Originally posted by ChrisR: Maybe I'm an optimist, but I believe greater interest, purchasing power and demand for better wine will benefit the consumer in the long run.
To do that there is a lot of work to do. The biggest hurdle is to cut through all the snobbery and negative stereotypes that are attached to "wine" as a global brand. There is an intimidation factor or a "not for me" response that needs to be overcome by the casual or uninformed wine drinker. Finally someone is out there dispelling myths and encouraging people to have confidence in their own tasting abilities and opinions about wine.
I am happy that someone like Gary is around that understands the contemporary wine movement. The wine world is changing a lot faster than I think people realize. The world is getting smaller via media and I'm thankful that he's at the forefront helping to lead the charge.
That was a very good first post.
Paul Romero (tlily)- Owner, Winemaker, Tour Guide Stefania Wine http://www.stefaniawine.com
Posts: 5726 | Location: San Jose | Registered: May 24, 2002
I am happy that someone like Gary is around that understands the contemporary wine movement.
ChrisR,
Interesting post.
Could you expound on the understands the contemporary wine movement statement?
w+a
I think its the waiting list at Ghost Horse World.
But seriously, words like "movement," attitudes like the people over at X are Y, etc. are for politics, and even then they are often trite.
People need not be snobby. When they are, they can be easily ignored, because it is, after all, only wine and not social security or health care. I really see no need to start joining movements and forming groups.
Could you expound on the understands the contemporary wine movement statement?
w+a
I think its the waiting list at Ghost Horse World.
But seriously, words like "movement," attitudes like the people over at X are Y, etc. are for politics, and even then they are often trite.
People need not be snobby. When they are, they can be easily ignored, because it is, after all, only wine and not social security or health care. I really see no need to start joining movements and forming groups.
The 'movement', is against Ghost Horse's schtick, which is the most extreme form of a wine marketing mantra that started when Robert slugged Peter and reached it's peek, well now.
Calling it a movement, may be a bit much, but the marketplace is shifting. It's getting younger, female, and cares less about ratings, luxury appeal, and 'power'.
My mailing list is over 40% female, and probably 60% under 40. (From what I can tell) That demographic would shock most Napa mailing lists. Honestly I don't know how it happened, but it's not what one would expect. Something is changing, and consumers are looking for new and different voices, who connect better with them and why they drink wine.
Paul Romero (tlily)- Owner, Winemaker, Tour Guide Stefania Wine http://www.stefaniawine.com
Posts: 5726 | Location: San Jose | Registered: May 24, 2002
Originally posted by Stefania Wine: The 'movement', is against Ghost Horse's schtick, which is the most extreme form of a wine marketing mantra that started when Robert slugged Peter and reached it's peek, well now.
Calling it a movement, may be a bit much, but the marketplace is shifting. It's getting younger, female, and cares less about ratings, luxury appeal, and 'power'.
My mailing list is over 40% female, and probably 60% under 40. (From what I can tell) That demographic would shock most Napa mailing lists. Honestly I don't know how it happened, but it's not what one would expect. Something is changing, and consumers are looking for new and different voices, who connect better with them and why they drink wine.
ok. to be clear, whatever the "modern wine movement" is, it would seem to have little, if anything, in common with Ghost Horse World. While I don't think there's anything to fret over with GHW, I'd rather pop a bottle or two with this movement thing, including a bottle of this Bordeaux gary's pushing.
My point was that whether you call your version of a hobby a movement or whether you sell (albeit partly facetiously) the privilege to "belong," both of this is too clubby for my tastes, too us vs. them. People can almost be snobbish about how much they are not snobs.
That wine demographics are changing is great. It makes sense that retail shops and wineries would cater to that in their merchandising and marketing. But to speak of this as a movement, to me, misses the point.
I'm rambling. I've just never been a joiner. I don't trust movements on grave, nobel-prize things, much less something so perfectly enjoyable as a glass of wine.
Originally posted by Stefania Wine: Nope, purchases are about 40/60 also. I don't know about consumption in detail, but it also seems to be about 40/60.
We would fit in that 40% probably, as I think MLV is technically on the list and I am just the mailing address/recipient/ guy who gets to haul all the wine home.
Posts: 2704 | Location: South Florida | Registered: Dec 30, 2002
Originally posted by -Cp: Who seems to match your PALette (in regards to their scores/recommendations) better? Gary or Robert?
All of the reasons why Gary's not really a critic have been beaten to death here ad nauseum, so I have nothing to add there.
