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quote: Originally posted by Machine:
I will be cancelling a good chunk of my LCBO futures orders (not nearly as much as I thought...I knew I was in trouble after the UGC tasting, really loved a bunch of wines tasted).
Mind stating which these may be?
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An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools. - Hemingway
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| Posts: 1372 | Location: Ontario | Registered: Jul 23, 2007 | |
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quote: Originally posted by WEc: quote: Originally posted by Machine:
I will be cancelling a good chunk of my LCBO futures orders (not nearly as much as I thought...I knew I was in trouble after the UGC tasting, really loved a bunch of wines tasted).
Mind stating which these may be?
Nothing too exciting I think...and I told the guys at work I would give them first crack. Still waiting for some notes on a few, but these ones look like they will be below the line (***NOTE that I ordered about twice what I could afford to keep, figuring I would cancel half...this in my opinon is the ONLY good thing about the LCBO (the return/cancel policy)). I don't know if any of the ones that I will cancel have increased in price/are sold out, but I will do my best to post my final cancel list before I do it: Several are 'definitely cancel', some are 'probably cancel', some are 'maybe cancel': 3 bottles Leo Poy 3-6 bottles Cantenac Brown 6 bottles Latour Martaillac 3 bottles Bahans Haut Brion 3 bottles Lunch Bags 3-6 bottles Monbousquet Blanc 3 bottles Nenin 3 bottles Ormes de Pez 3 bottles Saint Pierre 3 bottles Calon Segur 3 bottles Langoa Barton 3 bottles Pagodes de Cos 3 bottles Beausejour Duffau 3 bottles Carbonnieux Blanc 3 bottles Bon Pasteur 3 bottles Les Forts do Latour 3 bottles Pavillon Rouge From my LCBO orders, I am likely keeping (but of course can cancel/return): 3 bottles Troplong Mondot 3 bottles Malescot St-Exupery 3 bottles Pontet Canet 6 bottles Montrose (*might return 3 bottles) 6 bottles Smith Haut Lafite 6 bottles Smith Haut Lafite Blanc 6 bottles Monbousquet 3 bottles Monbousquet Blanc 3 bottles Leoville Barton 3 bottles Canon la Gaffeliere 3 bottles Rauzan Segla 3 bottles Clos Fourtet 3 bottles Haut Bailly 3 bottles Lascombes 3 bottles d'Issan 3 bottles Grand Puy Lacoste 18 bottles Haut Bergey 6 bottles Haut Bergey Blanc 15 bottles Beaumont 3 bottles Rol Valentin 3 bottles Duhart Milon 6 bottles Ampelia 12 bottles Pipeau 9 bottles Puygueraud 24 bottles other assorted cheapies And I am stuck with the following US purchases (with per-bottle purchase prices in $US): 3 Angelus ($200) 4 Certan de May ($110) 5 Cos d'Estournel ($165) 3 Larcis Ducasse ($133) 3 l'Evangile ($165) 3 Hosanna ($149) 3 Palmer ($200) 3 Pavie ($260) 3 Pavie Macquin ($72) 4 Pape Clement ($169) I think I did okay on these, i.e. if I was in a bind and had to sell I could at least get my money back (all of these will be stored in NYC until I can pick them up, 4 bottles at a time each time wife and I make it down there).
"No TV and no beer make Homer...something, something"
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| Posts: 706 | Location: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 07, 2007 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Happy CSW: I was going to ask what a blabbing was, but I think I figured it out 
"Simpson you diabolical...". Yeah I know, but given the back and forth of quasi-arguments for 15 pages of thread on squires board, I wanted to pre-empt as many counterarguments as possible, thereby creating a net savings in terms of blabbing.
"No TV and no beer make Homer...something, something"
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| Posts: 706 | Location: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 07, 2007 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Machine: quote: Originally posted by WEc: quote: Originally posted by Machine:
I will be cancelling a good chunk of my LCBO futures orders (not nearly as much as I thought...I knew I was in trouble after the UGC tasting, really loved a bunch of wines tasted).
