What about the role of Syrah in a vintage like 2007? I find there's more of it in the Cote du Rhone wines in 07 and perhaps the same is to be said for CdP? I've been thinking that it's the Syrah influence that I've so enjoyed in the CdR wines or perhaps it's just the ripeness that is so scrumptious.
******* Not looking good for next year either.
Posts: 4564 | Location: Chicago | Registered: May 24, 2002
Originally posted by James Molesworth: Keeno: Hard to compare '07 to another vintage - it is unique. Maybe '89 in terms of ripeness? But they are far more uniform and accessible right out of the gate.
The '07s will develop the garrigue/tobacco notes down the road - but I don't think they'll be as pronounced as in vintages like '05, '01, '98. The '07s will always be marked by their precocious fruit and I think ultimately they'll age on a slightly faster track because of it, as '00 has done vis a vis '98 for example.
Thanks James.
Posts: 1622 | Location: NC | Registered: May 01, 2007
Grossie: Syrah isn't as important as Mourvèdre IMO. Autard uses %50 in his Cote Ronde cuvée - but few producers use more than %5, if that. It performs well pretty much year in and year out, giving violet aromas and deep color, with some grip. But it's not a stand out varietal in great years...
At this point I'm sure he knows that his words move the market. But he's a critic. If he likes the wines, he's not supposed to say so? Or is he supposed to decide that since people pay attention to him, he should retire? Or should he claim to like wines that he despises? How can he possibly be blamed if producers decide to make wine that has less brett and cleaner, riper fruit? What would you have him do?
Every single producer and every single customer makes his or her own decision. In a theater people are worried for their lives, but nobody absolutely has to buy wine and nobody has to change production methods.
Incidentally I agree with you about the 100 points and that's why I haven't purchased a single 2007 CdP, nor at the moment, do I have any plans to. I've tasted enough of them to be satisfied with that decision. I'm not sure what's behind his constant hype of the vintage.
Posts: 801 | Location: NY | Registered: Dec 09, 2007
I opened two 2007 CDR's tonight for our Halloween party. All in attendance are wine lovers, but not "geeks". The wines were Domaine les Grands Bois cuvee Gabrielle and Maximilien. While they were quite ripe, they held their ground and were not over-the-top.
But...the biggest criticism/comments, from everyone, was they couldn't believe these were French wines? They thought for sure I was pouring a CA wine. The fruit was so lush, sweet, and round. And, they "went down easy". There is a uniformity to this style, or vintage character...whatever you want to call it. For me...it just doesn't grab my interest.
When I think ripe, Rhone, and classic...I think 1989 Beaucastel. A STUNNING wine. These are not in that league....
I opened two 2007 CDP's tonight for our Halloween party. All in attendance are wine lovers, but not "geeks". The wines were Domaine les Grands Bois cuvee Gabrielle and Maximilien.
I believe he's referring to the Côtes du Rhône too, but I think I get his gist.
It's the style and almost sheer uniformity of the vintage that is its undoing for some people. Quality-wise 2007 can't be denied, but with so many wines showing the same profile, I can see some people not being 'wowed' by it. That's why I am highlighting the cuvées with significant Mourvèdre percentages - you can read more in my report now in the current Nov 30 issue. (Here's the free listing of the 1,000+ wines I reviewed for the report.)
Perhaps down the road, we'll compare '07 southern Rhône to '82 Bordeaux. So flattering and so very, very homogeneous out of the gate. Long term though, many more '82 Bdx fell by the wayside than people cared to admit IMO...I think we'll see this with a lot of the Côtes du Rhône/CdR-Villages level wines that right now are 'lifting' the vintage for some folks. While expressive and powerful now because of their fruit they're not going to be any longer lived or more dynamic with age just because of that fruit - they'll still age on their usual track.
Hey James-- quick question about the 07 Mon Aieul. I've tasted it twice, once from barrel and once from bottle. The barrel sample completely blew me away with its heady aromatics and its dazzling performance on the palate... But the bottle sample that I had last week, while excellent, was nowhere near that level of brilliance. Do you think that the wine in bottle will ever return to its initial glory from barrel?
