quote:

Originally posted by GregT:
Moreover, although I kind of agree with cdr - I understand the pressures but it's still kind of sad, how necessary are old vines for quality wine anyway? There is a lot of research in this area and aren't the average ages of vines in Bordeaux something like 40 years? They replant fairly regularly don't they? If so, does that mean they're making poor wine?

quote:

Originally posted by GregT:
There is a lot of research in this area and aren't the average ages of vines in Bordeaux something like 40 years? They replant fairly regularly don't they? If so, does that mean they're making poor wine?

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Originally posted by TORB:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter "Vine Master":

When it crosses the ocean, exchanges for the weaker dollar, gets marked up… I’ve never seen Grange under $100 & recently saw it in the $260 range! Of course I’ve never bought it, as I have never had a car with less than 100,000 Miles & fewer than 9 years old. I am not trying to get rich but would like a third bedroom so my little boy & girl could have separate rooms.

Peter,

I never said Grange was $100 a bottle. (That sounds aggressive - its not intended.) Its more expensive in Oz than in the US due to demand. Grange is but one wine that comes out of Oz and as I said, it does not necessarily have to come from old vines.

I fully appreciate the work and cost involved in producing old vine material, but they are still Zin grapes. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, no matter how good the sow. That is the problem you face.

In terms of cropping levels, in Oz the red cropping levels are different to the numbers you quoted.

The red stuff that is grown in the Riverina ( many of the cheap wines that are marked "product of SA Australia") are cropped at around 5-6 tonnes but that stuff sells from $10 to $20 approximately.

In the Barossa the average $25+ wine is cropped at less than 4 tonnes to the acre. Much of the stuff that costs over $40 is around 2 to 3 tonnes per acre. Many of the very old vines crop at from .5 to about 1.5 tonnes to the acre.

I can understand your frustration, but you are growing Zin and therein lies your commercial limitation.

quote:

Originally posted by GregT:
The fact that it's zin doesn't mean that it can't be quality wine. Just because zin wasn't planted in France in the 1700s and classified doesn't mean it's a lesser grape - there is much more to life than cab, merlot, pinot noir, syrah, and chardonnay.

But there has been a lot of branding done for the other grapes - by individual chateaus and wineries and various governments and trade organizations, in concert with writers.

But all that said, if the market won't pay the price, that's the end of the story. Frankly, raising the price of zinfandel will probably do less to help the survival of old vines than lowering the price. If critics knock off a few points just because it's zin, and you have a $100 zin vs a $100 cab, and the first is 90 pts and the other one is 95, the zin is going to end up in the remainder bin, discounted to get it out of the store.

Moreover, although I kind of agree with cdr - I understand the pressures but it's still kind of sad, how necessary are old vines for quality wine anyway? There is a lot of research in this area and aren't the average ages of vines in Bordeaux something like 40 years? They replant fairly regularly don't they? If so, does that mean they're making poor wine?

quote:

Originally posted by cdr:
Peter,

I believe we have met. Are you the Peter that spoke at a viticulture symposium at Davis (I think it was Davis, but i's been a while?) I may have attended an event where you spoke elsewhere. I learned a lot from you and admire your love for your vineyard.

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Originally posted by Dom'n'Vin'sDad:
Peter,

Please let us know your vineyard....

And I completely understand the two kids thing....

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Originally posted by TORB:

quote:

Originally posted by GregT:
Moreover, although I kind of agree with cdr - I understand the pressures but it's still kind of sad, how necessary are old vines for quality wine anyway? There is a lot of research in this area and aren't the average ages of vines in Bordeaux something like 40 years? They replant fairly regularly don't they? If so, does that mean they're making poor wine?

Old vines can/will give you a level of complexity that it is very difficult to achieve with young vines. Having said that, there are more and more examples of young vines producing fantastic fruit.

Torbreck is a very good example. The Descendants is just one wine they produce from young vines.

How do they (and others) do it? The answer is viticulture. Bloody good viticulture.

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Originally posted by vin:

quote:

Originally posted by GregT:
There is a lot of research in this area and aren't the average ages of vines in Bordeaux something like 40 years? They replant fairly regularly don't they? If so, does that mean they're making poor wine?

