it skips over this stat.

quote:
Since they both came into the league, on game winning shots in the playoffs, defined as shot attempts with the intent to win or tie in the final 24 seconds of a game during which a player’s team is either tied or trails by three or fewer points, Lebron is 5/12 (41.7%) Wade is 1/3 (33%)


This is an incredibly small sample size to have any meaning with regards to percentage for Wade but Lebron has taken the shot 4 times as often as Dwayne.
 
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what would it be in the finals with the series on the line?


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Posts: 12310 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You are in denial JB. How do you explain what happened yesterday? Kobe was telling him to shoot it and he still passed it. Twice!! Hey if he hit an open man that had a great look at a shot, then it was the right play. Instead he tried to whip a pass into a crowd because he was afraid of missing the last shot. You think Kobe or Wade are afraid of missing shots? They shrug it off and go onto the next one. That is why they are different. You could see it in his body language after the game. Guy looked defeated.
 
Posts: 6553 | Location: OC, CA  | Registered: Aug 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by GlennK:
You are in denial JB. How do you explain what happened yesterday? Kobe was telling him to shoot it and he still passed it. Twice!! Hey if he hit an open man that had a great look at a shot, then it was the right play. Instead he tried to whip a pass into a crowd because he was afraid of missing the last shot. You think Kobe or Wade are afraid of missing shots? They shrug it off and go onto the next one. That is why they are different. You could see it in his body language after the game. Guy looked defeated.


It was an all-star game. The only people who care are the ones looking to rip Lebron. If James hits a game winning shot the next regular season game are people going to give him credit for being clutch? No. People are going to say it wasnt the finals. He's in a lose lose place. All the criticism about this is laughable.

You're probably right though. He looked defeated. The Heat have no chance. Might as well blow up the team. Roll Eyes
 
Posts: 4595 | Location: Jupiter, Fl | Registered: Mar 11, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by g-man:
what would it be in the finals with the series on the line?


Clutch is only in Finals?
 
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Rk Player Season 5 Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Ast'd %Ast'd
1 LeBron James 2005-06 CLE 4 2 5 .400 3 0 1 .000 1 .400 0 .000
2 LeBron James 2006-07 CLE 7 6 10 .600 4 1 3 .333 2 .650 1 .167
3 LeBron James 2007-08 CLE 3 0 4 .000 4 0 2 .000 2 .000 0
4 LeBron James 2008-09 CLE 2 2 6 .333 4 2 4 .500 2 .500 2 1.000
5 LeBron James 2009-10 CLE 2 2 2 1.000 0 2 2 1.000 0 1.500 0 .000
6 LeBron James 2010-11 MIA 3 0 3 .000 3 0 1 .000 1 .000 0



Rk Player Season 5 Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Ast'd %Ast'd
1 Dwyane Wade 2003-04 MIA 1 1 1 1.000 0 0 0 0 1.000 0 .000
2 Dwyane Wade 2004-05 MIA 2 1 2 .500 1 0 1 .000 1 .500 0 .000
3 Dwyane Wade 2005-06 MIA 4 2 4 .500 2 1 2 .500 1 .625 0 .000
4 Dwyane Wade 2006-07 MIA 1 0 1 .000 1 0 1 .000 1 .000 0
5 Dwyane Wade 2009-10 MIA 1 0 1 .000 1 0 1 .000 1 .000 0
6 Dwyane Wade 2010-11 MIA 4 2 4 .500 2 0 2 .000 2 .500 0 .000


When wade and lebron were on the same team during the 2010-2011 season

during the play offs
In all years, in the playoffs, in the 4th quarter or overtime, 0:24 or less left in quarter, scoring margin between -5 and 5 points, sorted by descending Field Goals.

Lebron made 0/3
Wade made 2/4

in all playoff games games
Wade 6/13 : 46%
James 12/30 : 40%


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Posts: 12310 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by jburman82:
quote:
Originally posted by g-man:
what would it be in the finals with the series on the line?


Clutch is only in Finals?


meant playoffs =)
oh and i can see from people with short term memory if they only looked at the 2010-2011
it would look like james just couldn't finish in that series.


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Posts: 12310 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by jburman82:
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Originally posted by GlennK:
You are in denial JB. How do you explain what happened yesterday? Kobe was telling him to shoot it and he still passed it. Twice!! Hey if he hit an open man that had a great look at a shot, then it was the right play. Instead he tried to whip a pass into a crowd because he was afraid of missing the last shot. You think Kobe or Wade are afraid of missing shots? They shrug it off and go onto the next one. That is why they are different. You could see it in his body language after the game. Guy looked defeated.


