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Originally posted by elmo:
Sacredcrow, I recall the winemaker of Mount Mary did not want RP to taste any of his wines and had been critical about some of his ratings of certain wines. Parker did eventually taste several of Mount Mary's wines, none of which scored over 80 points.There was an interesting thread on the squires board a few years ago dealing with this issue.

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Originally posted by NY Retailer:

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Originally posted by TORB:
FYI, Mollydooker sold their entire 2007 vintage in three days. That was both the quantity allocated via their website, and the amount set aside for wholesalers.

I have to call BS on this one, Ric. Who is your source? I was on the MD mailing list and I saw emails one per month over the past two years doing promos to attempt to sell backlogs of wine.

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Originally posted by jburman82:
Ric, I just went on their website and they have the 2007 Scooter, Two Left feet, Blue Eyed Boy, Enchanted Path, Carnivale of Love and Velvet Glove listed for sale.

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Originally posted by Sticky2:
Pricing alone does not determine a cult, plus, the definition has never been strict.

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Originally posted by Stevey:

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Originally posted by Sticky2:
Pricing alone does not determine a cult, plus, the definition has never been strict.

I don't think anyone is saying high prices alone determines cult status; however, as it's generally accepted that high demand and scarcity are cult attributes, then implicitly pricing must be impacted in an open market. There is no strictly accepted definition of cult but by most definitions, unreasonably high price is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition of a wine being cult. The best definition I found was from an article from Robb Report a few years back:

"The transubstantiation of wine to cult wine begins with desire, which is typically catalyzed by a prominent critic’s granting the wine in question a score that approaches or achieves three digits. The pulses of collectors immediately quicken, their palms itch, salivary glands activate. It does not matter to them whether they have heard of the wine, whether it has a history, a track record, or a provenance; nor does it matter that, straight from the cellar, it commands stratospheric prices, and that demand has conferred upon it instant rarity."

As far as I'm aware, this does not and nor has it ever described Penfolds Grange.

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Originally posted by Stevey:

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Originally posted by Sticky2:
Pricing alone does not determine a cult, plus, the definition has never been strict.

I don't think anyone is saying high prices alone determines cult status; however, as it's generally accepted that high demand and scarcity are cult attributes, then implicitly pricing must be impacted in an open market. There is no strictly accepted definition of cult but by most definitions, unreasonably high price is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition of a wine being cult. The best definition I found was from an article from Robb Report a few years back:

"The transubstantiation of wine to cult wine begins with desire, which is typically catalyzed by a prominent critic’s granting the wine in question a score that approaches or achieves three digits. The pulses of collectors immediately quicken, their palms itch, salivary glands activate. It does not matter to them whether they have heard of the wine, whether it has a history, a track record, or a provenance; nor does it matter that, straight from the cellar, it commands stratospheric prices, and that demand has conferred upon it instant rarity."

As far as I'm aware, this does not and nor has it ever described Penfolds Grange.

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Originally posted by wine+art:

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Originally posted by Stevey:

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Originally posted by Sticky2:
Pricing alone does not determine a cult, plus, the definition has never been strict.

I don't think anyone is saying high prices alone determines cult status; however, as it's generally accepted that high demand and scarcity are cult attributes, then implicitly pricing must be impacted in an open market. There is no strictly accepted definition of cult but by most definitions, unreasonably high price is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition of a wine being cult. The best definition I found was from an article from Robb Report a few years back:

"The transubstantiation of wine to cult wine begins with desire, which is typically catalyzed by a prominent critic’s granting the wine in question a score that approaches or achieves three digits. The pulses of collectors immediately quicken, their palms itch, salivary glands activate. It does not matter to them whether they have heard of the wine, whether it has a history, a track record, or a provenance; nor does it matter that, straight from the cellar, it commands stratospheric prices, and that demand has conferred upon it instant rarity."

As far as I'm aware, this does not and nor has it ever described Penfolds Grange.

Stevey, completely agree.

I can walk into any serious wine store in Dallas today and buy Grange, thus clearly not a cult status wine. Furthermore, standard discounts apply on these wines.

