quote:

Originally posted by Brandon M:
Could someone please define "Wine Critic" for me. I'm confused.

Someone other than a salesman like Gary V.

Clear it up for you yet?

Wow...I go out of town for four days of golf, and this topic now has five pages of post.

I do not care enough to read any of the post due to the topic, but once again, WOW.

quote:

Originally posted by Brandon M:
WELL...that about clears it up.

All of the antibiotics in the world won't clear Jaimelia up.

I've always looked at WLTV like I'm sitting with an acquaintance, who owns a wine shop and knows a heck of a lot more about wine than I do, in his office and enjoying wines. Sometimes he pulls a bottle from his large inventory, other times he doesn't, sometimes others sit in at the table.

Whatever the specifics of the day, I feel like I'm getting an honest commentary of the bottle at hand. Someone commented on the percentage of his 'passing' on his own wines as representing the quality of wines he carries, but what I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that one reason he passes on a lot of wines is the QPR, quality price ratio. He'll even say that a wine is good, but for the money you can get a lot better, or that while a wine is $20, he passes because you could get comparable for $15. Not panning the wines, just saying they aren't good value.

Whether it's someone who's a retailer, hobbyist, or writer who's paid to review wines and write articles to help sell a magazine that also sells wines via the ad space they sell, then that person is acting as a critic when publicly using their experience to discuss wines.

Whether it be a Gary, a Robert, an Allen, one of the James gang or others, it's all just people giving their critique on a wine. And no matter how much they know, they aren't perfect and just because they like something doesn't mean you will.

Trust YOUR palate.

Jim
RedLoverJim, a Vayniac

This is for James Molesworth...
Is Gary V selling wine not similar to WS sellin advertisements about wines that you critic....I mean this is all such interpretation. Didn't you guys get caught with your pants down when you gave a spectator star to a restaurant that had wines that the editors at WS had universally panned?
I just want to be sure that you are able to question the built in biases that WS has as well when you question the biases of Gary and WLTV.....

Boy, any negative comments about GV really gets the cockroaches scurrying. FWIW, I prefer to not take wine recommendations from a snake oil salesman. (where is that gasoline on the fire graemlin?)

I don't think the wine library and wine spectator crowds mix very well.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Canada:

This is for James Molesworth...
Is Gary V selling wine not similar to WS sellin advertisements about wines that you critic....

You can not be serious.

quote:

Originally posted by wine+art:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Canada:

This is for James Molesworth...
Is Gary V selling wine not similar to WS sellin advertisements about wines that you critic....

You can not be serious.

Unfortunately, I think he is.

Dave: Thanks for your question. Though the advertising-affects-scores argument gets tossed around ad nauseum, I won't ever stop responding to it. Show me the ad Chateau Margaux or Jean-Louis Chave took out in our magazine...show me the scores for all advertisers vs. non-advertisers (someone did a study on this once and found no difference).

As for the wine list scam, that was also beaten to death, but I will clarify here again - the reserve list in question on that fake entry had less than a few dozen wines that were rated poorly by us, out of a list of a few hundred wines that had been rated well (or not at all).

Are you saying that because our magazine sells ads, there is a conflict in our reviewing wines that is as great as a retailer who hawks their wares? Sorry, but I don't follow that reasoning. Plus we have discussed our tasting methodology (blind tastings) in these forums a lot recently - a methodology we believe eliminates any bias and gives as fair and objective a review as possible.

And let me reiterate - my problem was with the NY Times headline that referred to Gary V as a 'critic' which I felt glossed over a very obvious conflict of interest considering Gary V sells wines directly, not advertisements to either wine or non-wine related entities. I am happy that Gary V sells a ton of wine. I have friends who buy at his store and they tell me they love it. I have bought from his store in the past. As someone who writes about wine for a living, all I want is for people to go out and buy it and consume it...I just want them to know and understand where their buying advice and information is coming from before they spend their hard earned money...

And I would like to see the name calling stopped. I don't mind a good ribbing and sometimes the one liners here are pretty funny. But let's keep it clean - when it deteriorates, I tune out.

Now, back to my Jets game. If my wife sees my typing on a Sunday, I'll have worse to answer to than the peanut gallery here... Cheers!

nice to see that JM and I agree on a few things ... J ... E ... T ... S ... JETS JETS JETS!!!

one more observation ... when someone calls someone else a cockroach, ALL bets are off.

quote:

Originally posted by NY Pete:
one more observation ... when someone calls someone else a cockroach, ALL bets are off.

Metaphorical. But if the shoe fits.....

Scurrying out for a moment...