That list you linked, with all of your scores, was incredibly refreshing. I think you are FAR more reasonable, and down to earth with what you are reporting on and scoring. Power and intensity are not the only redeeming aspects to a wine, and I think you put the whole picture into perspective better than any other Rhone critic right now. Keep up the good work, and thanks for the knowledgeable and thoughtfully good discussion and debate here.
Cheers
So much wine.....so little time!!!
Posts: 6824 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002
Originally posted by dr.darkrichandbold: I opened two 2007 CDR's tonight for our Halloween party. All in attendance are wine lovers, but not "geeks". The wines were Domaine les Grands Bois cuvee Gabrielle and Maximilien. While they were quite ripe, they held their ground and were not over-the-top.
When I think ripe, Rhone, and classic...I think 1989 Beaucastel. A STUNNING wine. These are not in that league....
DRAB- I loved the Maximillien, and enjoyed the Gabrielle however I found that the rhone character didn't come out in the Max until the bottle had either been decanted for >8 hours or opened for 2+ days! Check my note here. I felt the same way as your group at first- this is a good wine, but is it Rhone? It took time to develop any nuance, but once it did it knocked my socks off.
To me this makes this vintage very promising. Maybe I'm over-calling it, but if a <$20 wine can show that kind of density and character (and I've found many that have) then it seems to me like this is a vintage to be reckoned with.
Vis-a-vis the 89 Beaucastel, I'm assuming you didn't drink that wine in 1991 to make this a valid comparison. Also, to compare Beaucastel with a $17 Cairanne isn't quite fair.
I'll reiterate- I am a believer in 2007 Southern Rhone. We'll find out over the next 10-20 years who's right.
My latest purchase from the vintage was a Perrin CdR villages for $10 at Costco. After my first one I went back for the case- a very high quality wine for such a low price.
******* Not looking good for next year either.
Posts: 4564 | Location: Chicago | Registered: May 24, 2002
Mark: Ah, welcome to the world of barrel samples. They are almost always thrilling and almost always seem better than the end result. Racking, bottling, travel make even the best wines only %99 of what they were in barrel. It's something that always has to be factored into the equation when judging wines from barrel, and is one reason why I never rate wines from barrel when I am tasting in regions, choosing instead to talk about more of the nuts and bolts of the vineyard, winemaker, etc...
I'll reiterate- I am a believer in 2007 Southern Rhone. We'll find out over the next 10-20 years who's right.
My latest purchase from the vintage was a Perrin CdR villages for $10 at Costco. After my first one I went back for the case- a very high quality wine for such a low price.
Grossie,
It will be for sure very interesting to follow the vintage. I actually believe a lot of wines will not age as well. And I think James comparison with '82 Bdx is a very smart and interesting one.
Let's get together in Provence in 20 years to discuss and drink those '07 Grossie !
__________________________ Show a little faith, there's magic in the night
Posts: 1239 | Location: Chicago | Registered: Sep 05, 2006
DRAB- I loved the Maximillien, and enjoyed the Gabrielle however I found that the rhone character didn't come out in the Max until the bottle had either been decanted for >8 hours or opened for 2+ days!
Grossie....
I've got a quarter bottle of each left from last night. I decided to test your theory. So far...22 hours later....
Cuvee Gabrielle - dark purple in color. Viscous, with long legs, and plenty of glycerin. Notes of black/blueberry syrup, some violet and...that's about all I get. I don't see ANY Rhone here, and I'm trying hard to find it. 89 pts. as a wine. 87 pts. as a Rhone wine?
Cuvee Maximilien - same color...dark purple. The nose here is a bit more complex as well as the palate. Blue/blackberry syrup, crushed rock, violets, toast, and oak. Again...nothing that speaks Rhone to me. This could easily be Australian, Spanish, or Californian? It's ripe, it delivers some concentrated fruit, it's got toast and oak, but, I'm still lost here as far as "Rhone wine". It's attractive wine for a modern palate, but a "great" value Rhone? 91 pts. as a "wine". 88 pts. as a Rhone wine?
Yes...these are under $20. But...there are now a handful of these kind of wines from all over the globe, and they all taste like this. Yes, they are ripe. Yes they have some semblance of balance (although I would argue their ripeness and very low acidity makes them questionable?). I'm just not seeing any sense of place. Which is what I would want to see in a "great vintage".