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Originally posted by NY Retailer:
2001 Quintet...from Parker...I wonder if this was "taste(d) blind whenever possible."

The proprietor of Mount Mary has never wanted me to taste his wines, which are revered by segments of the Australian press, but with some stealth work, I was able to secure a few vintages...The attempt appears to be to emulate a Bordeaux petit chateau, but none were as fine, being lean, high in acid, austere, and meagerly endowed. They will not improve with age...It is difficult to understand what merit these wines possess.

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Originally posted by Sticky2:
That definition is based basically on Parker's influence and the dot.com bubble pushing up prices. Basically, it would mean there could be no cult's before the Parkerization of wine. Is that true?

No, it is not. I would argue Grange is the original Aussie cult as it does command a stratospheric price. You are blaming it for not being expensive in the 50's? Seriously? It was a low release, side project, that only the most serious wine guys even knew about. How about the fact that an early 50's release sold for over 50k at auction? Sounds like that is more demand than even the top Cali "cults". What price does it command now after the wine world caught up?

That is the original Aussie cult and it simply fits a different definition for a different time.

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Originally posted by Stevey:

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Originally posted by Sticky2:
That definition is based basically on Parker's influence and the dot.com bubble pushing up prices. Basically, it would mean there could be no cult's before the Parkerization of wine. Is that true?

No, it is not. I would argue Grange is the original Aussie cult as it does command a stratospheric price. You are blaming it for not being expensive in the 50's? Seriously? It was a low release, side project, that only the most serious wine guys even knew about. How about the fact that an early 50's release sold for over 50k at auction? Sounds like that is more demand than even the top Cali "cults". What price does it command now after the wine world caught up?

That is the original Aussie cult and it simply fits a different definition for a different time.

When did the early 50's release of Grange sold for $50K? If it sold for that much in the 50's when Grange didn't yet have a track record, then, yes, I would agree Grange was at cult status in the 50's. However, if it sold for $50K today (or recently), then it's because Grange has earned its 50 year of excellent reputation as a darn good wine and does not give indication that it was ever cult.

In any case, I wasn't around in the '50s so I'll take your word that Grange was cult by the definition of that time. But, then again, by your definition, why weren't many classified Bordeaux at one time cult as well? Or maybe it was and I'm too young to know.

In any case, I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one.

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Originally posted by Aussie:

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Originally posted by NY Retailer:
2001 Quintet...from Parker...I wonder if this was "taste(d) blind whenever possible."

The proprietor of Mount Mary has never wanted me to taste his wines, which are revered by segments of the Australian press, but with some stealth work, I was able to secure a few vintages...The attempt appears to be to emulate a Bordeaux petit chateau, but none were as fine, being lean, high in acid, austere, and meagerly endowed. They will not improve with age...It is difficult to understand what merit these wines possess.

Just as Middleton (and I) wonder what merit Parker's palate possesses. What venom from the criticised critic. Impartial my arse!

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Originally posted by stickman:

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Originally posted by Aussie:

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Originally posted by NY Retailer:
2001 Quintet...from Parker...I wonder if this was "taste(d) blind whenever possible."

The proprietor of Mount Mary has never wanted me to taste his wines, which are revered by segments of the Australian press, but with some stealth work, I was able to secure a few vintages...The attempt appears to be to emulate a Bordeaux petit chateau, but none were as fine, being lean, high in acid, austere, and meagerly endowed. They will not improve with age...It is difficult to understand what merit these wines possess.

Just as Middleton (and I) wonder what merit Parker's palate possesses. What venom from the criticised critic. Impartial my arse!

'Just a friendly point to mitigate the perception of 'venom' from Parker: If you look at Harvey Steiman's reviews, he's never given Quintet more than 90 points on release. His 93- and 97-point reviews were retrospectives. Parker may resent what John Middleton expressed about his palate or influence, but I believe that his 88-point review was a genuine opinion - not just retribution for criticism.

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How many pricey "cult" Aussie Shiraz never get exported? And, do they ever create the buzz (and auction value) that something like Screaming Eagle has in the U.S., pre-recession of course?