In this great era of the internet, most restaurants that have a web site post their menu on-line. I think this is great, and it helps me select restaurants in new cities, or to look into new restaurants in my own city. It really bugs me when they don't post the prices, though. Perhaps they don't want to scare away customers, but it's worse, in my opinion, to sticker-shock them after they get there. Nevertheless, if they don't want to post prices, I guess I sort of understand. Maybe it seems "crass" to discuss prices. I don't agree, but will give the benefit of the doubt to the restaurants.

However, my real beef is when restaurants post their menu with prices on line, but then post their wine list without prices. What's the deal with that? If you're willing to post food prices, why not your wine prices? I can think of no other reason to have such a policy other than the fact that you plan on soaking your customers when they show up, and figure most of your business is not repeat locals. Don't give me any phoney-baloney line about not wanting to list prices because they can change, because that is true for food too, and you can always put the disclaimer that prices are subject to change. Just be gutsy enough to post your wine price if you post your food price. Are you embarassed to say what you charge? What's next? Are restaurants going to leave the prices of the wines off the real wine list also?

Anyone else noticed this phenomenon, and what do you make of it?

I am the kind of guy who may look at a wine list and if it is too expensive decide I should not go there (if I were in fact going for wine). Now if the food looks good and there is a nice wine list without pricing, I may wonder, but not experience the same shock as looking at wines with 400% markups (I want to say Chez Loma). I suspect they do this for people like me. From a distance I am rational and budget minded. In the moment, I tend to get carried away and say "oh, why not"?

Whats your thoughts on wine lists posted online that do not even remotely resemble what they have on hand at the moment? I think that is even worse, especially if one made plans based on it.

quote:

However, my real beef is when restaurants post their menu with prices on line, but then post their wine list without prices. What's the deal with that?

Because of sheer volume of product vis a vis that of the food menu, product whose price may need adjusting every 6 months. Enormous time spent on-line.
There are alternatives with hand-helds and updating, but so far have proven pricey for most restaurateurs.
However, if it's well kept someone would only need 2-4 hours of company time updating the site every week along with the actual menu.
I think it's vital time, my bosses don't.

I can understand the frustration but,what I have noticed from working for a wine bar that also has a small food menu is the following.

When it comes to food items we can change suppliers when a food related distributor increases prices because there are many suppliers that offer the types of prouducts that we use. It is a different story on the other hand when a wine distributor increases the price of an item. When this happens 99% of the time there is one distributor for this item and we either get it from them or we no longer carry the product.

Yes we can put on the menu that prices are subject to change but you would be surprised at how many people aren't as reasonable as you and have kicked up a fuss. I even know of another restaurant that no longer quotes wine list prices over the phone due to a previous legal suit with a guest. Of course I don't know the details of this situation.

I can't speak for other restaurants on why they don't list wine prices but this is the reason the wine bar I work for dosen't.

quote:

Originally posted by Mishy:
Enormous time spent on-line.

Yeah, it must take hours to type in a few numbers that change every six months.

Don't you have a short version of the wine list for breakfast?

My pet peeve is incorrect vintages.

I'm floored that there isn't a simple to use and cost effective software system out there for a restaurant that would allow the restaurant staff to develop, post and track both menus and wine lists online both inside the restaurant and onto their website. All live and interactive. Unreal.

Personally I find the wine lists posted on websites to often be way out of date when you actually get to the restaurant (and yes, I rarely see prices isted, probably because of the turnover). Since many restaurants typically have a tough time keeping the list on the restaurant floor up to date in the first place, this does not surprise me.

It's a peeve for sure though...especially since the solution seems easy to me - hire an intern who's fired up about wine, and turn him/her loose on your cellar's inventory. If they came in every other day for an hour, you'd have a mistake free list on the floor and website...

quote:

Originally posted by James Molesworth:
Personally I find the wine lists posted on websites to often be way out of date when you actually get to the restaurant

Ditto. That's my biggest pet peeve.

Do restaurants not keep inventory? If so, and posting on-line is important why not go to the system that good on-line retailers have that lists actually quantities and prices?

Agree with Board-O about incorrect vintages. Especially when they list a 97 WHL Reserve but bring you the 98...

I always call first and ask for the wine list to be faxed to me. I have never been turned down. I then decide if I'm bringing my own wine or might buy a bottle on the list. This also allows me to not bring something thats on their wine list.

I concur with Board-O, in that seeing one vintage on-line and getting another in the restaurant just seems like a bait and switch to me.

