How big should a cellar be?

I know, I know. I've read the prior posts (usually when someone is buying a refridgeration unit of some kind). Everyone says it's never big enough. But I'm talking "cellar". And I don't mean the physical dimensions, but rather the # of bottles you can store.

I have been pondering the issue as I'm considering moving and the cellar size at the new location has become a topic of conversation/consternation.

As the answer will vary from wino to wino (I mean forumite to forumite), allow me to place some parameters on the discussion. Let's assume that Mrs. Notawinebrat and I drink, gift or otherwise share about 325 bottles a year. We are also assuming that we would generally like to buy wines at or near release and not drink them until they begin to mature. Further assume that 275 of the 325 bottles are red and that most of the white wines (except for some rieslings) will be consumed very young - hence not much of a storage need there. Of the reds, assume about a third pinot noir, a third cab or blend, and a third of other (dominated by syrah and a variety of italian grapes, but with lots of other varietals and regions).

What's scaring me is that as I try to do the math, probaby about 150 bottles a year should have a little dust on them (recognizing that there are quite a few days we just grab an every day drinker). A couple of years for some and quite a bit more for others. I'm worried I need space for 1500 bottles!!

Any of you ever figure this out?

GAHHH!!! Too early on Sunday, my head's spinning. How about this: If you start to run out of wine, buy more. If your cellar starts to overflow, buy less.

notawinebrat-
despite your detailed calculations and the considerable thought you have put into this question, I'm afraid that it is impossible to give a concrete answer. Of the bottles that you will store for some length of time, some will stay in the cellar longer than others. All the while, more bottles will be coming in. How about not storing the wines that will be consumed within a year in the cellar? I know that sounds silly, but isn't the purpose of a cellar to provide conditions for aging? I kind of agree with indybob- play it by ear!

What region are your Cabernets, Pinots and Syrahs from?

I'm in a similar situation, except that I have an 8'x8' space to work with. I'm putting in counter height, double deep case bins on 2 walls with std racks on top of the counter.
As well, I'm putting in raking for about 50 Champagne/Port bttls and the same for splits. I'm also sacrificing some wall space to for a Large format display.
The rest is all std. bottle racks with a display slot and a single width diamond bin for daily drinking stock. This will give me storage for about 1000 bttls in ttl.
One thing to keep in mind, beware of some racking as it only holds bordeaux type bttls. Wider Burgundy type bttls won't fit. My storage stratagy is to put all the long term wine in the lower case/bulk bins, near to current consumption in the racks, and daily drinkers in the diamond bins and remaining singles in my 30 bttl grotto in the kitchen. When my futures come in, they go down below and then I move older wines up to the single racks from there. This way my wine only gets moved once or twice before its ready to drink.
All in all, unless you have a large area and/or huge budget, install racking that is somewhat versitile. I've seen cellars that are almost entirly diamond bins. Doesn't look that great (IMHO) but it gives you the greatest flexibility.
Cellar tracker helps me keep track of what is where and drinking windows.

Hope this helps and let me know how it works out.

quote:

Originally posted by wineismylife:
What region are your Cabernets, Pinots and Syrahs from?

I'm confused.

Are there great Cabs, Pinots or Syrahs not from France?

quote:

Originally posted by wine+art:

quote:

Originally posted by wineismylife:
What region are your Cabernets, Pinots and Syrahs from?

I'm confused.

Are there great Cabs, Pinots or Syrahs not from France?

He didn't say "great" thus the reason for my question.

indybob, while I like your attitude ("if you start to run out...buy more. If...overflow....buy less"), I don't think I can easily find (or want to pay for) 10+ year old cabernets. I'm really just trying to get a sense from the group how big a cellar I'll need to support my addiction.

malbecmaniac, I agree that a concrete answer is impossible to give. Nevertheless, I do need to pick a size for the cellar. 1,000? 2,000? more? While I will make purchases "by ear", once constructed, the cellar's size will be fixed. Too small and I'll be bummed. Larger = more expensive and uses up space. I will err on the larger side (but hopefully not excessively so).

wineismylife, most of the cabs are from Napa, but the # from france (cabs/meritage) is increasing (funny how that works). A small amount of Burgundy, but most of the Pinots are RRV and like Oregon (and will be buying more). Most of Syrah's are from CA.

PatrickinKW, thanks.

I've always found this clarity of thinking to be sidetracked by the art of drinking

You haven't mentioned:

1. Your age. How long do you plan on drinking? Do you want your cellar to outlast you, etc?

2. What are you doing now? How does your existing inventory fit in?

3. How much do you plan to spend on this hobby? Is this going to interfere with any other long term plans, like education for children?

