quote:

Originally posted by GlennK:
And if you can find some 03 Barton for less than $80 that Grossie paid for his 2005, please let me know where.

You'd be surprised what you find sometimes. I picked up a case of 2003 LB recently (all they had) for $67.99 each on sale recently.

I'm talking about the more sought after wines. The wines people are crying about the low scores for. And, if you saved significantly, more power to you. Part of the savings has largely been due to the incredibly low dollar. Outside of that, I don't think the margin of savings would have been all that impressive on a lot of the wines you may have bought.

And, as for the Barton. I would pay $140-150 for the '03 any day before buying the '05 at $80. They are very different wines, and unless you have 30-50 years to wait and see if the '05 even comes around, I would consider a better place to invest the $80. This is not meant to be mean....just realistic.

quote:

Originally posted by dr.darkrichandbold:

And, as for the Barton. I would pay $140-150 for the '03 any day before buying the '05 at $80. They are very different wines, and unless you have 30-50 years to wait and see if the '05 even comes around, I would consider a better place to invest the $80. This is not meant to be mean....just realistic.

If I'm lucky I may have 30 years, but probably not 50. Siht, who knows if any of us will see tomorrow? Either way I'll be ok with it, I'm happy to leave some inheritence to my kid.

BTW, my 03 Barton was $54.50 per bottle, and I scored a mag at $100. I got in a day late on that one, I know others who got it for $50. Once again, the futures campaign worked for us.

Prices have gone up, and they're probably not realistic anymore for the likes of me but I don't regret buying 05 futures.

quote:

Originally posted by GlennK:
And if you can find some 03 Barton for less than $80 that Grossie paid for his 2005, please let me know where.

Very few people got LB for $80... I think it lasted for less than a day at that price. If you blinked, you missed it (I did). The vast majority of '05 Leoville Barton futures purchases were for around $100, and you generally had to buy at least a year or more ago to get that price (otherwise you were at $110 to 120-ish). I wasn't a buyer at those prices, and I'm happy to have instead purchased Pontet Canet ($86 a few weeks ago) and Branaire Ducru ($63 a few weeks ago) as my primary Left Bank purchases north of Margaux... and not that it's all about Parker points, but both scored higher than Leoville Barton.

Besides our currency problem, the real issues with the absurd top end pricing isn't that I can't afford First Growths, but rather that it's pulling up the prices for 2nd tier wines (such as Leoville Barton) entirely too much.

quote:

Very few people got LB for $80... I think it lasted for less than a day at that price. If you blinked, you missed it (I did). The vast majority of '05 Leoville Barton futures purchases were for around $100, and you generally had to buy at least a year or more ago to get that price (otherwise you were at $110 to 120-ish). I wasn't a buyer at those prices, and I'm happy to have instead purchased Pontet Canet ($86 a few weeks ago) and Branaire Ducru ($63 a few weeks ago) as my primary Left Bank purchases north of Margaux... and not that it's all about Parker points, but both scored higher than Leoville Barton.

Besides our currency problem, the real issues with the absurd top end pricing isn't that I can't afford First Growths, but rather that it's pulling up the prices for 2nd tier wines (such as Leoville Barton) entirely too much.

I couldn't have said this any better. Right on the mark here.

quote:

Originally posted by Vino-Ripper:
Drab, any + or - sign on LMHB? I only get online. Thanks in advance.

Bump.

Anyone? La Mission Haut Brion

quote:

Originally posted by dr.darkrichandbold:

quote:

Very few people got LB for $80... I think it lasted for less than a day at that price. If you blinked, you missed it (I did). The vast majority of '05 Leoville Barton futures purchases were for around $100, and you generally had to buy at least a year or more ago to get that price (otherwise you were at $110 to 120-ish). I wasn't a buyer at those prices, and I'm happy to have instead purchased Pontet Canet ($86 a few weeks ago) and Branaire Ducru ($63 a few weeks ago) as my primary Left Bank purchases north of Margaux... and not that it's all about Parker points, but both scored higher than Leoville Barton.