Mind stating which these may be?
Nothing too exciting I think...and I told the guys at work I would give them first crack. Still waiting for some notes on a few, but these ones look like they will be below the line (***NOTE that I ordered about twice what I could afford to keep, figuring I would cancel half...this in my opinon is the ONLY good thing about the LCBO (the return/cancel policy)). I don't know if any of the ones that I will cancel have increased in price/are sold out, but I will do my best to post my final cancel list before I do it: Several are 'definitely cancel', some are 'probably cancel', some are 'maybe cancel': 3 bottles Leo Poy 3-6 bottles Cantenac Brown 6 bottles Latour Martaillac 3 bottles Bahans Haut Brion 3 bottles Lunch Bags 3-6 bottles Monbousquet Blanc 3 bottles Nenin 3 bottles Ormes de Pez 3 bottles Saint Pierre 3 bottles Calon Segur 3 bottles Langoa Barton 3 bottles Pagodes de Cos 3 bottles Beausejour Duffau 3 bottles Carbonnieux Blanc 3 bottles Bon Pasteur 3 bottles Les Forts do Latour 3 bottles Pavillon Rouge From my LCBO orders, I am likely keeping (but of course can cancel/return): 3 bottles Troplong Mondot 3 bottles Malescot St-Exupery 3 bottles Pontet Canet 6 bottles Montrose (*might return 3 bottles) 6 bottles Smith Haut Lafite 6 bottles Smith Haut Lafite Blanc 6 bottles Monbousquet 3 bottles Monbousquet Blanc 3 bottles Leoville Barton 3 bottles Canon la Gaffeliere 3 bottles Rauzan Segla 3 bottles Clos Fourtet 3 bottles Haut Bailly 3 bottles Lascombes 3 bottles d'Issan 3 bottles Grand Puy Lacoste 18 bottles Haut Bergey 6 bottles Haut Bergey Blanc 15 bottles Beaumont 3 bottles Rol Valentin 3 bottles Duhart Milon 6 bottles Ampelia 12 bottles Pipeau 9 bottles Puygueraud 24 bottles other assorted cheapies And I am stuck with the following US purchases (with per-bottle purchase prices in $US): 3 Angelus ($200) 4 Certan de May ($110) 5 Cos d'Estournel ($165) 3 Larcis Ducasse ($133) 3 l'Evangile ($165) 3 Hosanna ($149) 3 Palmer ($200) 3 Pavie ($260) 3 Pavie Macquin ($72) 4 Pape Clement ($169) I think I did okay on these, i.e. if I was in a bind and had to sell I could at least get my money back (all of these will be stored in NYC until I can pick them up, 4 bottles at a time each time wife and I make it down there).
holy cow that's a lot of bobbing and weaving  I'd happily take both Pavie's off your hands, the Cos too. |
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| Posts: 698 | Location: Sarnia Ontario | Registered: Jun 08, 2006 | |
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quote: holy cow that's a lot of bobbing and weaving I'd happily take both Pavie's off your hands, the Cos too.
Not really bobbing...the top list are likely going to be cancelled, the middle list will likely all be kept, and the bottom list will be kept (because (a) I want them all, and (b) US retailers don't seem to have easy return policies...but I would not return any of them anyway!!). Just need to go through all of the tasting notes and do the math.