It is my understanding that after 20 years the yield of the vine decreases while flavor increases. I don't know if it is true but I've heard that the reason the average age is 40years is because of the yield, production needs, and that the older vines tend to be utilized in the more prized bottling. Would love for an expert on this to educate further. I could be completely wrong.

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Originally posted by Sandy Fitzgerald:
I have long held the belief that great wines are made in the vineyards. Nowdays, that belief is sometimes shaken.

I have seen, over the past 15 years, such an explosion of wine manipulation devices(cone spinners, reverse osmosis, concentrators, and ole mega-Purple, etc.)that, in fact, sometimes turns out excellent wines from not so good fruit. Sometimes, the product tastes like some Frankenstein created monster, but other times a quite worthy product appears. These devices are becoming common in many wineries, indivdually or collectively. I don't know where it goes from here, or sometime what the definition of wine is. But we are seeing some mad scientist/winemakers, with young fruit, create some interesting compounds.

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Originally posted by Peter "Vine Master":

I dare say if the varieties & history were reversed so our Great Old stuff was Syrah & yours was Zinfandel. The most influential American writers would be touting Zinfandel & we would be saying it's only Syrah maybe because it’s an import from a place Americans like to visit…

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Originally posted by Peter "Vine Master":

I probably will eventually but this is the first time I've done anything like this I like hearing everyone's opinion.

But I have written enough that I can easily be figured out; in one of my responses I did outline my history & accolades.

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Originally posted by Dom'n'Vin'sDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter "Vine Master":

I probably will eventually but this is the first time I've done anything like this I like hearing everyone's opinion.

But I have written enough that I can easily be figured out; in one of my responses I did outline my history & accolades.

Peter, please just tell me and don't make me do any type of research. I am on my summer vacation for cryin' out loud!!!!

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But what is really telling is that in the winegeek crowd (cab freaks, burgheads, etc.) 63% "would like to see more and better Zinfandels available by the glass" in restaurants and in wine bars. (Among ZAP members 89% agreed, but that’s sort of a given . . . ) In addition, 66% of ZAP members and 52% of core wine drinkers agreed that "restaurants rarely have a good Zinfandel selection."

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Originally posted by winerugger:
Peter-

If your point is that old vines are valuable and deserve to be preserved, then I agree with you 100%.

If your point is to justify the winery to which you sell or your own winery charging $100+ for your old vine Zin, there are two answers:
1. If it's not your winery, you don't get to make that decision. Once your contract is up, if you want to ask for $10,000/T+, that's certainly your prerogative.
2. If it is your winery, go for it. The market will decide.

If you'd like subsidies, property preserves, etc, to protect old vines, then my personal opinion is, hell no. Not with my tax dollars. If vineyard owners want to top-work to PN or CS, or tear out their vines and plant Gravensteins again, or even sell to someone developing a "Big Lebowski" theme park, in my opinion, if it's zoned correctly, that's their right. You'll only dilute everyone else's value by dictating that the land must be kept as loss-guaranteeing Zinfandel vines. Unfortunately, that's not the way things should work here in the US.

In essence, unfortunately in this case, the market decides. I wholeheartedly wish those with 100-yr old Zin vines the best of luck. I hope to hell that they can be kept alive due to such a fabulous legacy. I love tasting the wines made from them. If not, though, you won't see me calling my Congresswoman asking her to handcuff a vineyard owner that wants to rip his or her vineyard out.

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Originally posted by GreenDrazi:
Peter,
While I have enjoyed reading your posts filled with deep felt passion and commitment (and we are all deeply indebted to you and other winemakers), these expressions and actions (and very old vines) can not overcome the fact that most wine lovers have found Cab, Pinot Noir and Syrah to be, as a whole, better varietals than Zinfandel.

This doesn’t mean that Zinfandel isn’t thoroughly enjoyed and I hope you continue pursuing this passion.

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Originally posted by SD-Wineaux:

quote:

Originally posted by Dom'n'Vin'sDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter "Vine Master":

I probably will eventually but this is the first time I've done anything like this I like hearing everyone's opinion.