Dale

My pet peeve is when I don't recognize most of the wines. I ask what's up and they say, oh, we only offer wines that are not available in the store. I then ask why they carry Budweiser . . .or Cocoa-Cola . . . have Caesar salads . . . or the now ubiquitous seared ahi tuna . . . or steaks, which are available for sale at every grocery store in the world. After exposing their snobbery and intellectual dishonesty, I end up having to order some "small boutique producer's" mediocre, overpriced wine to go with the "original, global cuisine." I love to experiment with wine, really experiment, not just try a different Cabernet or chardonnay, but sometimes a bottle of something I know will be great is what's on my mind to drink.

cdr11, you say

"It wouldn't be about me, it would be about my customers."

altruism, without an erection set

you are now a customer, no?

you resent being at the mercy of market forces that are bigger than yourself

me, too

but, i think that your perspective would change once you got on the production side of the equation (restaurant/chateau).

i expect there will always be lies and hucksters

hopefully market votes ($) will sort it out

do you remember the wine crash in the 1970's? (not that simple)

does bigger = better? or pride go before a fall? where is the soul?

or are you really a saint?

because i can't see it from your postings

quote:

Originally posted by cdr11:
not just try a different Cabernet or chardonnay, but sometimes a bottle of something I know will be great is what's on my mind to drink.

I had a very nice Negrette from DeRose last night at Unwined in Almaden.

I concur that restaurants who boast a strong wine presence will have to be more pro-active. I too have dined at very upscale restaurants and perused the list on-line only to find once we order that it is out of stock or the vintage has changed. Yes, I could call ahead but many places don't even answer the phone until 5 p.m. or whenever they open the doors. They will have to respond with due diligence. 3 to 4 hours a week is minimal--I'm sure they can find a college student capable of keeping the on-line inventory up-to-date and if their is a somm, it should be the somm's responsibility; supposedly they create the wine list or have a hand in it, correct?
However, on the other side of the coin---perhaps we are only .02 % of the population and most restauarnt goers really don't give a damn as to what they will drink that evening with their Bloomin' Onion.

or are lost on the list

quote:

Originally posted by Pinot Envy:
most restauarnt goers really don't give a damn as to what they will drink that evening with their Bloomin' Onion.

That was damn funny.

la negrette sounds goods

i looked at the steep vineyard on the derose site... beautiful

is the wine like alicante?

It's pretty obvious nobody's paying attention when the youngest white wine on the list posted on the website is from 1999!

No Vintage dates!!!! what kind of wine list is without vintage dates....as if all wines from a producer are the same!!! shame on them

After much exposure to the industry, if the menu could not be printed in house, then you were making a commitment to the guest that the wine would be available through the life of the menu. Many restaurants do not put vintages for this reason. They are at the mercy of the distributor and if a vintage switches, they have difficulty scooping up the previous vintage. If you care that much about the wine you will choose, then simply care enough to verify its existence with the restaurant manager.
This problem will always exist unless there is a strong wine buyer managing their end of the business.

Hw can someone run a restaurant without a $100 laser printer in the office? There's no excuse for not maintaining the list in house. Blaming the distributors for the problem is just lazy...

... so if they are that lazy about a "list" - what does that make you think about their attention to other details??


DBW

We reprint our BTG and BTB wine lists weekly to properly reflect any price and vintage changes as well as any additions.

We also update our website weekly to reflect these same changes. At one point, our website wine list was always about 2-3 weeks behind our restaurant list as we had to wait for our website designer to update the website for our changes which we forwarded to him. In order to solve this, we now have Macromedia software which enables us to edit our website ourselves, allowing us to update it immediately when changes are made.

We, of course, publish our wine prices on both the website and our restaurant lists. Restaurants are giving customers wine lists without prices? Wow. What a horrible idea. How can you make an informed decision without knowing the price?

quote:

Originally posted by James Molesworth:
Hw can someone run a restaurant without a $100 laser printer in the office? There's no excuse for not maintaining the list in house. Blaming the distributors for the problem is just lazy...

I have my list printed out-of-house because we decided to use oversized 11x17 paper that does not fit our $100 office printer!

People need to be aware that many restaurants do not carry huge stocks of wine, and employ what would generally be known as "just-in-time" inventory, reordering wine as needed. This situation allows small restaurants to offer a wider a selection of wines, but does create the risk of uncontrolled outtages and vintage shifts because they have to rely on wholesaler inventory.

I would imagine that because less money is tied up in inventory, it allows the restaurant to offer their wines at lower cost to the dining public, as well.

That is my situation, at least.