"No TV and no beer make Homer...something, something"
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| Posts: 706 | Location: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 07, 2007 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Mimik: quote: Originally posted by Foghorn Leghorn This is the post of the thread. Reminds me of folks that invested their life savings into Enron the day before the ball dropped. quote: OK, I wont lie. Post scores I went out to my CC and got drunk. I drank alot of 05 RP just boned. It was liberating. Funny part was my Somellier just bought 5 cases from me of my 05 futures and I made money. sad part was he did not know today RP released the pigeons. I dumped alot of trash tonight. but the best part was I drank with 6 of my buds some of my 05 hype. It was good but I was so pissed I could not enjoy it, I think? They tell me it was good, even through my sadness, and I should not have sold. Well, I did and it was cathartic. I feeel better. We drank an 05's. I will emerge a better person, but I have to say these wines gave me pleasure tonight, but my disappointment was palpable. None the less, I shared with my brethern and they thought I was nuts for doing so.............but the scores did hurt me, until tonight. Tonight, made me feel better. I found peace. After the wine, it was good even if the returns wont be. It was a fun evening of wine therapy.
I don't know if the poster, by the name S Kruse(screws-get it) is for real but I doubt it. Otherwise, to sell off wine that RP downgraded to an unsuspecting friend Sommelier would put him in line not only for the biggest troll of the year but the biggest piece of you-know-what of the year as well.
maybe S. stands for Serge.  |
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quote: Originally posted by Machine: quote: Originally posted by Happy CSW: I was going to ask what a blabbing was, but I think I figured it out
"Simpson you diabolical...". Yeah I know, but given the back and forth of quasi-arguments for 15 pages of thread on squires board, I wanted to pre-empt as many counterarguments as possible, thereby creating a net savings in terms of blabbing.
I hear ya. I only lasted about 5 pages... |
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| Posts: 231 | Location: Near Napa, Ca | Registered: Nov 20, 2006 | |
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quote: Originally posted by sydthesquid: maybe S. stands for Serge.
Someone on eBob beat you to it.
"Wine is bottled poetry." - Robert Louis Stevenson
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| Posts: 1625 | Location: Boca Raton, FL | Registered: Dec 29, 2006 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Happy CSW: quote: Originally posted by Machine: quote: Originally posted by Happy CSW: I was going to ask what a blabbing was, but I think I figured it out
"Simpson you diabolical...". Yeah I know, but given the back and forth of quasi-arguments for 15 pages of thread on squires board, I wanted to pre-empt as many counterarguments as possible, thereby creating a net savings in terms of blabbing.
I hear ya. I only lasted about 5 pages...
I braved the entire thing (oh, the humanity), but only because I was hoping to see some more scores and tasting notes.
"No TV and no beer make Homer...something, something"
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| Posts: 706 | Location: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 07, 2007 | |
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I ordered Angelus pretty early, I don't recall some of these wines this low. Where did you purchase these wines, particularly pavie and Angelus?
And I am stuck with the following US purchases (with per-bottle purchase prices in $US):
3 Angelus ($200)
4 Certan de May ($110)
5 Cos d'Estournel ($165)
3 Larcis Ducasse ($133)
3 l'Evangile ($165)
3 Hosanna ($149)
3 Palmer ($200)
3 Pavie ($260)
3 Pavie Macquin ($72)
4 Pape Clement ($169)
I think I did okay on these, i.e. if I was in a bind and had to sell I could at least get my money back (all of these will be stored in NYC until I can pick them up, 4 bottles at a time each time wife and I make it down there).[/QUOTE]
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quote: Originally posted by sydthesquid: maybe S. stands for Serge. Someone on eBob beat you to it. Bet its the same infamous Serge from other boards.
__________________
Ed Bowers
Live simply, Laugh often, Wine a lot!!!
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| Posts: 2781 | Location: Palm Beach Gardens FL | Registered: Nov 05, 2001 | |
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quote: Originally posted by MountainDog:
I ordered Angelus pretty early, I don't recall some of these wines this low. Where did you purchase these wines, particularly pavie and Angelus?
And I am stuck with the following US purchases (with per-bottle purchase prices in $US):
3 Angelus ($200)
4 Certan de May ($110)
5 Cos d'Estournel ($165)
3 Larcis Ducasse ($133)
3 l'Evangile ($165)
3 Hosanna ($149)
3 Palmer ($200)
3 Pavie ($260)
3 Pavie Macquin ($72)
4 Pape Clement ($169)
I think I did okay on these, i.e. if I was in a bind and had to sell I could at least get my money back (all of these will be stored in NYC until I can pick them up, 4 bottles at a time each time wife and I make it down there).