I just wanted to say that I've never seen any evidence that any of the WS editor's reviews is influenced by ad sales, and I didn't mean to imply that. However, in addition to doing reviews, the editors also write articles, report industry news and in the process develop personal and professional relationships with entities and individuals in the industry who's interests they are critiquing, for the end purpose of selling a product: the magazine. I don't begrudge that, and don't want to give that impression.

But I also dislike seeing someone else begrudged because in one capacity they act as a critic, giving their honest opinion, while in another capacity they try to sell a related product. He's playing multiple roles.

If you don't like his style, that's one thing, to each his own, but don't hate him because he's a good salesman, and respected as a wine critic (because he is indeed one) even if you don't like/agree with/listen to his critiques.

I find entertaining though that some call him a snake oil salesman in a derogatory way while it's very possible those same people bought the same snake oil from a different salesman. Do they go into their LWS and call the proprietor names because he's selling the same wines as GV, or worse yet, likes or dislikes the same wines?

Jim
aka RedLoverJim

did someone say JETS????

quote:

Originally posted by RedLoverJim:
Scurrying out for a moment...

I just wanted to say that I've never seen any evidence that any of the WS editor's reviews is influenced by ad sales, and I didn't mean to imply that. However, in addition to doing reviews, the editors also write articles, report industry news and in the process develop personal and professional relationships with entities and individuals in the industry who's interests they are critiquing, for the end purpose of selling a product: the magazine. I don't begrudge that, and don't want to give that impression.

But I also dislike seeing someone else begrudged because in one capacity they act as a critic, giving their honest opinion, while in another capacity they try to sell a related product. He's playing multiple roles.

If you don't like his style, that's one thing, to each his own, but don't hate him because he's a good salesman, and respected as a wine critic (because he is indeed one) even if you don't like/agree with/listen to his critiques.

I find entertaining though that some call him a snake oil salesman in a derogatory way while it's very possible those same people bought the same snake oil from a different salesman. Do they go into their LWS and call the proprietor names because he's selling the same wines as GV, or worse yet, likes or dislikes the same wines?

Jim
aka RedLoverJim

Subtle difference....The proprietors at my local wine store don't sell themselves as a critics. If they were to hype up average or sub-par wines (who could I be talking about here?), I would stop buying wine from them. Our seller/consumer relationship is built on years of mutual experience. They often steer me away from wines that they know I won't like (and no, not toward more expensive bottlings). Gary in no more of a critic in my mind as Wilfred Wong (Bevmo) or the tools from Wine Enthusiast.

Not so subtle difference...The proprietor at my local wine store doesn't act like an lunatic when discussing wines. You (and others) obviously have a man crush on Gary. Great. I have nothing against him personally. I wish him the best success as a wine retailer. And if he gets neophytes excited about wine, all of the power to him (good business plan - more customers). He simply is not my cup of tea.

quote:

Originally posted by wine+art:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Canada:

This is for James Molesworth...
Is Gary V selling wine not similar to WS sellin advertisements about wines that you critic....

You can not be serious.

I didn't say it was the same thing...by similar I meant that people can read into a lot of things and feign bias......
I appreciate your reply James. I have no issue with the way in which WS rates wines but just wanted to double check that you guys are aware that there can also be a conception of improprity aside from selling wines that you rate....anyways, you responded so I'll leave that alone.....
The bottom line for me is that if people want to listen to Gary's scores and use them to buy wine then more power to them....I think he is a critic....it just depends on whether or not you see him as a critic that you want to base your buying decisions on. Why debate the obvious, he is a critic.
There are many critics that I choose not to follow based on the fact that I have tasted wines they have reviewed and have been 5-8 points in a different direction. Isn't that the most important thing???? seeing how your palate matches to a critic and basing buying decisions on that?

quote:

Originally posted by Red guy in a blue state:

quote:

Originally posted by RedLoverJim:
Scurrying out for a moment...

I just wanted to say that I've never seen any evidence that any of the WS editor's reviews is influenced by ad sales, and I didn't mean to imply that. However, in addition to doing reviews, the editors also write articles, report industry news and in the process develop personal and professional relationships with entities and individuals in the industry who's interests they are critiquing, for the end purpose of selling a product: the magazine. I don't begrudge that, and don't want to give that impression.

But I also dislike seeing someone else begrudged because in one capacity they act as a critic, giving their honest opinion, while in another capacity they try to sell a related product. He's playing multiple roles.

If you don't like his style, that's one thing, to each his own, but don't hate him because he's a good salesman, and respected as a wine critic (because he is indeed one) even if you don't like/agree with/listen to his critiques.

I find entertaining though that some call him a snake oil salesman in a derogatory way while it's very possible those same people bought the same snake oil from a different salesman. Do they go into their LWS and call the proprietor names because he's selling the same wines as GV, or worse yet, likes or dislikes the same wines?