Not to mention depth and width of cellar, and I don't mean size but rather:

Depth: how many of each bottle to try over the years to see evolve.

Width: How many Bordeaux, Rhone, Madiran, Brunello, Super Tuscans, Australians, etc..

It's a crap shoot also, will you still like those types in 10-15 years or more...

My system: Buy what you like now and hope for the best and that you got good advice along the way !

That been said, my cellar is now full and I have to find a way to make it bigger.. Luckily for me it is a strictly functional cellar and all I have to do is move a wall.

quote:

Originally posted by notawinebrat:
indybob, while I like your attitude ("if you start to run out...buy more. If...overflow....buy less"), I don't think I can easily find (or want to pay for) 10+ year old cabernets. I'm really just trying to get a sense from the group how big a cellar I'll need to support my addiction.

malbecmaniac, I agree that a concrete answer is impossible to give. Nevertheless, I do need to pick a size for the cellar. 1,000? 2,000? more? While I will make purchases "by ear", once constructed, the cellar's size will be fixed. Too small and I'll be bummed. Larger = more expensive and uses up space. I will err on the larger side (but hopefully not excessively so).

wineismylife, most of the cabs are from Napa, but the # from france (cabs/meritage) is increasing (funny how that works). A small amount of Burgundy, but most of the Pinots are RRV and like Oregon (and will be buying more). Most of Syrah's are from CA.

PatrickinKW, thanks.

Let me rephrase slightly. What is your DESIRED cellar in those areas? Do you want 100% Bordeaux? 100% California Cabernet? 50/50%? Same question for the other varietals.

In addition, assuming you want 50% Bordeaux and 50% California Cabernet by way of example how much of each of those do you want to be First Growths/California Cults, 2nd Growths/Premium California Cabernet, etc...?

Believe it or not I'm going someplace with this.

quote:

Originally posted by notawinebrat:
I'm worried I need space for 1500 bottles!!

Any of you ever figure this out?

If you're already thinking that one day you will have 1500 bottles, then I can guarantee you one thing: you will eventually run out of space.

There's a wierd anomaly once you start collecting wine: it doesn't matter how big the cellar is, you'll continue buying even when you don't have room for any more, and you'll become very good at somehow finding additional space. It's the challenge we all accept.

Tanglenet,

You asked:

1. Your age. 49 How long do you plan on drinking? UNTIL BED TIME - OH, YOU MEAN YEARS...HOPEFULLY ANOTHER 30+. Do you want your cellar to outlast you, etc? I'M NOT THINKING ABOUT DISPOSITIVE INTENT, BUT IT WOULDNT BE THE END OF THE WORLD IF I LEFT SOME WINE FOR THE RUG RATS.

2. What are you doing now? DRINKING AND WATCHING NFL FOOTBALL. ?? COULDNT RESIST. I HAVE ABOUT 800 BOTTLES. STARTED ABOUT 5 YEARS AGO. FINDING THAT I'VE ALREADY CONSUMED MOST OF THE 2000 NAPA CABS AND AM TRYING LIKE HECK TO HOLD OFF ON THE 1999'S. NOTHING OLDER UNLESS IT WAS A GIFT OR CELLAR RELEASE. How does your existing inventory fit in? I'LL BE BOXING AND MOVING IT WITH ME.

3. How much do you plan to spend on this hobby? Is this going to interfere with any other long term plans, like education for children? IT IS A HOBBY I CAN AFFORD.

WINEISMYLIFE, YOU ASKED:

"Let me rephrase slightly. What is your DESIRED cellar in those areas? Do you want 100% Bordeaux? 100% California Cabernet? 50/50%? Same question for the other varietals." I AM EDUCATIONALLY DEFICIENT IN THE BORDEAUX ARENA. I AM BUYING A FEW FIRST GROWTHS (TO MARK SPECIAL DATES OR FOR SPECIAL EVENTS DOWN THE ROAD), AND A FEW MORE SECOND+ GROWTHS, BUT NOT NEARLY COMPARABLE TO THE NAPA CABS. I HOPE TO LEARN MORE AND THAT COULD IMPACT MY BUYING DECISIONS DOWN THE ROAD. LETS ASSUME 25% OF THE CELLAR WILL BE NAPA CAB, AND SOMETHING UNDER 10% BORDEAUX. A THIRD PINOT, SPLIT BETWEEN MOSTLY WEST COAST WITH SOME BURGUNDY. THE BALANCE = SYRAH AND A VARIETY OF MOSTLY ITALIAN (I DO LIKE BAROLO...)