[/QUOTE] Most were ordered in late 2006 from a few different retailers...and ordered Pape Clement immediately after tasting it at UGC tasting in Toronto early this year, and ordered Hosanna after I read Suckling's tasting notes.
"No TV and no beer make Homer...something, something"
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| Posts: 706 | Location: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 07, 2007 | |
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For those that find points helpful in judging wines and comparing vintages here is a quick analysis of all the same 256 red Bordeaux that RP rated in bottle for the 2000 and 2005 vintages in the Spring of 2003 and 2008 [the report this thread is discussing] i.e. a direct like for like comparison between the two vintages.
The averages of the 256 red wines common to both vintages, scored at the same time after bottling, is 91.4 for 2005 and 91.0 for 2000.
The ratios of 2005/2000 wines scoring 100, 99, 98, 97, 96 and 95 were 2/8, 2/1, 12/6, 4/2, 13/15, 23/14 for the 256 red wines.
So 98-100 was at 16 to 15 in favour of 2005 and 95-100 was 56 to 46 and allowing for the tannic and age-worthy nature of the 2005 vintage [and the resultant? conservatism of the rating], the slight shift at the 100 level remains more than compensated for at the other levels from 98-100 and 95-100 and does not undermine the premier overall rating of the vintage as a whole.
In 2005 there were 200/256 red wines scoring less than 95 points at an average of 90.0 and in 2000 there were 210/256 red wines scoring less than 95 points at an average of 89.7.
Excluding the dry white wines [not incuded above either] the biggest gainers between the vintages were Larcis Ducasse [+11], Clos Fourtet, Fleur Cardinale [both +8], La Gaffeliere, Cos d’Estournel [both +6], Malescot St Exupery, La Fleur Morange, Haut Bailly, Lascombes, Le Gay and Pierre de Lune [all +5] where these increases took them all into the 95-100 range.
Some other notable successes: Ausone was the only wine to hit 100 in both vintages and others like L’Eglise Clinet, Troplong Mondot and Pontet Canet all +4 to 100, 99 and 96 respectively and Pape Clement, Pavie Macquin, Ducru Beaucaillou and Gracia scored +3 to 98, 98, 97, 96 and Angelus and Clos St. Martin both +2 to 98.
The biggest losers [leaving out Petrus, Lafite, Lafleur and Cheval Blanc which all remained in the 95-100 club despite losing between 4 and 5 points] were Pichon Comtesse [-11], Gruaud Larose, Le Pin [ both -5], Lynch Bages [-4] all of whom dropped out of the 95-100 range except Gruaud Larose [89 v 94].
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| Posts: 329 | Location: London, England | Registered: Feb 09, 2007 | |
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quote: Originally posted by flwino:
quote:
Originally posted by sydthesquid:
maybe S. stands for Serge.
Someone on eBob beat you to it.
Bet its the same infamous Serge from other boards.
Someone beat you telling me that someone beat me to it.  |
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quote: Originally posted by Nigel Groundwater:
The ratios of 2005/2000 wines scoring 100, 99, 98, 97, 96 and 95 were 2/8, 2/1, 12/6, 4/2, 13/15, 23/14 for the 256 red wines.
What has got many on eBob worked up is the relatively low scores of the First Growths and Super Seconds, where the really big money was spent. What Parker's scores show is that 05 was of "vintage of the century" caliber only for the Right Bank, but not for the Left Bank, where the 1st Growths and Super Seconds reside. Bottom line, 00 is better for LB, while 05 is better for RB, with both strong across the board. Most of my purchases were Right Bankers, where I could find lots of value in the $30-50 range (Fleur Cardinale $38, Pierre de Lune $45, la Clotte $37, Grand Pontet $40, Faugeres $34). I skipped my normal Left Bankers of GPL, Lagrange, Duhart (probably a mistake), Sociando, & Branaire as they were double the price for the same or sometimes less quality than 03 and 00.
