I've always wondered if there is a glass ceiling for how good wine can get? We have altered, improved (although some could argue this), winemaking techniques to the point that I wonder if wine can get any better than the great wines we already know to be great? Can something like '82 Latour, '89 Petrus, '05 Mugnier Musigny, '02 Abreu Thorevilos, etc. ever really be any better than they are? Will we look back one day and think these are more like 94 pt. wines since the future choices will be that much better? Or, is it more about nature and less about manipulation that yields great wine? Thoughts.....
So much wine.....so little time!!!
Posts: 6824 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002
A very interesting topic. I posted this in another thread regarding 100 pt wines:
Here's my take on it:
quote:
100 points in 2007 versus 100 points in 2107
Another thing to consider is technological advancement in wine making. As this technology improves, our ability to produce high quality wines will continually increase. With the help of molecular biologists, geologists, and scientists in many other fields, winemakers learn what types of grapes to grow on which soils, when to harvest, and even what methods to use for fermentation and aging. Further, as we develop a better understanding for the biochemical aspects of wine production, our ability to control and enhance certain steps of production will increase. This will likely lead to an ongoing increase in both overall and peak quality of wines. It is quite possible that a wine that today would be considered perfect (100 pts) will in fact be just another fine wine (90 pts) in 100 or more years (global warming aside!).
I think if it happens it will be in the vineyard, not in the winery itself. Some of the wines you mention will get better, especially the new world wines, as the vineyards mature and reach a peak of fruit quality.
Posts: 108 | Location: Washington | Registered: Oct 02, 2006
Originally posted by dr.darkrichandbold: Can something like '82 Latour, '89 Petrus, '05 Mugnier Musigny, '02 Abreu Thorevilos, etc. ever really be any better than they are?
There are tremendous wines, perfect or nearly perfect wines going back many, many years. I'm not sure if "better," wines will be made, but I'm sure that there will be a higher number of wonderful wines as a percentage of the mix as science and technology continue to assist the winemaker.
PH
Posts: 9625 | Location: Maryland, USA (DC suburbs) | Registered: Nov 22, 2003
The questions are somewhat rhetorical. If your take is that wine will be better qualitatively in the future then that is your take. If, on the other hand, you don't think they will then PH's answer suffices. Improvements in winemaking technology and knowledge about working the vineyard can only lead to a more consistent quality across vintages.
____________________ An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools. - Hemingway
When we get to the point that we can, through biotechnology, replicate the great wines of the past, we'll know the answer to the question.
We may not be able to make "better" wines than the great vintages of the past, but we might be able to make more of it. Imagine a world where 99-100 point wines can be made for just a few dollars a bottle, in a factory. Would that be a good thing, or a bad thing?
I guess it depends on the wines. As for the future I can't comment on that, but the best wines I have routinely are CA Cabs that were made in the early to mid 90's. Not quite as impressed with some of the more recent vintages. I guess 10 years from now I can look back and comment on more of the recent ones.
Imagine a world where 99-100 point wines can be made for just a few dollars a bottle, in a factory. Would that be a good thing, or a bad thing?
Wow...good question. Strange to think, but it may be possible one day. I guess that would provide a serious blow to the wine auction industry if you can get '82 Lafite quality for $5 rather than $5000.
Already, the level of quality and choices have improved dramatically over the past 10-20 years. Before, fine wine used to equal Bordeaux and Burgundy. Now, it can be had everywhere, and there are sites all over the world that can be considered "Grand Cru" in quality.
I just wonder if any laboratory or cookbook methodology can really take the place of mother natures magic in a good year.
So much wine.....so little time!!!
Posts: 6824 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002
I just wonder if any laboratory or cookbook methodology can really take the place of mother natures magic in a good year.
Genetic modification won't replace what happens in the vineyard, but it will sure improve the baseline for what can be grown there. I expect there will be some significant improvements in the underlieing quality of all wines over the next several years. I rather look forward to getting rid of the crappy end of the product selection.
So it would seem as though most would agree that there is significant room for improvement in the bottom rung. How about the top? Can 2000 Margaux be any more of a 100 pt. wine? Can '02 Margaux be any better, or is an estate like this doing all it can do, with the rest being left to mother nature?
Would people like to see more manipulation on the end of the winemaker (ala CA) or more back to the basics with better managment of the vines during the growing season (ala France, Italy where there is more regulation in favor of less manipulation)?
So much wine.....so little time!!!
