Wine Spectator Online Wine Spectator Forums Travel and Entertainment Travel Advice: France, Italy, both?
Wine Spectator Forums Travel and Entertainment Travel Advice: France, Italy, both?Page 1 2
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So I have a very good dilemma at hand. My girlfriend recently took a new job (accepted the position this morning!) which requires two weeks of training in Germany in the end of November. As my family has a house in Germany, I've decided to fly out a week early with her (before her training) and spend some time with my family and visiting a few vineyards in the area.
I also decided to stay an extra 10-12 days and travel to either France or Italy by train and spend a few days taking in the food and wine scene. I've been to Europe many times, but not in the last 5 years since I've become an oenophile. This is my dilemma: Do I try to get through France and then to Italy, spending 5-6 days in each...or do I spend the whole time immersing myself in one or the other. I know it would be very easy to spend the whole 10-12 days in JUST Tuscany or JUST Burgundy, but is this amount of time necessary to make it worth it? I don't want to have to rush around! I realize the choice of location is very dependent on personal preference so I'm looking for advice specifically on whether it is a waste to only spend two days in Bordeaux, two days in Burgundy, two near the Rhone, etc? Once I decide my destination(s), I will be back here for serious recommendations on accommodations and dining! Quickly, bring me a beaker of wine, so that I may wet my mind and say something clever. - Aristophanes foodandwineblog.com |
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Geographically speaking, Bordeaux is way out of the way, especially from Germany. If wine is the goal, why not start along the German border, go to Reims for some champagne, then start down through Burgundy, which flows right into the Rhone river valley. From there it is a quick and easy hop over the Piedmonte region of Italy. I don't think that it is a waste of time to spend only a couple of days in each area. You should plan ahead though, and reserve your visits in advance. Hopefully you have some knowledge of French or Italian?
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Pick one or the other. If you are in western Germany, you could easily do Alsace, Burgundy, northern Rhone, southern Rhone & Porvence. The closest quality wine region in Italy from there is Piedmont, which is still a full days's drive because of the Alps. Ignore Bordeaux, too far away.
If you are close to Switzerland you could cut through there and go to Piedmont, Tuscany, Umbria and end up in Rome, or alternatively swing back up through the Veneto and end up in Venice! Waiting for kids to grow up so I can get back to attending offlines |
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Excellent advice. Go to Piedmont and Tuscany. The Rhone and Provence would be my next choice. |
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I'd go to Spain.
Just one more sip. |
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I have done both France and Italy. I recomend Italy and the Florence area. Much more to see and do. If you get bored of drinking wine!
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Forget Bordeaux -- way out of the way.
TRAIN is a major word here. MAJOR MAJOR word. The wineries in France are often located in or near cities. Whereas in Italy, you are talking about serious countryside in many instances. For you, I would say do Provence, the Rhone, Burgundy, and Alsace. Now, if you are willing to re-think and maybe rent a car... or you are willing to pay a lot of money for taxicabs, I prefer Northern Italy to France. Not really from a wine perspective, just from a holiday perspective -- as nice as Avignon and tain l'Hermitage and Beaune and Colmar are... come on... they aren't Florence and Siena and Venice and Lake Como. I mean... come on.  The one caveat to all of this I would say is... if neither you nor your girlfriend has ever been to Florence there may be benefit to finding a way to go with her. In addition to being my favorite city in the world, I believe it to be the most beautiful and romantic city in the world. "What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch?" -- W.C. Fields |
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If it's a "wine trip", I would say go with your wine interest and explore. If you are a cab/merlot fan FLY to Bordeaux. If you like whites DRIVE to Alsace/Champagne/Moselle. If you are the pinot type ...