It was an all-star game. The only people who care are the ones looking to rip Lebron. If James hits a game winning shot the next regular season game are people going to give him credit for being clutch? No. People are going to say it wasnt the finals. He's in a lose lose place. All the criticism about this is laughable.

You're probably right though. He looked defeated. The Heat have no chance. Might as well blow up the team. Roll Eyes
I didn’t say anything about the Heat and I’ve already said I don’t hate on Lebron. I think the Heat are still the favorites because Wade and Lebron are such matchup nightmares. But....it speaks volumes to me if Kobe calls you out and screams to shoot the ball in front of all of your peers and you still shy away for it. You think Jordan would have passed the ball in the situation? You think Kobe would? Bird?
 
Posts: 6553 | Location: OC, CA  | Registered: Aug 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Glennk, what do you do with the stats that g-man pulled up? It shows Lebron takes the shot two and half times more often than Wade. Do you think he is afraid to take the shot?

Jordan did pass the ball when it was appropriate. Magic Johnson passed it James Worthy and Kareem. Was he not a winner and a closer? I want Lebron to make the smart basketball play. If thats passing it to a wide open Mike Miller then do it.
 
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Originally posted by jburman82:
Glennk, what do you do with the stats that g-man pulled up? It shows Lebron takes the shot two and half times more often than Wade. Do you think he is afraid to take the shot?

Jordan did pass the ball when it was appropriate. Magic Johnson passed it James Worthy and Kareem. Was he not a winner and a closer? I want Lebron to make the smart basketball play. If thats passing it to a wide open Mike Miller then do it.
But he didn't make the smart play. You are dodging the specific question at hand. Why would he pass the ball into a crowd instead of taking Kobe's challenge and try and tie the game with a 3. He was draining 3's all night and now that Kobe got in his kitchen he passes twice in the last 40 secs?
 
Posts: 6553 | Location: OC, CA  | Registered: Aug 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Why would he pass the ball? I dont know. Maybe he thought it was the smart basketball play. Maybe he realized he couldnt get off a good shot double covered. Im sure Kobe would have have jacked up a double covered fade away 28 footer. Maybe it goes in maybe it doesnt. Even if it did its not a good play.

You still havent responded to the fact that it has been shown James takes that shot plenty.
 
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Originally posted by jburman82:
You still havent responded to the fact that it has been shown James takes that shot plenty.
The stats g-man posted were not surprising. In Cleveland he was the only option and had to take the shot. The results are also not surprising showing Wade has delivered at a better rate. The stats don’t come close to telling the whole story though. You have to watch the games and it was clear to pretty much everyone last year that Lebron was MIA in the 4th quarter of the finals. He looked and acted scared. Ask any player in the NBA who they want holding the ball with 24 secs on the clock in a tie game. Lebron’s name will not be in the top 5, maybe top 10. Doesn’t mean he is not a great player during the other parts of the games were he is racking up all kind of “stats”. I think they can still win the title even with him running scared in the 4th because d-wade can pick up the slack, but man if Lebron had Wade’s closing instincts, they would be unstoppable.
 
Posts: 6553 | Location: OC, CA  | Registered: Aug 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Glenn, you cant have it both ways. Either he is scared to take the shot or he isnt. If he was scared he'd pass it every time, not have 30 shots on his record just in the playoffs. You are judging his entire career based on one finals performance. How would you like to be judged solely on the worst two week strecth of you life? All of your other accomplishments thrown out the window. It would be rather short sighted to do that.

I still dont get how Wade gets to be closer guy when over the last 5 years he has been the second worst shooter in the NBA on game winning shots, hitting something like 16%. Oh yeah, he also missed the final 3 pointer to tie the all star game. Wierd how that gets glossed over.
 
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Originally posted by jburman82:
......How would you like to be judged solely on the worst two week strecth of you life?.......
If it's the only time in my carrer that it really mattered, I'd deserve it. Cool


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Posts: 10227 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by jburman82:
You are judging his entire career based on one finals performance. How would you like to be judged solely on the worst two week strecth of you life?
He absolutely should be judged based on his finals performance. Isn’t the goal to win it all? Isn’t he paid millions to get his team a title? That is what separates great players, from all time great players. All time greats win championships and have moments of greatness in those championship games.

