I would like to know, where do you serious Yankee fans place Andy Pettitte all-time in the great history of NY Yankee pitchers?

Top 20

Tough question. Outside of 1997, when he was just stupid good, he has never been super spectacular. That said, he has generally been pretty darn good day in and day out, year in and year out. In a lot of ways, he was the cornerstone of the staff for many, many years without being the #1 guy. The big guns would stumble, and the Yanks would lose a few, the he would step in and right the ship.

He's thrown a lot of quality games for them, but he remains hard to categorize when you start talking "greatest" lists.

Let me see ... There are probably 10 pitchers that I have not watched and were before my time:

1) Whitey Ford
2) Red Ruffing
3) Lefty Gomez
4) Allie Reynolds
5) Eddie Lopat
6) Mel Stottlemeyer

Then there are 10 others that I've seen:
1) Mariano Rivera
2) Ron Guidry
3) Dave Righetti
4) Goose Gossage
5) Jim Catfish Hunter
6) Andy Pettite
7) El Duque
8) David Wells/Jimmy Key/David Cone
9) Tommy John
10) Jim Abbott

I am not a serious Yankee fan. Not a Yankee fan at all.
But, I saw Whitey Ford pitch and Mel Stottlemyer. Both were terrific pitchers.
You didn't mention Waite Hoyt, who was a great Yankee pitcher who is in the Hall of Fame. Played for the Yankees in the 1920's or so. Had 10 seasons with the Yankees and was in double digits in wins each year. Lifetime ERA was under 3.60.
And, if you want to go back, the Yankees had a heck of a ball player years ago who was a terrific pitcher. Started 148 games in his career, although nearly all of his starts were NOT with the Yankees, and he had a 2.28 ERA. Finished his career with a 94-46 record on the mound. The guy could hit a little also. Name was Ruth. Babe Ruth, that is.
It is tough to compare from one generation to another. Here are Mr. Hoyt's stats:
http://www.baseball-almanac.co...layer.php?p=hoytwa01

Not a Yankees fan at all so maybe true fans don't consider them "real" Yankees but what about Clemens and Randy Johnson, or even Mussina for that matter.

Quite a few notches behind HOF’er Don Sutton.


(and just to clarify, I'm not a Yank fan.)

quote:

Originally posted by Icewino:
Not a Yankees fan at all so maybe true fans don't consider them "real" Yankees but what about Clemens and Randy Johnson, or even Mussina for that matter.

While Randy Johnson is a great pitcher all-time, his time with the Yankees is generally considered a failure.

I'll chime in as a city resident. I would think this question is properly framed as focusing on what each pitcher did with the Yankees.

In that regard, this link will be helpful. Pettite is towards the tops in most of the counting stats (wins, IP, Ks) but not really close in any of the rate stats (ERA, ERA+, WHIP, etc.).

Neil

quote:

Originally posted by irwin:
I am not a serious Yankee fan. Not a Yankee fan at all.
But, I saw Whitey Ford pitch and Mel Stottlemyer. Both were terrific pitchers.
You didn't mention Waite Hoyt, who was a great Yankee pitcher who is in the Hall of Fame. Played for the Yankees in the 1920's or so. Had 10 seasons with the Yankees and was in double digits in wins each year. Lifetime ERA was under 3.60.
And, if you want to go back, the Yankees had a heck of a ball player years ago who was a terrific pitcher. Started 148 games in his career, although nearly all of his starts were NOT with the Yankees, and he had a 2.28 ERA. Finished his career with a 94-46 record on the mound. The guy could hit a little also. Name was Ruth. Babe Ruth, that is.
It is tough to compare from one generation to another. Here are Mr. Hoyt's stats:
http://www.baseball-almanac.co...layer.php?p=hoytwa01

Irwin, it's funny that I've never heard of Waite Hoyt until I saw the list of winningest pitchers for the Yankees. And how can I forget the Babe ... I was thinking about him, but I didn't have the time to confirm if he actually pitched for the Yankees. It looks like he did pitch a few games, but his pitchiing prowess was used during his stint with the Red Sux.

quote:

Originally posted by Icewino:
Not a Yankees fan at all so maybe true fans don't consider them "real" Yankees but what about Clemens and Randy Johnson, or even Mussina for that matter.

Although Clemens and Mussina won more games than John and Abbott, I remember the latter two growing up, and both made a more impression on me than Clemens and Mussina. Johnson just flat out disappointed, but it's definitely not a reflection of his career.