In addition, assuming you want 50% Bordeaux and 50% California Cabernet by way of example how much of each of those do you want to be First Growths/California Cults, 2nd Growths/Premium California Cabernet, etc...? COST ALONE WILL KEEP 1ST GROWTHS TO A MODEST AMOUNT. PROBABLY HAVE ABOUT 2 OR 3 CASES TOTAL OF 1ST GROWTH AND DONT SEE ME INCREASING THIS NUMBER SIGNIFICANTLY. WOULD LOVE TO LEARN TO FIND SOME GOOD STUFF IN THE $30-$50 RANGE, BUT JUST HAVENT GOTTEN THAT FAR IN THE EDUCATION. MOST OF THE CALI CABS THAT I HAVE ARE IN THE $30 TO $50 RANGE WITH A FAIR NUMBER HIGHER. HAVING JUST LOOKED AT WHAT I WROTE THOUGH, I DONT WANT TO SOUND LIKE I DRINK THAT STUFF EVERY DAY. VINOME IS STILL MY HERO WITH HIS AVERAGE DAILY PRICE AT WELL UNDER $20.

Believe it or not I'm going someplace with this. HOPE I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTIONS.

notawinebrat,

This is VERY ROUGH based on what you've told me so far but my first guess is you'll ultimately need a cellar close to 2,500 bottles.

WIML---Excellent guess, and I agree with the 2500 bottles, and might even go to 3000!

notawinebrat Now you have to determine your allocation. How many 750's, Mags, OWC's, half bottles, Champagne, Display, etc. How much space do you have. Where will you locate your cellar? Give some additional info. I've have had three cellars, and I'm still trying to get it completely right!

quote:

Originally posted by latour67:
WIML---Excellent guess, and I agree with the 2500 bottles, and might even go to 3000!

It probably is closer to 3,000 but I did my calculations based strictly on what he said he'd like to cellar, how many bottles a year he'd like to consume or give away, etc... The reality of the situation is that it's very rare that anybody is as narrowly focused in their cellar composition that he's proposing. It's much more likely that there will be anywhere from 1-2 cases of odds and sods from around the world always sitting in there pushing the total closer to 3,000 ultimately.

btw notawinebrat...do you have a digital camera? Please take a picture of your wife's face when you tell her not 1 but 2 people that have done this no less than 3 times each told you it needs to be a minimum of 2,500 bottles. I'd like you to post the picture afterwards.

quote:

Originally posted by wineismylife:
btw notawinebrat...do you have a digital camera? Please take a picture of your wife's face when you tell her not 1 but 2 people that have done this no less than 3 times each told you it needs to be a minimum of 2,500 bottles. I'd like you to post the picture afterwards.

wineismylife you don't do retirement plans do you??

Curious how you came to 2,500 bottles??

quote:

Originally posted by khmark7:
wineismylife you don't do retirement plans do you??

Curious how you came to 2,500 bottles??

The only retirement plans I've done were for my mother (who passed away in 1999, here's to you Mom) and myself. Both grew/grown.

Pretty simple. Take how many bottles you plan on consuming per year. Next calculate what percentages of each wine you'd like to cellar (i.e. called a Cellar Plan). Multiply that times how many you want to consume per year and then multiply that times the average number of years you need to cellar said wine and you end up with the total number of bottles you need to cellar to supply your desired annual consumption rate.

wineismylife, I am literally laughing out loud right now having read your post.

Well, that was after crying about the 2,500 bottles. And Latour67 isn't helping matters much.

Seriously though...I had a feeling I was thinking too small and I really wanted to hear from some in the forum. I appreciate the comments about "narrow", but I was trying to keep this simple. I can see the problem brewing in my cellar now. 800 bottles. Could hold some more at this house. But I'm trying to figure out how to not dig in to the wines that many on these boards would say are "young". So I am literally pushed out the door to get some every day drinkers to avoid opening some stuff that I know (or believe) will improve. I was guessing 1500, but I fear that wineismylife is probably right about the bigger number.

Mrs. notawinebrat would probably kill me if I posted a picture of her on the forum, but I promise I'll make my way to a Texas off-line and bring both her and the picture. (by the way, I didnt mention this, but Texas is our likely destination. No basements in Texas (that I've seen). That's why this has become a bit of an issue for me. We are talking about using up first floor space for this little addiction....).

One thing to remember though...it's a marathon, not a sprint. You're in no hurry. Just figure out a cellar plan (i.e. where you want your cella