So much wine.....so little time!!!
Posts: 6824 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002
DRAB- so far you and I are in agreement on the Max. Please read my notes. I tried the Max over 3 nights and it was only on the 3rd night that I thought it showed rhone character. I know you have no intention of conceding anything to me on this, and I fully expected this post, but at least wait the requisite 48 hours before responding. We can settle this in 10-20 years.
As for the analogy to 82 bdx, it might or might not be valid but I know for a fact that not a single person making this argument here tasted 82 bordeaux when it was released. I certainly wasn't old enough and the 3 of you are younger than me (F16, DRAB, and JM)! F16, were you even born then?
Further, it's not like JM has panned 07 while RMP has declared it the vintage of the century. Most of those triple digits awarded by RMP correspond to some pretty good scores/remarks by JM.
You guys can leave the 07 CdPs alone, it's fine with me. I'll take the leftovers.
******* Not looking good for next year either.
Posts: 4564 | Location: Chicago | Registered: May 24, 2002
I know you have no intention of conceding anything to me on this, and I fully expected this post, but at least wait the requisite 48 hours before responding.
I'm approaching this with an open mind. I have no agenda, nor do I benefit in any way from my opinion. It's just my $.02. I'll report again tomorrow, and see if it changes. I'm very open to finding what you did as well.
Just read your note. Sounds like we pretty much agree?
In any case...I'm not bagging these as wines. They'd make very nice weekly drinkers at $15-20. It's just a new world "cookie cutter" style that I find generic and uninspiring. IN fact...Paul Autard's CDR, which I had and it's $10!!:
Originally posted by James Molesworth: Ah, welcome to the world of barrel samples. They are almost always thrilling and almost always seem better than the end result.
Agree 100%! Barrel samples routinely, in my limited experience, rarely exhibit the harshness that can be found in the wines after they are bottled. They tend to be smooth and very fruity. I love them as great fruity drinks, not as the complex wines into which they may develop.
Just one more sip.
Posts: 25027 | Location: NY | Registered: Oct 18, 2001
2007 Dom. Grands Bois Gabrielle - showing quite a bit of it's alcohol tonight on the nose. Not so much on the palate. I'm surprised because this feature usually improves with air? Also far more muted on the nose. No oxidation noted. The palate is more rounded out, but still all dark blue/black fruit pie, oak, and some black pepper showing tonight. Same score and assessment for me. I can't say this is any better...if anything, it's a bit worse, but not by much.
2007 Dom. Grands Bois Maximilien - Wow...this too...much more muted on the nose. Slight Etoh burn in the nose. The only thing I get out of the nose tonight is slight black marking pen, and some alchohol. That's it. The palate is still concentrated with blue/black fruit and some oak and black pepper. More jammy than the Gabrielle, with better concealed/finer tannin, but the parts are showing much more as separate entities tonight. It seems to be starting to come apart. Still this in no way speaks Rhone to me. And, I would say this is also, if anything, a bit worse than last night.
While both are not showing oxidative notes, they seem to be more disjointed and less expressive tonight. What can I say...just my $.02. Not right, not wrong, just what it is...
I'll try again tomorrow night....
So much wine.....so little time!!!
Posts: 6824 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002
My last post on the Grands Bois wines. Hopefully this is an interesting experiment and debate rather than an act of redundancy. In any case...
I think we can meet in the middle. I can't say these ever blossomed into good/great Rhone wines. But...I will say that tonight...75 hours later...these are showing more Rhone character. More red florals, crushed rock, and even more acidity. The Etoh is still showing through, but I must say they've evened out from the modern styled, almost porty, wines they were. And still no major signs of oxidation! I would say they are modern styled wines with a hint of Rhone character; rather than some of the more recent Rhone vintages where I think some great Rhone wines with modern flare have been created (ala, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2004, 2005, 2006).
Cheers!
So much wine.....so little time!!!
Posts: 6824 | Location: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 20, 2002
It's a vintage of slutty Rhones. Some like it like that, others like the exact opposite. I prefer something more elegant and complex - a more cerebral experience - but that's not to say I won't enjoy one of these 2007s when the mood is right.
Posts: 413 | Location: Toronto, ON | Registered: Nov 10, 2008