But if you are the wine/food/art/history, kind of guy, and have never been there, Tuscany is a dream I would get back to anytime. |
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I've narrowed my choices (after reading and contemplating these responses quite exhaustively):
Burgundy vs. Tuscany I will still be going to some places in Germany the first week there with my family/girlfriend. To address a few issues: 1) the point of the trip is wine 2) I will be traveling alone (my girlfriend has job training after the first week we're there) 3) I speak German and Spanish, but no Italian/French 4) I may rent a car to make this easier. I'll have to say that for wines, Burgundy is in the lead, but I love Brunello's and am a big "wine/food/art/history" kind of guy as well. In any event, I'll decide by this weekend so I can make travel arrangements and set up some visits. Thanks everyone! Quickly, bring me a beaker of wine, so that I may wet my mind and say something clever. - Aristophanes foodandwineblog.com |
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Oh what a fantastic trip you're planning! Totally jealous. I know this trip is about wine and all, but when you're in Germany, you gotta drink the beer. The Germans are notorious for their love affair with beer. This videois hilarious, and I couldn't resist.
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Some thoughts... You can get by in Italy if you are fluent in Spanish. The langauges are similar enough that you can actually converse and more or less know what the other peson is saying. Tuscany is much more beautiful in every way than Burgundy. The countryside is more beautiful, the towns are more beautiful, the art... well... a large portion of the Italian Renessaince art is located in Tuscany. There is more divirsity of wine in Tuscany. Almost all of the good Tuscan estates are available in the U.S., however, in Burgundy, you can happen upon wonderful tiny production houses that never leave France (or even Burgundy). In either locale, I would rent a car, but it is vital for Tuscany. [edit] Also, I prefer the food in Tuscany "What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch?" -- W.C. Fields |
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Just one more sip. |
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And the decision has been made: Tuscany!
I'm going to focus on Montalcino...anyone want to suggest a few places to eat, visits, etc (maybe futronic?). It came down to two things: 1) I'm a big fan of Brunello di Montalcino right now and Tuscan wines in general. 2) I speak NO French..whereas I know some phrases in Italian and have a much easier time pronouncing the words. I'll spend the next 6 months working on French and my spring trip will hopefully be to either Burgundy or Bordeaux. So experts, I call on you for travel advice in Tuscany! (Thanks everyone who helped me get this far! Oh, and due to suggestions, I'll be renting a car!) One final thing: where in Tuscany would be the best place to propose to someone? I've been thinking about this for quite some time and since my girlfriends job training has afforded her the time to spend 5 days with me in Tuscany with me, I can't think of a better place! Quickly, bring me a beaker of wine, so that I may wet my mind and say something clever. - Aristophanes foodandwineblog.com |
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The Piazza di Michelangelo. Great view overloking Florence. Go there at dusk on a weeknight (avoiding the crowds). Stay at the Villa La Massa, it is a wonderful first class hotel. Dining on the patio above the Arno is sure to put your girlfriend "in the mood". "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Gerald Ford |
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First of all, Florence. For the love of God, Florence. Maybe the Palazzo Vecchio? You can get there, scope out some areas, and then decide. Never stayed in Villa La Massa that VT2IT reccomnded but just looked it up -- it is outside of Florence and looks lovely. Personally, though, I would suggest staying in Florence, itself. I really like the Hotel Monna Lisa on Borgo Pinti. It isn't a fancy hotel, but really really Florintine and, I think, romantic. Also on Borgo Pinti is La Giostra, a restaurant owned by a Hapsburg Prince wich always has Christmas-like lights on and gives a very personal touch. Again, it is not romantic in the *** Michelin sense, but rather in the true romantic sense. (And the food is awesome.) Here is its website. (On the lower right hand corner you can click on a link to see what the restaurant looks like inside.) One other really romantic option (although I still vote strongly for Florence) would be the Piazza del Duomo in Siena. I cannot give strong restaurant or lodging advice there, though. If you decide to check out any small hill towns in Tuscany, my favorite is San Gimignano. When in Montalcino, I would check out Ciacci Piccolomini and Siro Pacenti... I won't tell you congratulations yet, but I hope to be saying so when you return! "What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch?" -- W.C. Fields |
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One of my favorite parts of being in Tuscany (and Spain for that matter) was getting lost on the backroads and sideroads and in the small villages.