"Wine is bottled poetry." - Robert Louis Stevenson
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| Posts: 1625 | Location: Boca Raton, FL | Registered: Dec 29, 2006 | |
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quote: Originally posted by vinole: quote: Originally posted by Nigel Groundwater:
The ratios of 2005/2000 wines scoring 100, 99, 98, 97, 96 and 95 were 2/8, 2/1, 12/6, 4/2, 13/15, 23/14 for the 256 red wines.
What has got many on eBob worked up is the relatively low scores of the First Growths and Super Seconds, where the really big money was spent. What Parker's scores show is that 05 was of "vintage of the century" caliber only for the Right Bank, but not for the Left Bank, where the 1st Growths and Super Seconds reside. Bottom line, 00 is better for LB, while 05 is better for RB, with both strong across the board. Most of my purchases were Right Bankers, where I could find lots of value in the $30-50 range (Fleur Cardinale $38, Pierre de Lune $45, la Clotte $37, Grand Pontet $40, Faugeres $34). I skipped my normal Left Bankers of GPL, Lagrange, Duhart (probably a mistake), Sociando, & Branaire as they were double the price for the same or sometimes less quality than 03 and 00.
I think that it is also a perception in some that scores in general are not quite in line with current/prior notes, particularly so in the big boys, but also in but also maybe in a few others...and I am talking about a point or two (or the difference between a 98+ and a 99, for example).
"No TV and no beer make Homer...something, something"
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| Posts: 706 | Location: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 07, 2007 | |
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Well, this may be an unrealistic expectation, but I'm sure we all have it to some extent. And that is......if the first growths can produce a 100 point wine in a "non-vintage of the century", they certainly should have made them in the greatest vintage "in the last 30 years". When nature does it's job, the winemaker's job should be easy, and it would stand to reason that perfect wines would just flow from their barrels. I find it nonsense that the greatest vintage of the last 30 years just means that everyone made a good wine in the vintage. If the shmucks of Bordeaux could climb the ladder in such a vintage, then the firsts and seconds certainly should have done the same. However, just looking at scores, it would appear that they did the opposite....they fell a few rungs in what should have been shining performances. Fell back to the mediocre crowds that somehow shined instead. Ya I know 96 points shouldn't be considered mediocre, but if you're a first growth anything below 100 in the greatest vintage is mediocre IMO. They missed the boat so to speak. Either that, or Parker missed the boat. Which I mentioned in the other thread also. James said these wines were closing down earlier this year already, THEN Parker goes and does his tasting in March/April AFTER they've closed down. How on earth can a critic rate wines that are closed?  |
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| Posts: 2908 | Location: Rocky Mountains | Registered: Apr 08, 2004 | |
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Foghorn, YOU HIT THE BULLEYE!! While I am not registered on the ebob forum and I will be thrown out if I mentioned this, I REALLY believe that Parker tasted these wines while they were starting to become closed DOWN. Therefore, I believe he missed the boat on this vintage. I asked Suckling to respond on another thread regarding 05 bdx being closed down but I believe that this may be the story of the year. I am beginning to think that this is a possibility. I think we may even need a separate thread title on this subject.
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"I have drunk not to the clouding of my reason, but just so much that I can still surely distinguish the syllables with my tongue." Athenaeus
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| Posts: 3375 | Location: montreal | Registered: Feb 21, 2004 | |
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Think part of the problem is that WS raved about the '05s and got everyone worked up, and expecting RP to go along with the ratings. In addition there was a mad rush to buy the '05s afater WS came out with the ratings, and I noticed that many prices started to esculate immediately. RP didn't thus we are having the fallout. There always has been a difference of opinion re the wines and ratings between these sources. Early folks are getting burned. I happen to trust RP better on the Bord's over WS any day.