But, he does score wines on the 100 point scale, so on that basis alone the question is a fair one. But kind of a weird one, because the number of wines Gary has scored is so tiny compared to Parker. He hasn't (yet) provided a big enough data set to be meaningful. I've tasted only a handful of wines that have GV ratings, versus a great number of wines with Parker ratings.
But more importantly, I respect both gentlemen for completely different reasons. For me, Parker's a "conclusions" guy and Gary's a "process" guy.
With Parker, it's all about his ultimate conclusions about wines. His scores are reliable (albeit in some regions more than others). I don't spend tons of time reading his prose, I go straight to the scores.
Gary's scores - his bottom line conclusions - mean nothing to me. But I'm a big fan of his show, though, because watching it lets me engage in the whole process of tasting & evaluating wine. I think Gary is providing educational value above and beyond his role as a mere salesman. Yet I would never call him a "critic" - he doesn't come anywhere close to meeting the professional definition of one.
So, I watch almost every WLTV show. But I almost never refer to the WLTV score spreadsheet.
Posts: 1898 | Location: L.A. | Registered: Mar 02, 2005
Originally posted by -Cp: Who seems to match your PALette (in regards to their scores/recommendations) better? Gary or Robert?
All of the reasons why Gary's not really a critic have been beaten to death here ad nauseum, so I have nothing to add there.
But, he does score wines on the 100 point scale, so on that basis alone the question is a fair one. But kind of a weird one, because the number of wines Gary has scored is so tiny compared to Parker. He hasn't (yet) provided a big enough data set to be meaningful. I've tasted only a handful of wines that have GV ratings, versus a great number of wines with Parker ratings.
But more importantly, I respect both gentlemen for completely different reasons. For me, Parker's a "conclusions" guy and Gary's a "process" guy.
With Parker, it's all about his ultimate conclusions about wines. His scores are reliable (albeit in some regions more than others). I don't spend tons of time reading his prose, I go straight to the scores.
Gary's scores - his bottom line conclusions - mean nothing to me. But I'm a big fan of his show, though, because watching it lets me engage in the whole process of tasting & evaluating wine. I think Gary is providing educational value above and beyond his role as a mere salesman. Yet I would never call him a "critic" - he doesn't come anywhere close to meeting the professional definition of one.
So, I watch almost every WLTV show. But I almost never refer to the WLTV score spreadsheet.
Don't tell SS Chris, he'll be crushed!
I like your thoughts on the matter and they make sense. You can call Gary whatever you want, and many have, but the bottom line is he critiques wine, and people listen.
Originally posted by Stefania Wine: I took it exactly opposite.
The 'movement', is against Ghost Horse's schtick, which is the most extreme form of a wine marketing mantra that started when Robert slugged Peter and reached it's peek, well now.
Calling it a movement, may be a bit much, but the marketplace is shifting. It's getting younger, female, and cares less about ratings, luxury appeal, and 'power'.
My mailing list is over 40% female, and probably 60% under 40. (From what I can tell) That demographic would shock most Napa mailing lists. Honestly I don't know how it happened, but it's not what one would expect. Something is changing, and consumers are looking for new and different voices, who connect better with them and why they drink wine.
Maybe I should have said the "movement" in the wine market? Who knew every word would be dissected with such intensity?
But seriously, I believe there is a shift in attitudes toward wine. I think your comment above regarding power, luxury, legacy, speaks to exactly what I'm trying to get at. There's a demo shift, a perception shift (people now feel it's okay to tailgate at a football game with wine instead of beer). That is a significant social shift. Wine is shedding some of its stereotyping and is being embraced by a lot more people. With this kind of "movement" or social shift, comes a need for "ambassadors" that embrace this ideology and keep pushing it forward.
The quality of wine is also improving which means you don't have to buy expensive wine to get good wine anymore and regional dominance over varietals isn't what it used to be. You don't have to look to Burgundy, Oregon or California to get great Pinot Noir. You can find it in New Zealand now. I can buy Chateau Musar instead of Chateau Margaux because not only is great wine being made elsewhere, its accessible. We are no longer have to depend on the local liquor store because you can find wine online from around the globe. Amazon.com is starting to sell wine. Wine is starting to hit critical mass and that means change.
Posts: 6 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: Mar 06, 2008
I think seven pages of debate should suffice for the Parker v. Vaynerchuk thread, and welcome to the Wine Spectator Forums to all those who signed up to participate.
Have a good weekend everyone,
RT
Posts: 256 | Location: New York | Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Don't tell SS Chris, he'll be crushed!