But I have written enough that I can easily be figured out; in one of my responses I did outline my history & accolades.

Peter, please just tell me and don't make me do any type of research. I am on my summer vacation for cryin' out loud!!!!

Teachers!

I'm thinking that our friend here is from Lolonis Winery.

quote:

Originally posted by winerugger:
Peter-

If your point is that old vines are valuable and deserve to be preserved, then I agree with you 100%.

If your point is to justify the winery to which you sell or your own winery charging $100+ for your old vine Zin, there are two answers:
1. If it's not your winery, you don't get to make that decision. Once your contract is up, if you want to ask for $10,000/T+, that's certainly your prerogative.
2. If it is your winery, go for it. The market will decide.

If you'd like subsidies, property preserves, etc, to protect old vines, then my personal opinion is, hell no. Not with my tax dollars. If vineyard owners want to top-work to PN or CS, or tear out their vines and plant Gravensteins again, or even sell to someone developing a "Big Lebowski" theme park, in my opinion, if it's zoned correctly, that's their right. You'll only dilute everyone else's value by dictating that the land must be kept as loss-guaranteeing Zinfandel vines. Unfortunately, that's not the way things should work here in the US.

In essence, unfortunately in this case, the market decides. I wholeheartedly wish those with 100-yr old Zin vines the best of luck. I hope to hell that they can be kept alive due to such a fabulous legacy. I love tasting the wines made from them. If not, though, you won't see me calling my Congresswoman asking her to handcuff a vineyard owner that wants to rip his or her vineyard out.

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Baker:
Our most expensive vineyard source is the 90-year-old Benito Dusi zinfandel ranch. And it is a pleasure to have that relationship. We feel the fruit is worth every penny and actually look forward to delivering our annual check each January.

'Drazi, I wouldn't be so quick to speak for 'most wine lovers'. Consumer polls conducted by Full Glass Research have shown that most wine lovers speak with forked tongue when it comes to zinfandel. Most wine lovers claim they would not choose zinfandel with a fine meal, but they also state that it is versatile with food, and woefully under-represented in restaurants, both of which are true. Consumers have also demonstrated, through online tasting notes and comments, that they frequently perceive classically-styled zinfandels as having more longevity than many expensive modern-styled pinots.

Speaking as a zinfandel/Rhone producer, I can assure you that traditional wine media is missing the curve when it comes to zinfandel.

From our winery blog, reporting on the consumer polls mentioned above:

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But what is really telling is that in the winegeek crowd (cab freaks, burgheads, etc.) 63% "would like to see more and better Zinfandels available by the glass" in restaurants and in wine bars. (Among ZAP members 89% agreed, but that’s sort of a given . . . ) In addition, 66% of ZAP members and 52% of core wine drinkers agreed that "restaurants rarely have a good Zinfandel selection."

Fortunately for producers, there is a groundswell of respect and excitement among the food and wine circles for zinfandel. The problem is that zinfandel producers have to go directly to them, because retail/restaurant purchasing is so heavily influenced by the TWM.

Ironically, we are seeing the loss of some old vine zin vineyards just when dedicated zinfandel producers are showing more interest than ever before in working with dryfarmed (old and new) vineyards, old vines, and field blends. It used to be that these vineyards didn't command a lot of respect and were considered something of a winemaker's plaything. They had quality fruit (which tickled the wm) but with flavor parameters (brambly, tannic, extremely spicy) outside the critical and popular taste market. Critical tastes are still the same, but the popular market is now driving demand for zinfandel, and these consumers do not want simple, juicy pizza wine. They want single vineyard bottlings and old vine productions.

At his personal request, we are making a barrel of the 2007 old vine zin for a FoodTV host, to be bottled under his own label and sold in Bobby Flay's restaurants. As a 2500 case producer, we didn't go looking for this exposure, this guy just loves the old vine and he's passionate about food. He's poured our ovz on the set of Iron Chef America, and for Mario Batali. (Batali later wrote he had another bottle at home with roasted squab and butternut enchilada.)

Hang in there, old vines. You're not done yet.

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Originally posted by Peter "Vine Master":
Sorry No