Hello all!

My wife and I are trying to plan a trip to Europe next year. I know it is early, but we are having some disagreement about where to go. I also have enough Frequent Flyer Miles to book the tickets on points. As a result, I need to get this organized sooner rather than later.

I am lobbying pretty hard for France, but my wife wants to go to Italy. In my defense, I have only been outside of the country once - to visit my wife (girlfriend at the time) while she was studying abroad in Florence. We traveled to Rome, Venice, and Padua while we were there. It was a blast, but if I am going back to Europe, I would like to go to a different country. I should also point out that my wife has been almost everywhere, including France. In her defense, she has said that she would love to go to France, but she is pretty concerned that it is going to turn into a wine trip.

I understand her concerns, but there is so much that I would like to do and see in France that wine would take a back seat - yes I can say that with a straight face. That being said, I do want to visit Chateauneuf du Pape if we go, and spend some time in Provence. My goal would be to visit a few domaines, but nothing extensive.

Ideally, I would like to spend some time in Paris and travel to other areas in the country. My wife has a good friend that moved to Paris after college and she suggested visiting Beaune and Dijon. I had some reservations about this, because I was under the impression that Burgundy was pretty expensive. I think she made the suggestion because there were things to do and see other than wine stuff that my wife would enjoy.

My main questions are:

Is Dijon/Beaune a good suggestion and fair way to compromise? What other things are there to do around Chateauneuf/Avignon so my wife wouldn't feel like it was all about wine? What other cities in Provence would be must-see stops for reasons other than wine? My wife was an Art History major and I essentially minored in the subject. I know there are some great museums in Nice, but that seems too far away. Any advice for these types of activities? Any other areas of the country that I should consider instead? Any guide books you would recommend?

Also, how hard would it be to travel from France to Italy in order to hit both countries? Will it be really expensive to make the trip? Should I give up and go back to Italy?

Sorry for all the questions, but I would greatly appreciate any advice. I checked some other threads and picked up some ideas. I know we have some folks that have spent a lot of time in both countries, so I thought it would be a good idea to take advantage of the knowledge. Thanks in advance.

This year we are taking the Viking River Cruise up the Rhone. Hits all the places that you listed.

we atrt in Paris for a few days, and then on to Zurich, Milan, Turin, Nice, and finally on to Avignon and up the river to Beaune.

TGV back to Paris for a day or so.

All air is Delta, 1st class and points.

www.vikingrivercruises.com

Check it out

Keeno:
Travel is very personal. Some people prefer the organized trip, such as Flwino is about to embark upon, and others like to fend for themselves.

You say your wife is into art? Well, the South of France has some great art museums. Here is a recent post of mine on our trip to Provence last year:
http://forums.winespectator.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9581...=967105444#967105444

It contains references to numerous art museums. You can get a TGV train from Paris to Nice. I guess it's about 3.5 hrs. If you like countryside, you're better off in the south than in Paris, obviously.

Thank you both for the responses so far. I like the idea of the cruise because it is hitting all the stops. I would like to have a little more customization. The price seems very fair.

Irwin: Did you take a train from Avignon to Nice? Without the stops, how far of a ride is it? My wife is worried about language barriers in that part of the country. I saw your post about communication, but do most people speak English in case we get in a jam? How expensive is this part of the country (hotels, restaurants, etc.) Any recs on where to stay? Sorry to blast you with all these questions, but appreciate your help.

Keeno: I have heard good things about the Viking river cruises. Plus there are barge tours.
Go to http://www.fcwl.com/ for the luxury end of things. I just looked up the site and if you click on "cruises" and then "specials" you'll see some deals that are outstanding. If you want to barge languidly along, with 1st class food and wine, with superior excursions, at an all inclusive price, these deals are fantastic. But these barges go only 1-2 miles per hour, so you don't go anywhere. You don't see many things like you do on a River Cruise. You get an indepth view of one place.
In all of France, I have found plenty of people who speak English. It certainly helps to at least greet the person "Bonjour, Monsieur" or "Bonjour Madame" before you launch into English, but a very large percentage of people speak English well. In a real small town, like Orange, or some place off the beaten track, you'll need to be creative.
There are big advantages to the organized cruise. They will know what is open/closed on a particular day; every town has a market day, which is a lot of fun, and the cruise people will know what day that is and will get you there. The cruise may well have bikes for you to use to go on an independent outing if you wish. You could do a lot worse than an organized trip, and it does take the worry and stress out of things.
The maddening thing about the trains is that the French are constantly going on strike. When they do, you could be in serious trouble.
I would estimate that a train from Avignon to Nice without stops is an hour or less. Restaurants and hotels are expensive everywhere in France, but a good guide book will help you. One nice thing about restaurants is that tax and tip is ALWAYS included. So, if you order a 3 course meal (appetizer, main course, dessert) for 30 Euros, it really is 30 Euros. (About $45). Here, the menu says $30, and you pay that, plus tax and tip, so it's really $37. I would urge you to stay away from ethnic restaurants like Indian, Greek, Chinese, etc.....Just stick with French food.
One quirk is that they seem to prefer to take your dinner order first, and then take your wine order, not the other way around, and they will think you are crude if you do it otherwise.
I'd also suggest, if you are in the S. of France, don't hesitate to try some Rose, and some White Chateauneuf du Pape, or any local wine.
If you are on your own, the place we stayed in Avignon was decent....We stayed in the Mercure Pont D'Avignon, which is in a great location. The rooms are ok, the service is ok. The bar is pathetic. Breakfast was nice, but don't eat dinner there.
A great restaurant there is La Fourchette (The Fork). Quaint, nice people, fine menu.
In Nice, I would not recommend where we stayed--not wonderfully located. If I went back I'd spring for the Hotel Negresco.

