Ne Kulturny:
Is it fair to blame the victim for the criminal's action? Do you blame women who are raped by evil guys because they wear alluring clothing, or do you blame banks for being robbed because they keep money in their facilities.

If a person is dishonest, and thereby injures an honest person, so far as I can tell, the bad guy is the dishonest person, not the victim.

quote:

Originally posted by James Molesworth:
cuffthis: try this link...nothing is being hidden. It's all in the mag too...

but methinks we have had this conversation with you before...

James,

I read these guidelines. More than once. They do not say anymore than send in a wine list, a menu and $250.

What EXACTLY does WS do after these items are submitted?

I want to go on the record. I would like to have WS recognize the effort I put into my wine list with an award.

But, as I've said since my first post on this subject, why should I participate in a program that doesn't meet the standards of excellence for a lot of the serious readers of this forum, including myself?

James, when I read your tasting notes and the articles you write, I read and see your passion. And I love it.

When I read the WS Dining Awards, I see BS, plain and simple. And I don't respect it. And I speak up. And I offer solutions, not just complaints. WS never responded to my request to help make the Dining Awards more credible.

I'm still waiting..............

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by cuffthis:
I would like to have WS recognize the effort I put into my wine list with an award.

They recognize it. We all recognize it. You tell us ad nauseum.

1) Last time I checked Wines & Vines was a print publication that also ran a website, like WS, not just some pesky little blogger sniping from the sidelines.

2) How many people scammed you with bogus checks for payment of awards or subscriptions? I bet none. You have systems in place for that. Therein lies the focus?

3) There are clearly weaknesses in the system. Something more than “…lists are then judged for one of our three awards” after submitting a menu and a check. I think those few dissenters are simply asking for an accounting or breakdown of HOW you make these determinations. We know how your 100 point system breaks down…

4) Calls to mind the great Gallo Chard ABC’s of Wine debacle where we all received our “Encyclopedia of Food” issues poly-bagged with mini-catalogs from wine.com that promised an “Exclusive Offer” for subscribers. On page 17, there it was, plain as day: “Wine.com and Wine Spectator are proud to bring you… the perfect pairing of wine selections and wine knowledge.” Save $10 off the $99.99 Wine Spectator’s ABC’s of Wine Tasting package that includes the official Wine Spectator School course AND six varietal wines. The kicker? Five of the wines were in the E. & J. Gallo portfolio (nothing wrong with that in and of itself)… including the Gallo of Sonoma Chardonnay that WS gave a 55-point rating to previously! But then you turned around and endorsed the wine as exemplary of its type… makes me wonder what kind of wine knowledge pairs perfectly with a wine that you gave a barrel-scraping 55 to (I mean they got 50 points just by having a glass bottle, a label, a cork, and some liquid inside.) It’s just that kind of lasee faire attitude that opens you up to this kind of thing.

5) May we see a copy of the entire menu with all the wines you say were on there?

6) While this is not the way one should go about proving their point (hey wine.com!) it does show that perhaps the wards are a tad hollow if everyone is getting rubber stamped once the simplest of criteria are met.

I feel bad for Thomas and the whole staff at Wine Spectator - because I know this type of thing could have happened to me.

We used to have a page on our website that listed the restaurants and retail shops that carried our wine. I eventually deleted it because it was impossible to keep up to date... and because I hated getting calls from places asking why they weren't on the list. If someone had emailed me claiming to be the somm at a restaurant that carried our wine, and there was a working website, I'd have added them to my website without any hesitation. So I could have been scammed too.

Let's not forget that no one would have been actually misled or "hurt" by this scam of Wine Spectator. No one was misled into having dinner at this restaurant - any more so than someone would have been if another award winning restaurant closed after publishing the list - which I'm sure has happened more than just a few times.

And any restaurant that sent in a fake list would just be hurting themselves since anyone who went there explicity because of the award would be pi$$ed off - which usually gets broadcasted far and wide. No business wants that type of "publicity" or word of mouth.

I see this whole thing as a prank and not a a scientific study, even though it was presented to the American Association of Wine Economists (is there really such a thing or is this the name of a drinking organization?). However, I have to admit that it should not be so easy to dupe or "scam" the WS review board. It would behoove the editors to vet the applicants more rigorously in the future, and I hope that they are working on this for the next year's issue.

Tannat Madiran: let me guess. You work for Wines and Vines?