Yet one more win for Andy in the postseason.

great pitcher but underrated... doesn't care about headlines. 10 yrs from now we'll be re-evaluating his contributions to winning Yankee pennants & titles.

Q to all: Hall of Fame for Andy?

HOF is a decided long shot for Pettite. He's had an excellent career but he's in the David Cone zone. Pettite needs to get in on longevity because he hasn't has many years in which he's considered one of the top pitchers in his league (or even the ace of his staff). However, he's a long way from reaching longevity milestone. Three more seasons like this one and 275 career wins might get him there. The post-season stuff helps but it's not determinative.

Neil

At this point, no. If he puts together two more great years, maybe with another WS title (after this curremt one), then maybe. Unfortunately, longevity counts for almost as much as talent. There are people in the Hall who don't belong there (Sutton) and others not in the Hall who do belong there (Blyleven, Morris, Dawson).

See this article from the creator of baseball-reference. He argues that Pettite falls short of the Hall and believes he'll need 300 wins to get there.

BTW, comments on the article are very entertaining.

Follow-up question...Mussina in the Hall?

quote:

Originally posted by Neil K.:
Follow-up question...Mussina in the Hall?

TominNYC should be chiming in soon.

Doesn't make the top 5 sp statistically who are...
Ford
Ruffing
Guidry
Gomez
Shawkey
is in the next group of 5 -10 with
Hoyt and Pennock [ both HOF who don't belong ]
Stottlemyre
Reynolds
Mussina

Pettite like many eg Cone, Hershiser...very good but just not HOF.

Follow-up question...Mussina in the Hall?[/QUOTE]

Mussina belongs but just barely

Many ex Yanks/ part time Yanks belong who are not in, many don't and are in

Should be in...
Rivera
Clemens
R. Johnson
K. Brown...barely and arguable either way

Bad choices in the HOF [Old Timers Committee in the 40's and 50's screwed up the HOF for 20 years]
J. Hunter
W. Hoyt
H. Pennock

E. Lopat, C. Mays, T. John, M. Stottlemyre, and
R Guidry, .. no and shouldn't

W. Ford, R. Ruffing. L. Gomez are deserving

Personally, I think not for Mussina - consistently good for a long time - shrank from the spotlight, never came up in the clutch (except for that one regular season duel against Pedro Labor Day 2001), was never considered the dominant pitcher in the league.

quote:

Originally posted by Jcocktosten:
Personally, I think not for Mussina - consistently good for a long time - shrank from the spotlight, never came up in the clutch (except for that one regular season duel against Pedro Labor Day 2001), was never considered the dominant pitcher in the league.

Dude, you are nuts.

Mussina’s first postseason appearance came in 1996, his 6th season, and was a disappointing performance in two starts, one each in the division and championship series. Combined, he was 0-1, with a 5.27 ERA. He didn’t have to wait long for a chance to make up for that sub par performance, as his team made the post again the following year. Moose’s dominance in the 1997 postseason cannot be overstated. He began the 1997 postseason with two ALDS starts against the M’s, going 7 innings in each start, while allowing a total of 3 runs and posting 16 k’s. He was 2-0. In the ALCS, he stepped into unhittable territory. In his two starts, he went 15 innings, allowing only 4 hits, 1 earned run, while punching out 25 of the very dangerous Cleveland lineup. His teammates failed to score a single run for him in either game, eventually losing both in extra innings. His next foray into the post season came with the Yanks in 2001. His first start in the post as a Yankee came in game three of the ALDS, with the Yanks already in an 0-2 hole and facing elimination. Moose rescued his new team by throwing 7 shutout innings and winning a 1-0 nail biter. Moose had a disappointing game 1 start in the ALCS, lasting only 5 2/3 innings, while giving up 4 ER in the loss. He pitched much better in his next start, going 6 2/3 IP, with 10 K’s, but allowed 3 ER’s and was once again out-dueled by Tim Wakefield, who was making his own case for an ALCS MVP award. He had a final chance to contribute in the ’01 ALCS, and he didn’t disappoint. The now famous game 7 match-up between Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez quickly fell apart for the yanks, as the Sox knocked Clemens around for 4 runs before placing runners on 1st and 3rd with nobody out in the top of the 4th inning. With the Yanks already down by 4 runs, and facing a red hot Pedro Martinez, Moose had to stem the bleeding. He made quick work of Jason Varitek, via strike out, then followed it up by getting Johnny Damon to ground into an inning ending double play. It is safe to say that Moose’s performance once again saved the entire Yankee season. The late inning heroics may never have been enough had he not stopped the Sox from tacking on what appeared to be an easy run in that situation. Moose’s clutch performance helped his team advance to the World Series, where he dominated in his only start, out-dueling fireballer Josh Becket, in route to a 6 to 1 yankee win. Moose went 7 innings, allowed a single run, while striking out 9. His teammates failed to carry their weight and he never got another start in the series. In the 2004 ALDS, Moose battled with Johann Santana, who shut the yanks out, which wasted a very good start by Mussina, who went 7 innings, while allowing 2 ER with 7 K’s. He went on to start game 1 of the rematch in the ALCS with Boston, facing off against Curt Schilling. Moose’s final numbers for that game don’t tell the story at all. Moose dominated. He pitched 7 perfect innings to start the game, staking his team to an 8-0 lead, before tiring (or having a let-down, following the yanks offensive explosion in the bottom of the 7th) with 2 outs and one on in the 8th. He gave up 3 runs before leaving the game in the hands of Tanyon Sturtze, who promptly gave up a HR, giving Moose 4 ER on the game, which was hardly indicative of his overall dominance. His next start was game 5 against Pedro Martinez and he out-dueled the greatest pitcher of his generation through 6 innings, allowing 2 runs with 7 k’s. He would have won the series clinching game if not for the Red Sox 9th inning comeback.

