Hello all,

I have been lurking on the board for a couple of years but I recently decided to get into the game by joining the forums. I am in my early 30's, have been drinking wine for about 10 years, and starting getting into collecting 4 years ago. I am still a relative novice and I hope you'll excuse me if this is a stupid question.

Regarding Pinot Noir, twice in the last year I have had a bottle from California (a bottle of Hitching Post's Highliner and a Belle Glos Clark & Telephone) that tasted like it was almost carbonated. Am I crazy or is that a known quality to Pinot Noir? If I'm not crazy, what causes that sensation? Is it high acidity? It doesn't overpower the fruit and other flavors, so it doesn't strike me as being due to a high alcohol level.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

You're not crazy. I've experienced it also. From my limited knowledge, it's either microbes leftover from the fermentation process and / or leftover co2 and / or argon gas added by the winemaker.

Of course, since I don't make wine, I may be wrong

I don't think it is more likely to happen in pinot versus other wines. Certainly a phenomenon that exists, have had it in a number of bottles - a particular Andrew Murray Syrah comes to mind -

It's usually left over CO2 that is used to keep the oxygen out of the wine while it's in holding tanks or bottling.

I had a 2003 Kenwood Jack London Cab Sauv last weekend that had the fizz. Put my thumb over the open bottle, gave it a good shake and got most of it out.

rhys/alesia recommended i do this with ALL of their bottles. i opted just to buy something else.

quote:

Originally posted by flop:
Put my thumb over the open bottle, gave it a good shake and got most of it out.

Never happened to me.

That happens enough with young Oregon Pinot Noirs that I give them all a quick shake after opening.

If they foam up at all, I'll shake more until the foaming quits. It does improve the taste.

If the wine is spritzy enough that it forms bubbles when you pour it into the glass, it is more likely secondary fermentation, not CO2.
That is usually found in wines with some residual sugar, not totally dry Pinots.

quote:

Originally posted by TBird:
rhys/alesia recommended i do this with ALL of their bottles. i opted just to buy something else.

quote:

Originally posted by flop:
Put my thumb over the open bottle, gave it a good shake and got most of it out.

Not Pinot, but Mollydooker recommends the same thing.

I have not experienced this with Pinot Noir, but I have with Pinot Blanc on more than one occassion. However, I have enjoyed this subtle "spritz" when present in some Pinot Blancs.

I think I'll have time around noon today to reply in detail to this. Almost everything written so far is wrong in some way.

I'm not sure what the correct answer is, but I experienced the same in a bottle of AP Vin Kanzler Vineyard. I asked the waiter about it and he told me it was because of the "minerality of the Willamette Valley." Sorry I asked...

First let me get some stuff back on track:

"it's either microbes leftover from the fermentation process and / or leftover co2 and / or argon gas added by the winemaker."

It's not microbes (directly) or 'leftover' CO2, and it's sure not Argon.

"I don't think it is more likely to happen in pinot versus other wines."

Mostly true.

"It's usually left over CO2 that is used to keep the oxygen out of the wine while it's in holding tanks or bottling."

That's not where the CO2 is coming from.

"If the wine is spritzy enough that it forms bubbles when you pour it into the glass, it is more likely secondary fermentation, not CO2."

Kind of right CO2 is a by product of fermentation, secondary or otherwise.

"rhys/alesia recommended i do this with ALL of their bottles. i opted just to buy something else."

This is the 'Mollydooker shake', that's to get free sulfur out of a reductive wine, something different.

"Put my thumb over the open bottle, gave it a good shake and got most of it out."

This will actually work fine for minor CO2 issues.


"Not Pinot, but Mollydooker recommends the same thing."

This is reduction not a CO2 issue.

I'll do another post on what's going on and some reasons why next.

correct me if i'm wrong , but MD recommends you do this to their wines regardless of the presence of "bubbles".
i opened 6 VERY bubbly rhys/alesia pinots in a row and they were basically carbonated. this has never happened to me before, even with MD...when i contacted rhys/alesia about it, they instructed me that yes, indeed, this is what i can expect from their wine. "shake it off, you'll be fine."
"um, no, i'll just buy something else"...

quote:

Originally posted by Stefania Wine:
"rhys/alesia recommended i do this with ALL of their bottles. i opted just to buy something else."

This is the 'Mollydooker shake', that's to get free sulfur out of a reductive wine, something different.

Spritz or carbonation in a non sparkling wine is usually considered a fault. It occurs when CO2 can not come into contact with air to dissipate and is absorbed by the wine.

There are a few ways this can happen.

Some wines and wineries use CO2 in the fermentation process to protect the must from oxygen. This is the method used in Nuevo wine. It is possible that in a totally closed environment the must will absorb CO2. Most wineries I know use Argon instead of CO2 to avoid any risk of the must absorbing CO2.

CO2 is not generally used otherwise, it's been largely replaced by Argon. Nitrogen is used in the bottling process and is not absorbed by wine.

CO2 is a by product of fermintation. If wine is bottled with residual sugar and not enough sulfur to prevent fermentation from starting, it may start to ferment again in the bottle (this is how Champagne is made). With no where for the CO2 to go, it is absorbed by the wine.