Besides our currency problem, the real issues with the absurd top end pricing isn't that I can't afford First Growths, but rather that it's pulling up the prices for 2nd tier wines (such as Leoville Barton) entirely too much.

I couldn't have said this any better. Right on the mark here.

It's well said, but that wasn't what you were saying earlier DRAB. You said "The point of futures was to reward the customer for buying 2-3 years in advance via vastly lower pricing." My point is that if you bought the correct futures you did benefit from futures purchasing. Let me say it again: If you bought the correct futures for 2005 there was a benefit.

My examples were to prove that point, they weren't listed to say that this is the best value in bdx or to tell others how big my balls are. If you want to do a $/point ratio then Barton doesn't win. That's not the point of this argument.

I'll say it again: If you bought the correct futures for 2005 there was a benefit. In fact, Jim proved this point himself. He chose very well in buying futures. I imagine those wines have gone up in price since he bought them.

If you don't want to believe that there was a benefit to futures in 05 it's fine with me. I'm here trying to defend what I see as the truth in 2005 futures, and perhaps others who are less knowledgable about this can read and learn from both of us, and act accordingly for the future.

From what I can gather, including my own personal experience. As long as you stayed away from the top-end stuff, buying (2005) futures has paid off.

quote:

Originally posted by atomsite:
From what I can gather, including my own personal experience. As long as you stayed away from the top-end stuff, buying (2005) futures has paid off.

Agree with what you and DRAB are saying. If you purchased in the "second tier" range with pricing at $80 or under, you stand to do ok assuming that you picked the 'right' wines. Certainly you won't lose money.

There was also money to be made for more expensive wines, but you needed to do you homework for those. I only bought a handful of more expensive wines (Beausejour Duffau, Pavie Macquin, and Trotanoy). As you can see, I stayed with the Right Bank... at least for those who follow Parker, it was clear from the get-go that is where smart money should go.

The Beausejour tanked from a Parker points perspective, but plenty of other critics were positive about it, and I expect it is a wonderful wine and I'm happy to own it.

As for Trotanoy, that seemed like an obvious pick to me. Parker initially rated it (90-92) and he has a history of underrating Pomerol during barrel tastings. Sure enough, in the second go-around of barrel tastings it jumped to (93-95), and ultimately scored 95 (is there a + in the printed edition? The tasting note sure reads like it). I'm sure I could sell my Trotanoy for a good deal more than the $130/bottle I paid for it.

And then there was Pavie Macquin. St Emilion was Parker's top region in the Vintage Chart from the start. The initial barrel tasting was 94-96 and I figured how could this be a miss at about $85-90/bottle?

Still... the problem now is that the Bordelais reset their pricing based on the high water mark for the last great vintage. Even though my '05 results are great, I'm now hoping for a pricing reset, at least for future vintages, as the prices for '06 and '07 are way too high IMO. The best thing that we could all do is sit on our hands and buy nothing in '06 and '07.

As for the Chinese and the Russians, despite the fact that there is all sorts of innuendo, I see very little data that corroborates this (despite nearly every Wine Spectator article throwing in anecdotal references to "groups of asians" at various Bordeaux-related events). Even that unabashed self-promoting weasel/quisling for the Bordeaux wine trade in the Parker forum agrees that no major Chateau or Negotiant claims that the Chinese are a significant en primeur buyer.

quote:

If you bought the correct futures for 2005 there was a benefit.

Sure...if you want to be technical about it. There are people who benefitted. But, like Jim said...it was mostly in the first week. And, outside of the collapse of the dollar, and considering tieing up money for 2-3 years, I didn't see the value of futures for 2005. I didn't see prices able to support further increases that were sufficient enough to warrant investing for 2-3 years. I was willing to pay a small premium when the wines came out at retail, at that point knowing I had all the reviews, scores, and ability to go to the UGC tasting and try the wines for myself. Not to mention, the back vintages available at lower prices and equal quality.