__________________
Ed Bowers
Live simply, Laugh often, Wine a lot!!!
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| Posts: 2781 | Location: Palm Beach Gardens FL | Registered: Nov 05, 2001 | |
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quote: They missed the boat so to speak.
I wish I could afford some of the great wines myself, and taste them in maybe 10 years to determine if this is the case. Bottom line is that I buy to drink, not sell, so a few points here or there will not affect me, but perhaps more someone speculating. Wine is a moving target to begin with so I would withold judgement for a few more years to come. Don't forget Parker was sick/surgery and if I'm correct wasn't given medical clearance to travel until this year. Bad timing I guess. |
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| Posts: 1418 | Location: Geneva, IL. | Registered: Oct 25, 2006 | |
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Do you really think Robert Parker is incapable of assessing a bottle of Bordeaux from a First Growth Chateau? Do you think he is incapable of understanding a closed or backward wine?
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"Asking government to fix this crisis is like asking the arsonist to put out the fire." -Thomas Sowell
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| Posts: 4510 | Location: Dubai | Registered: Dec 20, 2002 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Foghorn Leghorn: Well, this may be an unrealistic expectation, but I'm sure we all have it to some extent. And that is......if the first growths can produce a 100 point wine in a "non-vintage of the century", they certainly should have made them in the greatest vintage "in the last 30 years". When nature does it's job, the winemaker's job should be easy, and it would stand to reason that perfect wines would just flow from their barrels. I find it nonsense that the greatest vintage of the last 30 years just means that everyone made a good wine in the vintage. If the shmucks of Bordeaux could climb the ladder in such a vintage, then the firsts and seconds certainly should have done the same. However, just looking at scores, it would appear that they did the opposite....they fell a few rungs in what should have been shining performances. Fell back to the mediocre crowds that somehow shined instead. Ya I know 96 points shouldn't be considered mediocre, but if you're a first growth anything below 100 in the greatest vintage is mediocre IMO. They missed the boat so to speak. Either that, or Parker missed the boat. Which I mentioned in the other thread also. James said these wines were closing down earlier this year already, THEN Parker goes and does his tasting in March/April AFTER they've closed down. How on earth can a critic rate wines that are closed?
I think you are way oversimplifying the wine making process. I think farming is more the exact science, meaning if you have good weather, you should have good grapes. Once that is out of the way, the winemaker takes over and does his/her thing, but I think there is always some finger crossing once the wine goes into the barrels, if not before. And I’m not saying they are worried the wine is going to be bad, but is it going to be special, legendary, etc. A winery/winemaker should be judged on their body of work, not just on one vintage. And the difference between 96 pts and 100 pts is not that big of a deal unless you are trying to flip, which I’m not. I would love some of the winemakers on these forums to chime in on this. Oh and I don’t think Parker intended to taste out of the bottle this late, he had some medical issues that stopped him from getting out there sooner. |
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| Posts: 2180 | Location: OC, CA (Currently in London) | Registered: Aug 01, 2007 | |
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Can anyone hook me up with Bob's scores on the following?: Ch Margaux Ch Haut Brion Leoville Barton Monbrison Pavillon Rouge Malescot Haut Bailly Villhardy Lascombes Brane Cantenac Palmer Would like to record them. Thanks!!!
"The 8th grade was the best four years of my life".
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| Posts: 77 | Location: Charlotte, North Carolina | Registered: Dec 31, 2007 | |
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I guess i look at this differently than some. I think Parkers scores help someone like me out, the wine drinker. If this puts a cap on the escalating price or even lowers it a bit, it will allow me to "bottom feed" if you will. Whether something recieved a 93 instead of a 96 is it going to change your drinking experience? I guess it could change the value of the wine, but if you are going to drink it anyways, who the hell cares?
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