It may also be microbial. Some microbes also produce CO2 as a by product and that can occur in bottle, or anytime during the winemaking process.

It can occur during fermentation and storage (barrel or tank). If fermentation continues and the environment is close to air (like a barrel), the resulting CO2 will be absorbed.

So why does it happen, and why is it reported so much in Pinot Noir? Some common reasons:

1. Grapes about 24-25 Brix are more prone to having un fermented sugar. That sugar can then start to ferment again in barrel or bottle. Pinot is often harvested above those levels, as are many other grapes.

2.Pinot Noir and Syrah are often fermented whole cluster or whole berry. There is some thought (I don't rally agree with this personally) that CO2 can become trapped inside a fermenting whole berry.

3.The current fashion for handling Pinot Noir is to press gently and transfer at once into barrel, then to not rack the wine once in barrel or rack one time at most.
A. Racking offers the wine a chance to rid itself of any CO2 in barrel. When it's not done, there is increased chance of absorbing CO2
B. It's difficult to judge in a must when fermentation is 100% complete. Even with lab samples and testing there may be some sugar left at pressing. This means fermentation can continue in barrel
C. In barrel the objective is to keep all air out, this increases the risk of CO2 absorbtion if fermentation is ongoing.
D. Wineries are lowering their sulfur additions and timing them differently, this increases the risk of continued fermntation and microbial issues.

There are all kinds of steps you need to take as a winemaker to prevent this from happening and the difficult part is that many of the things we do to increase quality also increase the risk of CO2 issues.

The key is getting the wine to 'dry', with no sugar left, and getting the right level of sulfur into the wine to protect it. Filtering will also prevent microbial issues, but almost no one wants to do this on fine wine.

This got a little long, but it's the basics.

I don't know if any of you have really smelled a reductive wine, one that absolutely stunk from rotten eggs. I had a barrel sample of 2005 La Vinya del Vuit 3 years ago. It stunk so badly I was going to dump it and get a new glass, but Rene said to keep swirling. After a full 5 minutes, which seemed a lot longer, the stink dissipated and was replaced by a beautiful cherry nose.

Tbird - check your facebook inbox

Board-o, that's Hydrogen Sulfide, strickly speaking, a fault on its own. Hydrogen Sulfide production can be a by product of fermentation or additions. Once at the rotten egg stage, it's rare to get it out with air, but it may happen.

see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...ult#Sulfur_compounds

and Wine Library actually has a good simple definition:

http://terroir.winelibrary.com...-your-understanding/

Paul, thanks for the clarification!

quote:

Originally posted by TBird:
correct me if i'm wrong , but MD recommends you do this to their wines regardless of the presence of "bubbles".
i opened 6 VERY bubbly rhys/alesia pinots in a row and they were basically carbonated. this has never happened to me before, even with MD...when i contacted rhys/alesia about it, they instructed me that yes, indeed, this is what i can expect from their wine. "shake it off, you'll be fine."
"um, no, i'll just buy something else"...

quote:

Originally posted by Stefania Wine:
"rhys/alesia recommended i do this with ALL of their bottles. i opted just to buy something else."

This is the 'Mollydooker shake', that's to get free sulfur out of a reductive wine, something different.

I've also experienced this with Rhys / Alesia. It was one of a couple of reasons why I no longer buy them.

At least I was mostly right - I am so proud.

Paul and others, thanks very much for your responses.

quote:

Originally posted by TBird:
correct me if i'm wrong , but MD recommends you do this to their wines regardless of the presence of "bubbles".
i opened 6 VERY bubbly rhys/alesia pinots in a row and they were basically carbonated. this has never happened to me before, even with MD...when i contacted rhys/alesia about it, they instructed me that yes, indeed, this is what i can expect from their wine. "shake it off, you'll be fine."
"um, no, i'll just buy something else"...

quote:

Originally posted by Stefania Wine:
"rhys/alesia recommended i do this with ALL of their bottles. i opted just to buy something else."

This is the 'Mollydooker shake', that's to get free sulfur out of a reductive wine, something different.

I've only heard of that problem (and a few others) in '04s. Correct? Anyway,they've addressed those problems, and perhaps not coincidentally, changed the winemaker. They also replaced reductive bottles.

I've had this with young rieslings and some italian red table wine. Didn't realize it was considered a wine fault as I tend to find it pleasant.

I've found it in two bottles of Pinot Noir in the past, though I'd have to look through my old notes to figure out which ones. I do think they were both from Calif. I've never experienced it in any other type wine.

Thanks for the info, Paul.

Coincidentally, I opened a 2005 Novy Syrah Santa Lucia Highlands last night. At first pour, it was fizzy and smelled of death. I did the MD shake and it nearly exploded and foamed over. Then I double decanted it. After an hour, it was drinking beautifully. Great nose, no fizz. Not much of a mid-palate but that's a different matter.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that it has also happened with three different 2004 Alesia PN's and one 2004 Alesia Syrah. But those never really came around in spite of several attempted manipulations to fix the problem.