Overall Postseason statistics:
9 Lg Div Series GS-10 ERA-3.60 W-4 L-4 0 IP-65 H-61 ER-26 BB-15 K-56
5 Lg Champ Series GS-8 ERA-3.34 W-2 L-3 0 IP-56.2 H-42 ER-21 BB-13 K-66
2 World Series GS-3 ERA-3.00 W-1 L-1 0 IP-18 H-18 ER-6 BB-5 K-23
16 Postseason Ser GS-21 ERA-3.42 W-7 L-8 0 IP-139.2 H-121 ER-53 BB-33 K-145

JAWS analysis by BP’s Jay Jaffe:
Mike Mussina:
“At 39 and now reduced to employing a fastball that wouldn't get ticketed in a school zone, it's a safe bet that the Moose isn't going to become a member of the 300 win club. Which isn't to say that he doesn't have Hall-worthy numbers, at least from a JAWS standpoint. As with Smoltz but to a lesser extent on both scales, Mussina's ahead on career and short on peak numbers, with PRAR and PRAA numbers (284 and 1221, respectively) that also surpass the benchmarks. What Mussina doesn't have going for him, particularly relative to Smoltz, is the hardware which will augment his much more traditional case: no World Series ring, no Cy Young, no *20-win season (he's had 18 or 19 five times) and "only" five All-Star appearances. His post-season record is "just" 7-8, albeit with a 3.42 ERA and 145 strikeouts in 139 2/3 innings; the fact that his teams have scored just 3.2 runs per game for him is a big reason, and certainly hasn't helped his quest for a ring.

In Mussina's favor is a long stretch in which he could lay claim to being one of the league's best pitchers; he finished in the top five of the Cy voting six times from 1992 to 2001, with two sixth-place finishes as well, and has eight top five finishes in ERA, and eight top 10 finishes in strikeouts. While not the equal of Clemens, Johnson, or Martinez, he was one of the league's top-shelf hurlers for a good long time. He's probably facing a tooth-and-nail fight, but it ought to turn out in his favor.”
*latest Mussina analysis was made prior to his 20 win 2008 season.

Ok he is the greatest pitcher ever I give up - too bad the Yankees won before and after him and did not win squat when he was on the team and you could always rattle off numerous pitchers who were more dominant and scary than him. He was a very good pitcher who lasted a long time - nothing more. I guess I need to give up as the numbers geeks run everything anyway -I don't know any Yankees fans that have any special affection for Mussina -

You didn't disappoint Tom!

The biggest problem with Yanks and Hall of Fame pitchers in the last 30 years is that these starting pitchers have performed better and in most cases much better elsewhere.
Cases in point
R. Johnson- SEA, ARZ
R. Clemens- but also BOS
M. Mussina- BAL
J. Hunter- OAK
K. Brown- TXS,LAD
D. Gooden- NYM
D. Cone- NYM
T. John- LAD

Remains to be seen w CC Sabathia. This may be true for AJ Burnett as well, though the latter is not potential HOF material.

All this is part of the Boss' legacy. Older may be wiser but is not better, and is always more expensive.

And an "atta boy" to you too, Dr. T!!!