really peer? a scientist at CERN trying to tell me what it's like to be poor or what the disenfranchised are dealing with? sounds like you are the one lacking any noteworthy experience. the company i own employs 100+ people, low paying and high paying. we provide better pay and better health care to our employees than most companies. we also provide job pathing AND paid training which allows for upward mobility into better paying careers in the high tech space...you don't know what you're talking about. i'd like to know what you, as a socialist, are doing to help your fellow man. please enlighten me.

You said that it "sucks to have a low-paying job anywhere" and I'm telling you, from experience, that it doesn't.

I admire what your company does for the non-wine drinking classes and your effective use of ethos-based arguments.

you didn't answer my question. what i've noticed about socialism (again, this is very general) is that creates a belief or feeling of entitlement to everything without the part that goes along with it: you need to not only work HARD for it, you need to give back to the community so others can benefit as well. again i will ask you, what are YOU doing to help other people overcome their station in life so they need not rely on others - the whole "teach me to fish rather than give me fish analogy" if you will. it's easy to say the state should provide everything. what's harder is to actually climb down off one's own bourgeoisie pedetal and get your hands dirty.

peer, i think you sound like a nice guy and you mean well, and we would probably enjoy a bottle together, but it drives me crazy when the US gets criticized for not providing a free ride. We are not a perfect country and never will bo, but what we do not do is encourage mediocrity - you have to fight for things here, but the upside is so much greater it is not even comparable. socialism has and always will encourage mediocrity - that is a terrible way to run a business and a worse way to run a country.

The problem Peer is that it is easy to be poor in Europe, but hard to get ahead. In the US if you have any skills at all you can live better then most Europions ever will. I have plans to move to Italy when my children are grown and I know that I will have to cut back from how I live now.

Matt, you sound like a good guy too and I've always enjoyed Seattle when I've had the priviledge of visiting. It's a lovely place.

I was hoping that in defending Europe, it didn't come off as insulting the U.S. but I see my mistakes now. Truly, living here has opened up financial opportunities that I would never have had otherwise. The greatest upside from living here is that there is no limit to the wealth one can achieve with hard work and dedication.

But I have lived in Europe and I have many friends and relatives in Europe. This talk about how they're all lazy and headed for the crapper hits very close to home and I feel obligated to defend them.

The U.S. is fundamentally different and you will never hear me advocate turning this country socialist. All I'm saying is that there are advantages and disadvantages to living in both places.

As far as what I am doing, I am in my mid-twenties and I have not hired anyone as of yet. But I will soon and I promise that my hiring practices and business practices will be well in line with my beliefs. Could it be any other way?

quote:

I am in my mid-twenties and I have not hired anyone as of yet. But I will soon and I promise that my hiring practices and business practices will be well in line with my beliefs. Could it be any other way?

A Socialist entrepreneur? I'm thinking oxymoron.

peer - thanks for the post - i appreciate your point and understand where you are coming from...they are very different animals, France and US - much is good and bad in both - it all depends on perspective i guess.

i wish you well in your business career. drop a line the next time you are in seattle - am sure we could have a lot to talk about over a couple of nice bottles

Indeed, nice post Peer. My response wasn't very smart and kind of agressive, just the way I don't like. I guess when you're trying to defend your ideas and country's culture, sometimes you're getting a little over excited but at one point you feel you have to answer certain comments. As mattach said, US and France have both lots of good and bad and are very different and this will not change.

Remember that attitudes of snobbism and condescenscion toward the U.S. have been present among certain segments of the French, going back all the way to the birth of the U.S.

In other words, the history of French anti-Americanism runs longer and deeper than the history of French socialism. And as you might expect, taking digs at the French is a long and hallowed tradition for Americans, whether it's their lack of military strength, differences in personal grooming habits, or whatever.

The fact that their economic system borrows elements from Marxism and yet they view it as somehow superior to pure, unadulterated communism just provides us Yanks with another target to ridicule.

quote:

Originally posted by Vinyrd Skynyrd:
Remember that attitudes of snobbism and condescenscion toward the U.S. have been present among certain segments of the French, going back all the way to the birth of the U.S.

In other words, the history of French anti-Americanism runs longer and deeper than the history of French socialism. And as you might expect, taking digs at the French is a long and hallowed tradition for Americans, whether it's their lack of military strength, differences in personal grooming habits, or whatever.

The fact that their economic system borrows elements from Marxism and yet they view it as somehow superior to pure, unadulterated communism just provides us Yanks with another target to ridicule.

French anti-Americanism??elements from Marxism ??
Err...first we're not anti-american like you'd like to think. We don't like your president (like 95% of the world) and have different opinions. That's different. If you think we're anti-american I think you haven't been to france(and yes in Paris,people are rude to everyone!!).
Second, about Marxism concepts, please elaborate. I'm quite interested. I'm far from being an economist, but I don't see any Marx in our economy models.
Last, talking about target of ridicule, please don't take it wrong, but I think those days, it's more the other way around thanks to dear G.W.B.....