I'm happy for you that you feel like you did well. I'm happy for anyone that was able to save money on the wines they liked. But, this is a vintage, for various reasons, I was happy to stay out of en premier.

My first wave of 2005 Bordeaux have arrived. Luckily some of the 2005s will be as late as NEXT SPRING on Ontario. I say luckily as I have no problem deferring the final 50% payment on wines that I won't even touch for 15-20+ years.

Looks like RP likes the Trot and PM... anyways, here is what I got so far... how did I do?

05 Trotanoy
05 Pavie Macquin
05 Lynch Bages (Mags)
05 Leoville Barton

Reasons to buy futures:
1. To save money. If you bought futures in spring/summer 2006, you probably saved significant money, no matter your price point. Even if you bought Caronne Ste. Gemme at $12 per bottle, you made a 25% profit when it was released at $15. Same deal if you bought Ausone or Le Pin when they "soared" to $1700 per bottle. True, some or all of this increase was due to the dollar crumping, but that's why people who bought gold made a profit, too. Profit is profit. Money saved is money saved.
And I would bet that $700 for a bottle of 2005 Mouton will still pay off in the long run, if you can afford it.

2. Securing wines you might have trouble obtaining after release. Sure I could probably get anything online, but getting post-release wines from out of state to me here in the (relative) backwoods of Michigan adds significant cost and hassle. The post-release selection at my local wine shop is just so-so. There is no Costco within 50 (75?) miles of my house. So I buy futures of wines I want, and I'm quite satisfied with the results so far, even for 2005.

I concur, futures are the best way to go if you want to procure low production wines. By the time they get released you probably won't be able to get your hands on any.

quote:

Originally posted by Baird:
My first wave of 2005 Bordeaux have arrived. Luckily some of the 2005s will be as late as NEXT SPRING on Ontario. I say luckily as I have no problem deferring the final 50% payment on wines that I won't even touch for 15-20+ years.

Looks like RP likes the Trot and PM... anyways, here is what I got so far... how did I do?

05 Trotanoy
05 Pavie Macquin
05 Lynch Bages (Mags)
05 Leoville Barton

Looks like a hell of a start to me!!

quote:

Originally posted by Baird:
05 Trotanoy
05 Pavie Macquin
05 Lynch Bages (Mags)
05 Leoville Barton

I haven't had my Trotanoy yet, but I get a sense from the major critics that it's a good one. Parker is probably underrating it at 95 points, and his note pretty much says as much.

Pavie Macquin is damn good, and that seems to be a pretty universal sentiment.

I've not yet had it, but my sense is that Leoville Barton is pretty backwards and will need alot of time. Nothing wrong with that. I think everyone feels it will be a really enjoyable wine in 20 to 30 years.

From a "greatness" perspective, Lynch Bages is the question mark in your group. They seem to be underperforming a bit post-2000, relative to what people seem to expect out of them in better vintages.

Here are Parker's comments:
This outstanding effort is slightly lighter, more streamlined and delicate than followers of Lynch Bages have come to expect after such great vintages as 1982, 1989, 1990, 1996, and 2000. A deep ruby/purple hue is accompanied by a classic Medoc nose of tapenade, roasted herbs, licorice, cedar, black currants, and damp earth. Medium-bodied with moderate tannin, sweet fruit, and surprising softness as well as forwardness for a 2005 northern Medoc, it can be drunk now and over the next 20+ years.

Having said that, if you've had Lynch Bages post-2000 and enjoy them, then you'll probably be happy. At the end of the day, no critic can be a substitute for your own palate preferences.

Here's a thread, and quote from Robert Parker that I think would be good to post in a few of these discussions.....