Posts: 6824 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002
Originally posted by dr.darkrichandbold: How about the top? Can 2000 Margaux be any more of a 100 pt. wine? Can '02 Margaux be any better, or is an estate like this doing all it can do, with the rest being left to mother nature?
That's speculating about where we've not gone to before. But if we can move the bottom, then we can also move the bar at the top end of the scale. I just find it difficult to know exactly where and by how much. The easy answer is that we will learn to intensify those flavours that we have already experienced and associated with top quality wines - but can you imagine what that would do to wines which some people already describe as being over-extracted? So, that said, I don't think it is so obvious where 'genetic improvement' will take us.
Yes....if the future holds local winemakers with rippling veins and arms the size of my legs because their vineyard managers have been juicing them during crush...
So much wine.....so little time!!!
Posts: 6824 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002
---------- "Sometimes when I reflect back on all the wine I drink I feel shame. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the vineyards and all of their hopes and dreams . If I didn't drink this wine, they might be out of work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to myself, 'It is better that I drink this wine and let their dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver."
- Jack Handy
Posts: 1114 | Location: San Diego | Registered: Jan 17, 2006
Originally posted by dr.darkrichandbold: Can something like '82 Latour, '89 Petrus, '05 Mugnier Musigny, '02 Abreu Thorevilos, etc. ever really be any better than they are?
There are tremendous wines, perfect or nearly perfect wines going back many, many years. I'm not sure if "better," wines will be made, but I'm sure that there will be a higher number of wonderful wines as a percentage of the mix as science and technology continue to assist the winemaker.
PH
what about the issue of water? I've already been seeing articles claiming that it takes 3 gallons of water (or more) to make 1 gallon of juice, and how many great wine producing terroirs of today will have a hard time keeping up as the planet becomes hotter and drier. Maybe the hot 2003 European summer becomes the norm instead of the exception. Maybe only a lucky few Napa vineyards will be allowed to irrigate. Maybe we've been living through the magical years and we don't know how lucky we've had it.
Originally posted by K. Patten: I think if it happens it will be in the vineyard, not in the winery itself. Some of the wines you mention will get better, especially the new world wines, as the vineyards mature and reach a peak of fruit quality.
Well said.
I'll add that a potentially great future resource for us wine lovers will be in the regions that are phylloxera free...South Australia, Chile, Argentina.
"What is man, when you come to think upon him, but a minutely set, ingenious machine for turning, with infinite artfulness, the red wine of Shiraz into urine?" -Isak Dinesen
Posts: 254 | Location: Las Vegas, Nevada - for now... | Registered: May 05, 2007
Originally posted by cdr: Or more importantly, can we look forward to a day when all wines, from the most lowly, bargain to the most hallowed, will express a sense of place?
after i drink 2 or more bottles from the most lowly, bargain to the most hallowed in a span of an hour, it usually expresses itself in the porcelain temple for me.
Posts: 3655 | Location: NYC | Registered: Feb 16, 2007
Many of the great wines of the past were “flukes”. Everything came together to achieve wine nirvana. With improving understanding and/or technology the ability to make wines of such quality will increase. The best wines of the future may not be better than the best wines of the past but they will be more common and readily available.
Posts: 289 | Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA | Registered: Jun 29, 2003
Today a perfect wine is just perfect in its own right. A 100pts Margaux is still quite different from a 100pts Brunello.
Some elements of perfection will continue to improve. Like fruit, concentration, structure of tannins and acidity balance. Simply because we know more about the growing and wine making process. I find it hard to imagine that the unique combination of those ingrediënts and terroir and climate can be manufactured.
Yes, I do expect that we will see an big increase of the number of 85-95pts wines because of advancement in technology (both in the vineyard and the cellar). And more places with the perfect grape/soil/climate match will be found. But I expect only a limited increase in 95+pts wines.
Albert Jochems - life is to short to drink bad wines -
Posts: 411 | Location: The Netherlands | Registered: Aug 19, 2006
I got curious about the past development after writing the previos message. How was the development in the past decades? Well, its not scientificly reliable but the following results came from a query of the WS database:
I think the more appropriate interpretation of that raw data is that the variance in the % has decreased in recent years. This is consistent with the improved consistency theory.
____________________ An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools. - Hemingway
Interesting that the variance seems to decrease right around 1995.
Which is right about the time that the current trends in modern winemaking began to kick into full gear (picking later, more rigorous selection, more use of 100% new oak, wines that were 12-13.5% alcohol becoming 14.5-16%, etc.)
So much wine.....so little time!!!
Posts: 6824 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002