Jim
aka RedLoverJim

Subtle difference....The proprietors at my local wine store doesn't sell themselves as a critics. If they were to hype up average or sub-par wines (who could I be talking about here?), I would stop buying wine from them. Our seller/consumer relationship is built on years of mutual experience. They often steer me away from wines that they know I won't like (and no, not toward more expensive bottlings). Gary in no more of a critic in my mind as Wilfred Wong (Bevmo) or the tools from Wine Enthusiast.

Not so sublte difference...The proprietor at my local wine store doesn't act like an lunatic when discussing wines. You (and others) obviously have a man crush on Gary. Great. I have nothing against him personally. I wish him the best success as a wine retailer. And if he gets neophytes excited about wine, all of the power to him (good business plan - more customers). He simply is not my cup of tea.

Whatever....I assume your wine shop owner gives you recomendations right? he is in a sense acting as a critic to you, telling you if something is good or not right? You buy on his recomendations.
As for my man crush on Gary, I actually don't watch the show really anymore as I, like others on this board, got turned off by his obsessive marketing and 2.0 stuff. I am able to appreciate his knowledge though, and I certainly don't consider myself a wine neophyte...talk about condisention and a elevated sense of self worth

VaynerNation,

Call Gary a critic if you want. He's steered me well in some wine choices over the past couple of years, so I'll say his critical opinion has helped me out (I thought many of his '05 Sauternes opinions were spot on with my palate).

But, please appreciate JM's sentiments on this subject. He's a professional critic, it's his bread and butter, his level of expertise is of a whole different caliber than a charismatic wine store guy. I don't begrudge James for guarding his trade as would a NY Times reporter, an ASE certified mechanic, and top-tier chef against a guy with a store that sells note pads, wrenches and a good set of knives.

In Gary's defense, I'd imagine that he's not about to compare his critical abilities with the biggest names in the industry, I don't think that's his goal anyways.

Dave Canada pretty well mirrors my feelings. When I wanted recommendations on South Africa wines from my LWS recently, I asked a store employee who's opinion I valued. Was he selling me wine? Yes, (since I was in a buying mood) and I feel he made his best (and critical) recommendation, from their stock, based on my criteria and his tastings of those wines. He acted as a critic and retailer at the same time, and I would assume most people on this forum have had a similar experience. Sadly, most of us have jobs that don't involve tasting many wines a day or week, and so we occasionally call upon the experience of those who do, and their critical opinions.

I don't have a man crush on Gary, any more than I or these forum readers do on the editors who write WS articles and blogs that we read on a regular basis. I have met him, he seemed like a genuinely nice guy, and I watch those of his shows that interest me. We do however, all share a common love of wine, and what Red Guy would call acting like a lunatic, others would call enthusiasm for something we all enjoy. I know I wish I had half that much passion for my industry.

Jim
aka RedLoverJim

I think we should all meet at the monkey bars, drink a bunch of wine and discuss who has the bigger cellar. Gary or JM

quote:

Originally posted by errestaurants:
I think we should all meet at the monkey bars, drink a bunch of wine and discuss who has the bigger cellar. Gary or JM

Love it....book it. I have never been to Texas. Though I love your boy Chris Bosh!

quote:

Originally posted by indybob:

I don't begrudge James for guarding his trade as would a NY Times reporter, an ASE certified mechanic, and top-tier chef against a guy with a store that sells note pads, wrenches and a good set of knives.

In Gary's defense, I'd imagine that he's not about to compare his critical abilities with the biggest names in the industry, I don't think that's his goal anyways.

Indybob,

Valid points all, but (certification/education issues being separate) a NY Times reporter cannot deny that a note pad salesman is a reporter if he writes and sells true stories, nor can a chef deny the skills of someone with fantastic culinary skills, nor can a mechanic deny the value of skills possessed by someone who fixes engines. There is no certification or criteria for being a critic, or if there is someone forgot to tell Robert Parker when he started critiquing wine on his own. And while we may try to question the quality of a critic, the fact that they are indeed a critic (claiming the title or not) and their depth of knowledge cannot be denied.

Jim
that's RedLoverJim to you

quote:

Originally posted by errestaurants:
I think we should all meet at the monkey bars, drink a bunch of wine and discuss who has the bigger cellar. Gary or JM

I'm there! And CanadaDave, I live in Ft Worth and you have a place to crash.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Canada:

quote:

Originally posted by errestaurants:
I think we should all meet at the monkey bars, drink a bunch of wine and discuss who has the bigger cellar. Gary or JM

Love it....book it. I have never been to Texas. Though I love your boy Chris Bosh!

I thought for sure he was coming back home but he chose to re-sign.