It irks me the way people are attacking WS about this issue. WS has never had a similar instance like this happen to them before. Were they setup? YES. WS has already let us know what happened. Isn't that enough??? They probably will take measures to insure that it doesn't happen again. Do they have to explain to us what they will do??? NO. WS is there to provide a service that we have the option to use. I believe that most of the people that post here are aware of what a good wine list is and that an award doesn't mean that you or I are guarenteed to agree with them. I feel blessed because I don't need an award to tell me if a place has a good wine program. I either go by recent word of mouth, or just give a place a shot. If I am not happy w/ the results then I'll take it into consideration next time. How many true wine lovers who post here actually go to a restaurant only because WS gave them an award? I can speak for myself and say that a WS award or lack of has never been a factor in where I dine.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Loring:
No one was misled into having dinner at this restaurant

Actually Brian, according to Chowhound.com, some diners liked the food there though they did post that it was closed quite often due to odd hours by the proprietor.

Nope, just aware of "other" sources for wine information...

quote:

Originally posted by Board-O:

quote:

Originally posted by cuffthis:
I would like to have WS recognize the effort I put into my wine list with an award.

They recognize it. We all recognize it. You tell us ad nauseum.

You say ad nauseum - I say consistency and firm resolution.

Enjoy your night.

Tannat Maddiran,

if you do not work for them!
are you Mr. Goldstein!!!!!!!!

Thomas Matthews,

is WS taking any type of action against these people!

Sorry, but this episode only reinforces what I consider to be the lack of any value that the first-level award holds, due to the fact that any restaurant with a printer, spell-check, Word skills and $250 can garner an "award".

The repeated comments by members here and elsewhere who do not ever use it to direct their dining choices means to me that I am not alone in judging the award's value to be so low.

Looks like MSNBC got word a little late. They just ran a piece on the Abrams Report about the entire story, and it made WS look pretty bad.

You watch MSNBC?

quote:

Originally posted by wine+art:
You watch MSNBC?

They ran it under the title "Wine Speculator" to boot.

quote:

Originally posted by Brunello Drinker:

quote:

Originally posted by wine+art:
You watch MSNBC?

They ran it under the title "Wine Speculator" to boot.

... well, glad to see someone is watching.

Perhaps the Wine Speculator should be on the Squawk Box in the morning.

quote:

Originally posted by James Molesworth:
I am however, disappointed at how many people jumped on the 'trash WS' bandwagon before both sides of the story had been told...

I understand you anger, you work for WS and I assume you love what you do and who you work for. With that being said those of us who post here are not your normal wino's and most of us have been to AofE restraunts have looked at their wine list and all thought "how the hell did they get the award". It really is not that hard to believe that the AofE is giving out like candy with next to no due diligence.

quote:

Originally posted by wine+art:
You watch MSNBC?

Contessa Brewer ... mmmm

I have used the WS list as a resource for over 20 years when traveling for both business and personal. I have found it to be very useful, and the perfect starting point for research.

Before the internet, it was simply an invaluable tool, and with very few exceptions, I have always been pleased.

I would also challenge others that the VAST majority of restaurants taking the time to apply, do care about their wine list, and that said list is truly above average.

What resource does everyone prefer?

It goes without saying I prefer personal reference, but WS is still a rock solid resource.

The amount of people on this forum that would bitch if they were hung with a new rope is amusing to me.

quote:

Originally posted by wine+art:

The amount of people on this forum that would bitch if they were hung with a new rope is amusing to me.

Are we talking nylon or 100% manila hawser?

'Course, I'm only an average person who would be bitching just about being hung; only true afficionados would care about the age of the rope.

Caveat Emptor people. I read WS online. I read the mag. I read Parker. I read ChowHound. I read Yelp. All of these sites will get referenced if I am choosing a restaurant I don't know, and wine is part of the choice equation. Almost all of them are available for free. Personally, WS awards do not figure into my equation because the first time I looked at the list I saw restaurants I don't like on the list. It wasn't a big deal, kind of like not buying the wine of a critic whose palate doesn't match mine. I really don't get what the scam proves. I do appreciate WS responding.

For God's sake, much ado about nothing. So WS was duped. They operate a business with a reasonable expectation of honesty which is all they can afford to do.
I have newa for all of you. I ate at Osteria L’Intrepido when I was in Milan last March and found it one of the most exciting new restaurants in Northern Italy (God I hope Milan is in N Italy). If you go, you must try the humble pie.

zzzzzzzzzzzzz. . . . . . . . . . .

This can be prevented simply by remembering that 99.9999% of what is on the INternet and a large portion of what we read as news, is fraudulent.

James, Thomas

I will also ask Robin Goldstein the same question.:

Will you post the complete wine list submitted by Goldstein?

WS did more to try to validate the existence of "Osteria L’Intrepido" than I had expected, but I don't actually give the slightest damn about whether a fictitious restaurant got an award. I care about the real restaurants that submit wine lists which don't represent what they actually offer, whether due to laziness or deceit. Most restaurants don't provide their wine lists on-line, and if they do then prices are almost never provided.

So what can be done to validate an Award of Excellence winning list using phone calls to the establishment and internet searches? Nada. If a restaurant submitted a fraudulent or old list, how would I know that as a consumer? I don't have access to the list submitted to WS.