Irwin - Your are the man. Thanks for all your help. Nice is closer than I thought, so that should be a possibility.

Keeno:
send me your email to mine and I will send one other thing to you. (but give me a day or so)
baltlaw
at
yahoo.com

quote:

Originally posted by Keeno:


I am lobbying pretty hard for France, but my wife wants to go to Italy. In my defense, I have only been outside of the country once - to visit my wife (girlfriend at the time) while she was studying abroad in Florence. We traveled to Rome, Venice, and Padua while we were there. It was a blast, but if I am going back to Europe, I would like to go to a different country. I should also point out that my wife has been almost everywhere, including France. In her defense, she has said that she would love to go to France, but she is pretty concerned that it is going to turn into a wine trip.

Keeno, a couple of thoughts.

My wife and I have been traveling to Europe for over 25 years now (even before we were married) and you can not go wrong either way.

As for Italy, you have not seen Italy yet, trust me! You had a good start, but you have sooooo much more to see.

As for France AND Italy on the same trip, we did this two trips ago, but only a small part. We spent 10 days in Italy but only enjoyed central Italy. We rented a villa south of Florence and stayed within 2-3 hours of our villa. We also spent 7 days in Paris, but only enjoyed Paris on this trip.

While we always hit a planned winery or two, we never make wine a focus on our trips, never.

NOW, about this wife of yours. An Art History major you say. Please know I think very highly of your wife Keeno, very highly!

And speaking of art, there is more art in France AND Italy than you could see in a lifetime!

Once you know where you are going, please let me know and I will help if I can. We have a little wedding to pay for so no Europe this year ( ) but Spain and Italy next year.

Thank you wine + art! See comments below:


"As for Italy, you have not seen Italy yet, trust me! You had a good start, but you have sooooo much more to see. "

I would agree. There are other places I want to visit, but my wife does want to return to a lot of the places we have already been. I am happy to do it, but I want to see a new country!

"As for France AND Italy on the same trip, we did this two trips ago, but only a small part. We spent 10 days in Italy but only enjoyed central Italy. We rented a villa south of Florence and stayed within 2-3 hours of our villa. We also spent 7 days in Paris, but only enjoyed Paris on this trip."

We may try to do this. It depends how much time I can get off work. I don't want to be rushed. I want to enjoy the vacation and be relaxed. Maybe we can spend 4 days in Paris, stop in Chateauneuf du Pape on our way to Italy, then spend 4 or 5 days in Florence/Tuscany.

"While we always hit a planned winery or two, we never make wine a focus on our trips, never."

I don't want to make it a focus either. I am sure that I would even tire of this. It also would not be fair to her. I do want to hit a couple domaines in Chateauneuf though. I just enjoy these wines so much, and I think it would be really cool to meet the people that make them.

"NOW, about this wife of yours. An Art History major you say. Please know I think very highly of your wife Keeno, very highly! "


I will pass it on to her - she thinks it's a little strange that I talk to people that I don't know on the internet. Maybe your compliment will help a little .

We both really enjoy Art History. My school didn't offer a minor as an option, only a double-major. I would have done it if I had not changed my major my sophomore year - not enough time to do both and graduate on time. Regardless, a professor encouraged me to pursue it. I took the thesis class and an independent study. The plan was to go to grad school after a year or two off from college. Ultimately, I couldn't do it. After a year out, I decided I wanted to get married and not go back to school. I felt like I could always enjoy the subject in my spare time. Do you mind if I ask why you like the subject so much? Is it just interest, or are you a teacher/professor?

"And speaking of art, there is more art in France AND Italy than you could see in a lifetime!"

I know! I know!

"Once you know where you are going, please let me know and I will help if I can. We have a little wedding to pay for so no Europe this year ( ) but Spain and Italy next year. "

Congrats on the wedding! My parents just went through the same thing with my sister. Hopefully it won't cut into your wine budget as well.
Thanks for the offer on the info. I am sure I will take you up on it once we reach an agreement. Spain sounds great too. I want to go there some day as well. The food alone would be enough reason for me to go.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Keeno,

keeno-
check your inbox.

Check the TGV schedule. Trains are fast and often.

I have found from past trips that Paris IS NOT France. So much to do and see elswwhere.

have been friom end to end of teh country. Italy a few times, but always north of Roma.

As for art, go to teh monor galleries. More to see, and some exceptional art. For instance in Madrid, cut short the Praod, and went to Regina Sophia. Tons of Picasso.

Looking forward to the river cruise. Will be going thru much of the Rhone wine area, with stops at the major centers. Boat also serves up a good amount of Burg, so will taste stuff I never had before.