Europe needs to get it's act together dealing with the brewing muslim extremist population within their borders and just ordinary muslims who cannot make a living there. In opening their borders AND protecting their national idendities, they have allowed this influx without regard for their economic potential. The Paris riots were mainly poor people who feel like they live in ghettos and are not accepted in French culture. That was not a Jihadist episode, but next time....

It's no mere coincidence that no islamic person born in this country or working in this country has committed any acts of terrorism in our country. Some have tried, but they generally don't. If they did - something would happen every day. That is because the millions of muslims who live here (minus the real nut jobs), would rather get a job here, work and support their family - than blow themselves up. I expect something one day, of course - but I still expect it from a foreigner sneaking in or overstaying to conduct something. 99% of the others want to work, pray and live in the USA for their families. Our system, while with problems allows for anyone to work as hard as they want and live here.

It's a problem for everyone, but Europe better figure this out instead of just hating our President.

In the Netherlands, they are paying very close attention to their traditionally liberal immigration policy. After the assassination of Theo Van Gogh and their immigration minister, the whole country is focusing on the terrorism problem.

It's almost an insult to the government given how hard they work to assimilate the muslim immigrants. I lived in a "muslim ghetto" in Rotterdam and I have to say it was a very nice place. I could walk a few blocks from my apartment here in Emeryville and feel less safe than I did there. The immigrants owned bars, internet cafes, restaurants, etc. and they all spoke Dutch. No illegal drug dealing at night and no violence in sight.

quote:

In the Netherlands, they are paying very close attention to their traditionally liberal immigration policy.

I think we all better pay close attention. We act like we do, but we really don't.

quote:

like 95% of the

quote:

We don't like your president

Thats why the Democrats are so weak, they care entirely too much about what Europe thinks of us. I could give a dam what France, Russia and Germany think of the USA. Both France and Russia conducted back channel business with Iraq during the UN Sactions.

You don't like GWB? What kind of a leader is Jacques Chirac?? He is as inept as Neville Chamberlin was and as least as much a coward.

What does napping on the job has to do with Iraq?

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter:
It's a problem for everyone, but Europe better figure this out instead of just hating our President.

Yes you're totally right. But don't worry it's not like we're spending our time thinking about your president! Hopefully, immigration will be better controlled but this will take time.

quote:

Originally posted by Wine Wizard:

quote:

like 95% of the

quote:

We don't like your president

Thats why the Democrats are so weak, they care entirely too much about what Europe thinks of us. I could give a dam what France, Russia and Germany think of the USA. Both France and Russia conducted back channel business with Iraq during the UN Sactions.

You don't like GWB? What kind of a leader is Jacques Chirac?? He is as inept as Neville Chamberlin was and as least as much a coward.

A coward? Why because he dared not to think like GWB? wow...smart, very smart note.
I think I'll stop the argument here. Everyone has the right to have his own opinion and obviously they pretty much differ here.

Ahh, the turn down MTH memory lane has begun

Tick Tock Tick Tock....

Last week Chirac told the world that Iran should be allowed to have nukes!!!!!

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/31/news/france.php

The man reeks of cowardice and is only competent at pacification.

quote:

Originally posted by french16:
But don't worry it's not like we're spending our time thinking about your president!

You shouldn't. You should concern yourselves with the cesspool that your country's become. From a former world power to a cowering melange of misfits in less than a century. That's quite an achievement. Pick on our president all you like as you head further down the hirsute, body-odor-fragrant path of world ridicule.

quote:

Originally posted by Wine Wizard:
Last week Chirac told the world that Iran should be allowed to have nukes!!!!!

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/31/news/france.php

The man reeks of cowardice and is only competent at pacification.

He's competent at female conquests as well. He's also got a better sense of humor than our President. So does Castro.

EDIT: I read the article. Sounds like he got caught on the record, as so many politicians do, saying something that doesn't sound good out of context. He never said that it was ok for Iran to have nukes--just that it's unlikely that Iran alone will be able to start Armageddon.

I'm surprised Board-O is part of the French-hating crowd. They at least know how to make wine, right?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Peer Gynt,

I don't hate them; I just don't respect them. Yes, they know how to make wine, but now much of the rest of the world does too.

quote:

Originally posted by Board-O:

quote:

Originally posted by french16:
But don't worry it's not like we're spending our time thinking about your president!

You shouldn't. You should concern yourselves with the cesspool that your country's become. From a former world power to a cowering melange of misfits in less than a century. That's quite an achievement. Pick on our president all you like as you head further down the hirsute, body-odor-fragrant path of world ridicule.

See, you can not even have a discussion without insults, stereotypes...what is that?
Did I insult someone or even worse an entire country? That's really pathetic.

Don't get me wrong...I love France, politics aside. However, french16, I find your comments interesting. And yet you live in and enjoy benefits of the USA?

quote:

Originally posted by Darlene:
Don't get me wrong...I love France, politics aside. However, french16, I find your comments interesting. And yet you live in and enjoy benefits of the USA?

Hey I have no problem with the US. Again, please don't think we are anti-americans in France.
My sister in law is from Iowa and american, my brother lived here for 13 years. I love living here, people in the Midwest are great and friendly. So yes I live here and enjoy the benefits. But if it makes you feel better I don't work for an american company (neither French)