So don't fret about wrong turns, missed exits, etc. Enjoy the journey, stop in some local shops and eat in some "hole in the wall" joints. I think they'll add a lot of flavor to the trip. Have a great trip! |
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Awesome advice everyone, I truly appreciate it.
winetarelli: Done and done. We're going to arrive in Florence, so I'll try to propose on the first night so we can celebrate the rest of the trip! IA: I look forward to getting lost in small villages...but I'm a cheater: I have a Garmin Handheld GPS for hiking that I'm taking with me  One final question: What's the best way to get from Frankfurt to Florence? Plane is around $200 a ticket to Rome, twice that to Florence, rail is more expensive and slower...is driving feasible? Thanks again everyone! I'll hopefully have some great stories, tasting notes, and pictures when I return! Quickly, bring me a beaker of wine, so that I may wet my mind and say something clever. - Aristophanes foodandwineblog.com |
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Wait... does that mean you are actually taking my advice? On hotel? Restaurant? Neither? Both? Anyway, Florence is the most romantic city in the world, imo, so... As far as getting there... Don't fly into Rome. I think the hassle just would not be worth it. And I cannot overstress how bad the driviers are when you get south of Umbria. It really is your call. You can make the drive in 1 day from Frankfurt to Florence, but it would be a somewhat serious trek. It is about 600 miles driving distance from Frankfurt to Florence. Of course, the drive is amazing. Also, if you rent a decent car you can make the trip in far less time than you would a 600 mile trip in the U.S. The posted speed limit for most of your trip would be 140km/h but as a matter of practice, the speed of traffic would be around 160km/h (about 95mph) (and perhpas faster in parts of Germany) so you would be looking at abut 6 1/2 hours of diving assuming you feel comfortable driving that speed and good conditions. One note about driving: be PATIENT. When I said 6 1/2 hours driving (assuming an average of about 95mph, which is a reasonable assumption if you are comfortable with that) that was to Florence. In fact, that may have been the theoretically possible number to your hotel. But you aren't going to get to your hotel at first. You are going to get lost. And your girlfriend will be the navigator and it will be all you can do to keep from yelling at her... but don't. Just know... everyone's girlfriend gets them lost (or everyone's boyfriend gets the girl lost, depending upon how you look at it). Just assume it will take you an hour to find your hotel once you get to the city. That way, if it only takes half an hour, you won't feel bad at all!  Good luck and let me (and everyone) know if I (we) can be of anymore help! This message has been edited. Last edited by: winetarelli, "What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch?" -- W.C. Fields |
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I think Lufthansa flies from Frankfurt to Florence - I would just do that. We trained from Rome to Florence the first time we went - We drove (from Florence to Montalcino to Orvieto to Rome) the last time we were there.
One question, is your Garmin loaded with the Europe maps? If not, it will be of no use. We have the Garmin Nuvi and checked in the Garmin store before our Spain trip and it would have cost $120 bucks or so to get the Western Europe package. We passed. We had a lot of fun totally lost trying to find Capcanes in Monsant so it all worked out anyway. |
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Yes, I'd like to Spain too! Spain is a spectacular and diverse country. My colleagues and I have made several times trip abroad and we unanimous deem that Spain is the most country we have been to. We not only enjoy its bullfights, flamenco dancers and crowded beaches, but also admire its social culture. Spanish people are very open-hearted and communicative. You won't have any problems to get to know someone, especially in the big cities like Madrid or Barcelona. If you want to go to Spain be on a tour, the sites costa brava holidays and ibiza beach may help you a lot. |
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Nobody's going to click on your links, spammer.
 Just one more sip. |
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You are tempting me. ____________________ An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools. - Hemingway |
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