Dated 5/22/07 on the Squires Board:

http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/showthread.php?t=13...highlight=2003+medoc

"Matthew...heading out the door for a tasting...but I did say Margaux 2005 was great....as I have written,the northern Medoc will probably end up as a great vintage...but one has to be worried ...at least somewhat...about the level of tannins in some wines...overall,I remain optimistic about their future evolution....but if I were throwing the kind of big money required today to buy into this vintage, I would put my money on the finest northern Medocs of 2003 and 2000...not 2005......elsewhere...2005 is sensational.....but all my instincts from nearly three decades of tasting young Bordeaux suggest wines such as 2003 Cos,Montrose,Lafite,Latour,Poyferre ,Pontet-Canet,Barton,and Ducru,are monumental efforts that will be regarded as historical wines in 25-50 years....as unusual as 2003 is as a vintage...these particular wines from the northern Medoc are no-brainers........"

Bump Bump.

Come on guys - someone must know if there was a + sign after the 97 score of La Mission Haut Brion. Help a brother out.

quote:

Originally posted by Vino-Ripper:

quote:

Originally posted by Vino-Ripper:
Drab, any + or - sign on LMHB? I only get online. Thanks in advance.

Bump.

Anyone? La Mission Haut Brion

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vino-Ripper:
Bump Bump.

Come on guys - someone must know if there was a + sign after the 97 score of La Mission Haut Brion. Help a brother out.[QUOTE]He gave it a 97 +/-

Thanks Glenn - clear as mud now!

No plus sign, ripper. Does it matter in some way?

quote:

Originally posted by grossie:
No plus sign, ripper. Does it matter in some way?

Oh yes, it does matter:
Parker didn't give the wines the scores the people expected, but the + sign explains it all: it means the wine people bought will ultimatively receive 100 points from Mr. Parker.
Eg. every wine above 71 points that has a + sign will ultimatively get 100 or maybe 101 points from Mr. Parker.

quote:

Originally posted by MoselleLuxemburg:

quote:

Originally posted by grossie:
No plus sign, ripper. Does it matter in some way?

Oh yes, it does matter:
Parker didn't give the wines the scores the people expected, but the + sign explains it all: it means the wine people bought will ultimatively receive 100 points from Mr. Parker.
Eg. every wine above 71 points that has a + sign will ultimatively get 100 or maybe 101 points from Mr. Parker.

Na, I was hoping for 102+

Grossie, does it matter? No, not really. I went very long in 2005 and have been very happy with all of my futures buys. It would be hard to justify the cost of some the wines today. I see DRAB's point, but your situations sounds closer to my experience. Many of my purchases have gone up 50%, some 100% and some 200%+. I view this a an investment in my wife and I's future pleasure.

I buy wines to drink, and have never sold a bottle of wine for profit. Having said that, I did buy a case of LMHB in Magnums as a bit of a speculative buy. I was able to get the mico-first traunche priceing. The price per bottle is really out of my drinking price range, and now that it is trading at close to 2k per magnum, I think i will let the profit pay for the 4 750 of LMHB i will keep and several cases of other 2005 purchases. I don't need those bottles in my cellar to show people.

quote:

Originally posted by Baird:
My first wave of 2005 Bordeaux have arrived. Luckily some of the 2005s will be as late as NEXT SPRING on Ontario. I say luckily as I have no problem deferring the final 50% payment on wines that I won't even touch for 15-20+ years.

Looks like RP likes the Trot and PM... anyways, here is what I got so far... how did I do?

05 Trotanoy
05 Pavie Macquin
05 Lynch Bages (Mags)
05 Leoville Barton

What's the matter with ya? Away for too long and need somebody to tell you how you did?

quote:

Originally posted by JimBrennan:
Very few people got LB for $80... I think it lasted for less than a day at that price. If you blinked, you missed it (I did). The vast majority of '05 Leoville Barton futures purchases were for around $100.

I remember I bought mine for £248 ($76 ex taxes per bottle) for six bottles and I couldn't buy any more at that price and that was the day it was released.

Regards,
Conor