How would I like to be judged based on my worst 2 week stretch? Depends on what is at stake. If I’m working on a project and I have been leading my team and performing well all year and we get to the last 2 week home stretch and I just stop making key decisions and pass the buck to someone else, I should absolutely be judged harshly for that. This is when your team needs you the most!
 
Posts: 6553 | Location: OC, CA  | Registered: Aug 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This is just totally ridiculous. You guys are ripping him for not taking the shot. I provide with you stats that show he takes the game winning shot 4 times more often than Wade in the playoffs.

You say it only counts in the finals and then rip him for what happens in a damn exhibition game convienently leaving out James drilling three's in the closing seconds of the Boston and Chicago series. Those dont matter because it wasnt in the finals though right? Then the all star game doesnt matter either. You cant have it both ways.

What you are doing in confirmation bias. Only things that confirm your opinion count.

This is reminding me why I wasnt going to get into Lebron debates this year.
 
Posts: 4595 | Location: Jupiter, Fl | Registered: Mar 11, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by jburman82:
This is just totally ridiculous. You guys are ripping him for not taking the shot.

No, not really. I'm ripping him for dissapearing in the finals, and in other playoff games.

I provide with you stats that show he takes the game winning shot 4 times more often than Wade in the playoffs.

This isn't about wade. It's about James.

You say it only counts in the finals and then rip him for what happens in a damn exhibition game convienently leaving out James drilling three's in the closing seconds of the Boston and Chicago series.

No. Not really. I'm ripping him for a pattern of going turtle when it matters. The fact that he deferred in an exhibition game is interesting, but my point is based on many games and not just this one.

Those dont matter because it wasnt in the finals though right?

It doesn't matter as much as it does in the finals. He has a pattern of dissapearing when his team needs it most, especially in the finals or in the conference finals.

Then the all star game doesnt matter either. You cant have it both ways.

You are correct, it is an exhibition game. He had the shot and didn't take it though. You can't really be saying James is about the smart play. His entire career and existance has proven it's all about himself.

What you are doing in confirmation bias. Only things that confirm your opinion count.

I never said he wasn't talented. I've said he's overrated and doesn't have the heart of a champion. He is more like a petulant child that doesn't understand that it really isn't all about him.

This is reminding me why I wasnt going to get into Lebron debates this year.

It's difficult to win debates when you are wrong. Not impossible, but difficult nonetheless.


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Posts: 10227 | Location: The Left Coast | Registered: Dec 01, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There is only one player in the NBA that I would truly consider clutch, Derek Fisher.


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Originally posted by gigabit:
There is only one player in the NBA that I would truly consider clutch, Derek Fisher.


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Posts: 12310 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by jburman82:
G-man, 20/8 it is.



am i uhh gonna get any lee way on the points? ;-)


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Posts: 12310 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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For 46 minutes Lebron is one of the most statistically and physically dominant players on the court. But in those last two minutes, it seems like he hasn't mastered closing out games. Take last season, I can recall a game winning shot situation for the Heat. So who took the last shot? Eddie House. Do you think Kobe would let Eddie House take the last shot? Hell no, if House got the ball Kobe would steal the ball from him, punch him in the face, and toss up his own shot. Lebron doesn't have that killer instinct that is so important for a superstar player to have. It's what separates Russell from Chamberlain, Jordan from Drexler, and Olajuwon and Ewing. Lebron has been a statistics beast, he fills up the box score like nobody else, but has not shown the intangibles to put a team on his back and carry them to a championship. Moreover, it doesn't help that he has orchestrated some of the biggest disappearing acts that we have seen in modern sports from a star athlete in a close and late situation.

He's a contending boxer who, when hit with one vicious shot, can go down. When it comes to mental-toughness he has a glass jaw. He does not handle adversity well. And he never has. And while he may be the best player on his team (debatable), he does not have the leadership capabilities or the confidence to be a leader. Is he highly scrutinized? Yes. And he should be as the self-anointed "King." I don't know many people who, with a straight face, can say that they would want the ball in his hands at the end of a playoff game down 2.

Btw – this is awesome:Lebron needs his food cut for him
 
Posts: 102 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: Dec 20, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Kobe is such a clutch player, and is so fearless.

A good game to watch today.
 
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It was a fun game. I was only able to catch the beginning of the game, but Kobe was showing Wade how it’s done in the low post. I think the Lakers can make some noise in the playoffs as currently constructed, but I don’t think they have the depth to make it all the way. But hey, you can’t make it to the finals every year. Just every other year if you’re the Lakers. Cool
 
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Interesting article on ESPN yesterday here. Its especially appropriate in light of what happened in LA last night.
 
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